Cracker Style Idea

[Bob1]

Nice post Norma,
The pie looks nice.  I agree with your taste.  It's hard to believe that the air and crumb can change the flavor so much.  IMO you nead a pizza crumb with a cracker crumb to get a good hybrid.  Too flat is too far to one side of the spectrum for me.

Bob

[norma427]

Nice post Norma,
The pie looks nice.  I agree with your taste.  It's hard to believe that the air and crumb can change the flavor so much.  IMO you nead a pizza crumb with a cracker crumb to get a good hybrid.  Too flat is too far to one side of the spectrum for me.

Bob

Bob,

What do you mean by the air and crumb can change the flavor so much?  Did you have this experience before?  The flavor was good, just not salty enough for me. 

This was a great experiment for me.  I learned a lot from it. 

I am just wondering what I can change to get a little different results. 

Thanks for saying it was a nice post, 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I like the idea of using the hummus and other toppings since they go well with a cracker type base, whether it is matzo, flatbread, pita crisps or something similar.

Can you tell me how much dough you used for the crust, and which recipe you used--the thinner or the thicker version (based on the two thickness factors)?

I see the Morton's Kosher salt in one of your photos. If you used that, next time you might want to use the Morton's Kosher salt option in the expanded dough calculating tool. To equate the Morton's Kosher salt to table salt, which is what I used in the expanded dough calculating tool, you need to increase its quantity from 1/2 teaspoon.

I was curious to see how the texture would be in light of the high oil content and the increased overall thickness from using two matzo skins. It sounds like you would have preferred a more crispy crust. Is that correct?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I used the thickness factor of 0.0478318.  Since the formula was the same for both thickness factors I just rolled the matzo pizza until I thought it was thin enough.  I really don’t know that much about cracker crusts and how they should be when made.  I made a single dough ball that weighed a little over 460.09 grams because of the extra flour I added.  Will have to measure that the next time.

I will remember to use the Morton's Kosher salt option in the expanded dough calculating tool, when I try this formula again.  Does it matter when making a cracker crust what kind of salt is used?

I would like a more crispy crust if I make this again.  It was crisp, but not how I wanted it. Will have to work on that. 

I love hummus and am always eating it with tortilla chips, so I thought why not use it on this pizza.  You are right it does go with many things.

I think the two skins did go well together, but would need to bake the crust more and then turn over before putting the toppings on.  This pizza took longer to bake than I thought.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I tried the Matzo formula for the dough that Peter set forth.  The food processor was used to mix the dough.  I first whisked the olive oil and water together.  I had heated the water.  The dough was pulsed.  I couldn’t figure out about how to go about making this Matzo Pizza, but I tried to think of a way it might work.  When mixing the dough in the food processor it seemed like it was too wet, and I was sure I couldn’t roll out that wet of a dough, so I added some more flour and pulsed, again.

Norma,

Had I known that you were planning to use your food processor to make the dough, I would have mentioned that the combined amount of water and oil, by baker's percent, was close to 71% and, as a result, would not be the easiest dough to make in a food processor. One of the things I learned from all of my Papa John's dough experiments is that it is a good idea for the total amounts of water and oil (by percent) to roughly equate the rated absorption value for the flour used. I subsequently got confirmation of that approach from a post by Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank. I couldn't find the exact post tonight but I found a similar post by Tom at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38321&hilit=#p38321.

Peter

[Bob1]

Sorry Norma,
I miss read.  I did not care for the different taste when thin and I associate that with bland.  I don't know if salt would do it for me.  I like crisp texture but I also need the crumb to mix with the toppings, it blends all the tastes better for me.  

Bob

[norma427]

Sorry Norma,
I miss read.  I did not care for the different taste when thin and I associate that with bland.  I don't know if salt would do it for me.  I like crisp texture but I also need the crumb to mix with the toppings, it blends all the tastes better for me.  

Bob

Bob,

That's okay, I just wondered what you meant. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I used the thickness factor of 0.0478318.  Since the formula was the same for both thickness factors I just rolled the matzo pizza until I thought it was thin enough.  I really don’t know that much about cracker crusts and how they should be when made.  I made a single dough ball that weighed a little over 460.09 grams because of the extra flour I added.  Will have to measure that the next time.

I will remember to use the Morton's Kosher salt option in the expanded dough calculating tool, when I try this formula again.  Does it matter when making a cracker crust what kind of salt is used?

Norma,

Can you tell me the size of your rectangular pan? You should be able to use either one of the two thickness factors to customize the amount of dough for your particular pan if you plan to use it again instead of making a round pizza. I can help you with this process if you decide on a plan for the next iteration. Your use of two skins with a thickness factor of 0.0478318 comes to a total thickness factor of 0.09566. By my estimation, that is close to the thickness factor of doughs made using the DKM cracker-style dough. I used a lower thickness factor in many of the versions of that dough that I made.

On the matter of the Kosher salt, my palate isn't sensitive enough to discern the differences at the crust level from using Kosher salt in lieu of table salt or sea salt. Some people, including many professional chefs, use Kosher salt for just about everything so it would be natural to use the same salt when making pizza dough. Also, Kosher salts tend to have fewer chemical additives than ordinary table salt, especially the cheap brands, which might futher encourage the use of Kosher salts.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

The size of the rectangler pan is 11"x 17".  It was an old candy apple pan. The pie I made today didn’t go all the way to the edges, but close.  I would like to try this experiment again to see if I can get the crust crisper.  I enjoyed this pie, even without the yeast.  That’s good to know I probably rolled the dough out to the size of a DMK cracker-style dough.. 

Thanks for letting me know about the different salts.  I usually use Sea Salt or Kosher Salt at home and also at market.  I just like the taste or both of those salts.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[hotsawce]

I have a couple questions.

Was it the Bittman formula you used?
Were toppings added on after cooking, or prior to?

I'd still like to see the Bittman formula cooked with toppings on it in the oven, and the same thing thinned out and layered.

Regardless, that one looks good. I'm not a fan of hummus, but the crust looks like an interesting cracker style...I'd eat it!

[norma427]

I have a couple questions.

Was it the Bittman formula you used?
Were toppings added on after cooking, or prior to?

I'd still like to see the Bittman formula cooked with toppings on it in the oven, and the same thing thinned out and layered.

Regardless, that one looks good. I'm not a fan of hummus, but the crust looks like an interesting cracker style...I'd eat it!

hotsawce,
Yes, this is the Bittman formula I used to make the dough that Peter set forth at Reply #6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10703.msg95270.html#msg95270

I used one dough ball out of that formula and after mixing in the food processor, cut it into two dough balls. I rolled out two layers separately. I used two layers with melted brushed butter in between the layers.  I baked the pizza until the bottom top layer was golden brown and then flipped it over and put on the topping and baked until finished.  I will do some more experimenting on this dough and see what kinds of results I can get.  The dough was very thin, even with the two layers as you can see.

I can't imagine how I would go about putting the toppings on at the beginning and then bake to get a crispy crust without doing some kind of par-bake.  I haven't done that much with cracker-style crusts so I am just learning like you are.

When I have time to do another experiment on this cracker-like dough, I will use other toppings to see what happens.  I really like hummus and wanted to try that on a pizza and I didn't know if the baking time would be long enough to get the sauce and cheese hot. 

Glad to hear you thought it was interesting and you would eat it, 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Had I known that you were planning to use your food processor to make the dough, I would have mentioned that the combined amount of water and oil, by baker's percent, was close to 71% and, as a result, would not be the easiest dough to make in a food processor. One of the things I learned from all of my Papa John's dough experiments is that it is a good idea for the total amounts of water and oil (by percent) to roughly equate the rated absorption value for the flour used. I subsequently got confirmation of that approach from a post by Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank. I couldn't find the exact post tonight but I found a similar post by Tom at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38321&hilit=#p38321.

Peter

Peter,

I just read though the link you provided from Tom Lehmann about absorption value for the flour used.  Since I don’t have a mixer here at home, how do you think I should proceed when making this Matzo dough again?  Mix by hand?  I know KAAP doesn’t have that high of absorption value as you stated the combined amount of water and oil, by baker’s percent was close to 71%.  Do you think as Tom Lehmann stated I would then need to lower the water since the oil content is so high?   I know I had to add some extra flour to be able to roll out this dough, because the dough would have been too sticky to roll out, so this information from Tom Lehmann is interesting.  How would I go about knowing exactly how much to change the formula you have set forth.  I guess if the flour, water and oil are all in balance it would give a great crispy crust.

This is all confusing for me because I sure don’t know all the things that go into making a great dough like you and Tom Lehmann do.  I am just trying to learn.

I guess by experimenting with this Matzo dough, I will learn what is the best approach.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Whenever I practice a new dough recipe for the first time, I try not to freelance and I take a lot of notes to review once the pizzas have been made. Freelancing can come after I see the types of results the recipe produces. However, even in such cases, some modifications may become necessary. For example, in the case of the Bittman matzo dough recipe, the flour and water are given in volume measurements and we don't even know what kind or brand of flour is used. So, some adjustment of the flour and/or water in the mixer bowl may become necessary. In the Bittman video, the flour, water and oil are mixed at normal processor speed for about 14-16 seconds. That is what I would do using a food processor. If my results don't look like the results shown in the video, I would make adjustments to the flour and water as necessary. This can be done in the food processor or by hand on the bench. I think I would also sift the flour before placing it into the food processor. That should help improve the hydration of the flour by "squeezing" more water into the flour.

Once the dough has been prepared, I would then decide on what size and shape of pizza I want to make with this dough, how many skins I want to superimpose on each other, and which of the two Bittman thickness factors should be used. I believe this is what hotsawce had in mind in his earlier posts although he may have been thinking more about a couple of Bittman skins of around 6"-8" rather than a rectangular pizza, and maybe with the lower thickness factor. But, once the dough has been made, one can go in either direction provided that the proper amount of dough is used to be faithful to the Bittman dough recipe. As an example using your 11" x 17" rectangular pan, and assuming that you want to use two skins with a thickness factor of 0.047832, the amount of dough you would want to use is given in the following dough formulation produced using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%): Water (44.3017%): Morton's Kosher Salt (1.04516%): Olive Oil (26.9653%): Total (172.31216%): Single Ball:

297.26 g  |  10.49 oz | 0.66 lbs 131.69 g  |  4.65 oz | 0.29 lbs 3.11 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp 80.16 g | 2.83 oz | 0.18 lbs | 5.94 tbsp | 0.37 cups 512.21 g | 18.07 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = 0.0483083 256.1 g | 9.03 oz | 0.56 lbs

Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.04783; for two 12" x 17" rectangular skins; bowl residue compensation = 1%

You will note that I added a bowl residue compensation of 1%, which from my experience appears to be a good value for a food processor.

Of course, if one wants to make a round pizza following the same protocol of two skins using a thickness factor of 0.04783, the expanded dough calculating tool will provide the required amounts of ingredients. For example, for a 12" pizza using two superimposed skins, the dough formulation looks like this:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%): Water (44.3017%): Morton's Kosher Salt (1.04516%): Olive Oil (26.9653%): Total (172.31216%): Single Ball:

179.78 g  |  6.34 oz | 0.4 lbs 79.65 g  |  2.81 oz | 0.18 lbs 1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 48.48 g | 1.71 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.77 tsp | 3.59 tbsp 309.78 g | 10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs | TF = 0.0483083 154.89 g | 5.46 oz | 0.34 lbs

Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.04783; for two 12" skins; bowl residue compensation = 1%

You will also note that in the above examples I used Morton's Kosher salt since that is what you used in your last experiment. Clearly, as long as the baker's percent for the salt is kept the same, the expanded dough calculating tool can be used for other salt types. The tool can also be used with the other thickness factor (0.026905) if one wants to make a really thin crust, even with two layers. If it turns out that the amount of dough is too small to make in a food processor (which would also rule out a stand mixer), then one can resort to making the dough by hand. For those who are interested, the ingredients for a 12" pizza with two skins using a thickness factor of 0.026905 would be as follows:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%): Water (44.3017%): Morton's Kosher Salt (1.04516%): Olive Oil (26.9653%): Total (172.31216%): Single Ball:

101.13 g  |  3.57 oz | 0.22 lbs 44.8 g  |  1.58 oz | 0.1 lbs 1.06 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp 27.27 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.06 tsp | 2.02 tbsp 174.26 g | 6.15 oz | 0.38 lbs | TF = 0.0271741 87.13 g | 3.07 oz | 0.19 lbs

Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.026905; for two 12" skins; bowl residue compensation = 1%

I think I would personally try making something like a single 12" pizza with two layers, using either thickness factor, and with a modest amount of cheese and toppings (but not too sparse), in order to see if pre-baking the crust is necessary. That way, you don't use up too many ingredients to learn the answer. I think such an experiment should also tell you the limitations, if any, of the Bittman dough recipe when used to make a cracker-style pizza.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I do take notes when trying a new pizza or style, but didn’t think to weigh how much extra flour I used.  I never thought about mixing by hand because I saw Bittman mixing the dough with a food processor. I just pulsed until the dough came together, which didn’t take long. I don’t have a sifter, but can borrow my mother’s and try the formula you set forth to see if I need to add extra flour.  Also my scale here at home isn’t as accurate as the one at market.  Thank you for giving me the instructions on what you do when making a new dough. 

For the next experiment on the Matzo Pizza I will use your formula for a 12" using two superimposed skins.

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (44.3017%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.04516%):
Olive Oil (26.9653%):
Total (172.31216%):
Single Ball:
   179.78 g  |  6.34 oz | 0.4 lbs
79.65 g  |  2.81 oz | 0.18 lbs
1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
48.48 g | 1.71 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.77 tsp | 3.59 tbsp
309.78 g | 10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs | TF = 0.0483083
154.89 g | 5.46 oz | 0.34 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.04783; for two 12" skins; bowl residue compensation = 1%

I will use the expanded dough calculating tool to add a little more salt to your formula and also to double the formula for 2 dough balls.

I have another question about making this Matzo Pizza.  I would like to know what are your opinions on how to bake this pie. Do you think I should bake this pizza on a pizza stone or a screen, since I will be making a 12" pizza this time?  I don’t have a docker here at home, but will dock the dough more with a fork this time.  The top dough really seemed to rise and then fall the last night when I made this pie, even with using the fork to dock.

I plan on making the Matzo Pizza without yeast for now, to see what kind of results can be achieved. The Sardinian flatbread is about the same kind of dough with added yeast. If I decide at some point to switch gears and try a Sardinian flatbread known as carta musica with the added yeast for added taste to the crust should I start another thread now, or just post under this thread?  This thin dough is interesting with all the added olive oil.

I looked under the Grandaisy Bakery to see what I could find about the carta musica and see it is called carta and from there I search more to see what I could find about this kind of flatbread. I searched under Carta bread.  I found this link for another recipe without yeast.  The person that had this blog, said it tasted like crackers.
http://kitchenswathi.blogspot.com/2010/03/sardinian-flat-bread-carta-da-musica.html

All purpose flour: 2 cup
Semolina flour: ½ cup
Salt: ½ +1/8 teaspoon
Olive oil: 1/3 cup+ 2 tablespoon oil
Water: ¾ cup

I saw by searching more that this kind of flatbread is traditionally made with fine semolina flour.  Would that be something like durum flour?  Sometimes the recipe doesn’t call for any olive oil added.  Some call for a sponge to be made first and then a final dough. 

Under this site it explains what ancient dough are by name.
http://www.isolasarda.com/pane_e.htm


Two more Mark Bittman’s Matzo

http://bklynfoodie.com/?p=1375

http://nosheteria.com/2010/03/happy-passover.html

http://themailifiles.blogspot.com/2009/08/carta-da-musica.html
I am just wondering if Carta musica is almost the same as Matzo that Bittman made, with all the varied formulas.  The more I read about it, the more I am thinking it is about the same, except
Bittman, used more olive oil.

If you look under Bittman’s facebook wall you can see what has been said about the Matzo dough.

<a href="http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=390294644200" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=390294644200</a>

 

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

If you note how much of any added flour and water you use to get to the desired dough condition in your next experiment with the Bittman matzo dough recipe, we can go back and modify the baker's percents for the recipe based on the use of KAAF.

With respect to baking the matzo pizzas, my preference would be to use a dark anodized cutter pan since that is what I have found to work very well with cracker-style doughs. But I have also baked on a pizza stone, usually when I have used all-purpose flour and want to get more bottom crust browning, so using a preheated pizza stone should work for your experiment. I believe you will get better results using a stone rather than a screen but we really won't know for sure until we get a better feel for the oven thermodynamics using a stone. If the crust bakes too fast or darkens too much, then using a pizza screen to slow things down might be a viable option. Or possibly go to a cutter pan.

I am not surprised that your last matzo pizza crust rose during baking, even when you had pierced the dough with a kitchen fork. That could have happened even if you used a commercial dough docker because of the softness of the dough and its lack of sufficient resistance to the expansion of the water in the dough as it is converted to steam during baking. Contrary to public opinion, a dough docker does not eliminate bubbling in the finished crust. It only reduces the likelihood of bubbling or reduces the severity of bubbling.

Semolina is related to durum flour but they are not identical, as was noted a while back at Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90128/topicseen.html#msg90128.

If you plan to move away from the Bittman recipe to a leavened dough for the cracker style, I would definitely go with a new thread to discuss your results.

I look forward to the results of your next experiment with the Bittman recipe.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I will note any changes this time if I need any additional flour or water.  Since I don’t have a dark anodized cutter pan, I will try the pizza stone when making the Matzo Pizza this time.  My home oven doesn’t get really hot, but I think I can get it to around 500 degrees F. 

Thanks for explaining how it didn’t surprise you that the dough rose while baking.  I can see the rising in my normal dough at market while making the paninis, but didn’t think it would rise that much without added yeast.  At least this helps me to understand how dough works with different formulas.

Thanks for your additional help,

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I am going to try making the Bittman’s Matzo Pizza again, today.  I used my mother’s sifter to sift the flour and the amount of flour with the rest of the ingredients came out well.  I didn’t have to add any extra flour.  I hand mixed the dough. 

I have one other question to ask before I go about preparing the toppings and baking the Matzo Pizza.  I wondered if I could use my dark 12" deep dish pan to try and make this pizza since I don’t have a dark cutter pan? 

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Since you indicated that you were making enough dough for two pizzas (a total of four dough skins), do you plan to try both a pizza stone and your deep-dish pan? I think the deep-dish pan should work if you decide to use it. It might slightly alter the bake because of the added mass of the sides of the pan, but I think it should be a good test for your purposes.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I had planned on making a total of two doughs, but decided to just try one dough at a time.  I will try the dark 12" deep-dish pan this time.  I have used this pan for different kinds of pies, but not a cracker-style pie. 

This is the formula I am using for this test.

Bittman’s Dough

Flour (100%):            179.31 g  |  6.32 oz | 0.4 lbs
Water (44.3017%):      79.44 g  |  2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs
Salt (1.5%):                 2.69 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Olive Oil (26.9653%):     48.35 g | 1.71 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.74 tsp | 3.58 tbsp
Total (172.767%):     309.78 g | 10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs | TF = 0.0483083
Single Ball:                     154.89 g | 5.46 oz | 0.34 lbs

Thanks for your advise,

Norma

[norma427]

The 12" Bittman’s Matzo Pizza worked out well today.  The dough came together well when mixing by hand. There was no need to add any extra flour today. Thanks to Peter’s advise on using a sifter. I mixed the salt in with the olive oil and water.  I didn’t warm the water up today and just used it at room temperature.  I used a whisk to mix the water, salt, and olive oil together and then just mixed in the flour in another bowl. 

I divided the dough into two balls for a super-imposed two layer pizza.  The dough was so easy to roll out with all the extra olive oil.  I rolled it out a little more than 12" so I could have a rim.  The dough was super thin, but there wasn’t any problems transferring it to the deep-dish pan.  After rolling out one dough ball, I applied melted butter to the first skin.  Then rolled out the second skin and put it on top of the first skin.  A fork was used to dock the first skin and then the second skin.  I cut a little extra dough off the deep-dish pan because there was a little to much dough to form the rim.  I did oil the deep-dish pan some, but wasn’t sure how much to oil it.

I decided to dress this pie differently than the last pie.  This Bittman’s Matzo Pie was dress with a garlic white sauce, that I had wanted to try for a couple of weeks that I read about on PMQTT.  Since it sounded tasty so I gave it a try and only made half of the recipe.
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8804&p=59860&hilit=white+pizza#p59842 The other dressings were fresh parsley and chives I picked from my garden, diced mozzarella, fried bacon, Red Cow Parmesan Cheese I had mixed into the garlic white sauce and finally I sprinkled some Italian Seasoning over the top.

The pie was baked at 475 for 10 minutes.  I saw the bottom wasn't getting too brown and the top was soon going to be finished, so I took the pie out of the deep-dish pan and transferred it onto the stone for the final bake of about 4 mintues.

In my opinion this pie was better than the first.  I liked the added salt to the dough. This pie was very flaky and tasty.  I think anyone could take this formula and give it a try.

Thanks Peter for helping me out on how to go about making the Bittman’s Pizza.

Norma