Author Topic: Cracker Style Idea  (Read 11471 times)

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Offline hotsawce

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Cracker Style Idea
« on: April 07, 2010, 11:15:00 PM »
I was watching an episode of "The Minimalist" with Mark Bittman, when I stumbled across something that might be perfect for a cracker style crust.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ9zrKQJ27k" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ9zrKQJ27k</a>
What if one were to make this as a base for dough, and cook it on a tray under the broiler quickly? I'd be interested in seeing someone try it....you should get a ridiculously thin, crispy pizza...probably closer to a cracker crust than anything else.


Offline norma427

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 08:07:31 AM »
hotsawce,

Your idea sounds great to me.  ;D  I had something like this last year at the New York Restaurant Food Show and Pizza Expo.  The pizza was so thin and crackery and the rest of the pizza was delicious.  It was a frozen dough you could buy by the sheets and then but your own toppings on. The crust was 1/16" thin.  I tried to find a distributor in my area, but couldnít find one.  They were a New York based food manufacturer.  www.ultrathinpizza.com   I would also like to try and recreate this type of pizza.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 08:35:40 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 06:53:39 PM »
The article on the Bittman matzo and the recipe appeared a few weeks ago at the New York Times website at http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/dining/24minirex.html?ref=dining. At the time, I wondered how it would fare as a pizza and what changes might be made to the dough for this purpose but I didn't spend any time trying to work out the changes.

Peter

Offline Bob1

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 07:40:32 PM »
A couple of months ago I took a 50% hydration with 5% oil and ran it through the pasta maker.  I went through all 7 seetings to the smallest.  I then overlapped the pieces by 1/4 inch to make a rectangular pie.  It was paper thin and extremely crisp.  I think if I would have left it sit to rise again it may have been interesting.

Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 08:08:11 PM »
The article on the Bittman matzo and the recipe appeared a few weeks ago at the New York Times website at http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/dining/24minirex.html?ref=dining. At the time, I wondered how it would fare as a pizza and what changes might be made to the dough for this purpose but I didn't spend any time trying to work out the changes.

Peter


Peter,

Do you have any ideas how this dough could be changed to try a pizza like this or should it just be tried with the same recipe?  ::)  Maybe a little yeast?  Also, do you have any ideas how this could be baked with sauce and cheese so they are hot?  Sounds like a great flatbread with all the olive oil and the cracker like crust.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 09:15:58 PM »
Why not just try it how it is? I think it'd come out okay. In the video, it looked bubbly and great without the yeast, so I wouldn't change a thing yet. If anything, maybe try putting on the cheese first to prevent a  "gum layer" on the dough, but not even sure if I'd try that.

I also kind of like Bob's idea...what if someone tried the Bittman recipe, rolled it as thin as possible, and overlapped a couple? That would make something very, very interesting  ;D

If it's tried and tweaked some....this could be the ultimate "cracker crust" pie....that's pretty much what matzo is, and the stuff bittman made looked AWESOME. If anyone tries it, be sure to post here. I'm still working on tweaking my oven and my pizzas, so maybe someone here with some free time would give it a go.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 09:23:15 PM »
Norma,

When I first saw the recipe, my first impression was that the crusts were super thin, small (6"-8") and baked quickly (within about 3 minutes). That did not fit with my thinking of a cracker style pizza, so I did not dwell any further on the recipe. However, since you inquired about how the recipe might be used to make a cracker style pizza, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, along with some math on my part, to convert the recipe to baker's percent format. Using King Arthur all-purpose flour as a proxy for the flour in the recipe, and using a "Medium" flour measurement method, I got the following for a 6" matzo:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (44.3017%):
Salt (1.04516%):
Olive Oil (26.9652%):
Total (172.31206%):
Single Ball:
267.01 g  |  9.42 oz | 0.59 lbs
118.29 g  |  4.17 oz | 0.26 lbs
2.79 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
72 g | 2.54 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.33 tbsp | 0.33 cups
460.09 g | 16.23 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = 0.047832
38.34 g | 1.35 oz | 0.08 lbs
Note: Thickness factor = 0.0478318; for 12 dough balls for 6" matzos; no bowl residue compensation

For an 8" matzo, I got the following dough formulation is:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (44.3017%):
Salt (1.04516%):
Olive Oil (26.9652%):
Total (172.31206%):
Single Ball:
267.01 g  |  9.42 oz | 0.59 lbs
118.29 g  |  4.17 oz | 0.26 lbs
2.79 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
72 g | 2.54 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.33 tbsp | 0.33 cups
460.08 g | 16.23 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = 0.026905
38.34 g | 1.35 oz | 0.08 lbs
Note: Thickness factor = 0.0269054; for 12 dough balls for 8" matzos; no bowl residue compensation

As you can see, with thickness factors of 0.0478318 and 0.0269054 for the two matzo sizes, I think you will be hard pressed to bake the skins with cheese and toppings on them such that the tops of the matzos are baked before the matzos start to burn on the bottoms. You would perhaps have to increase the dough ball weights to make much larger matzos and increase the thickness of the matzos. For example, for a 12" cracker style pizza using a thickness factor of say, 0.08, the amount of dough would be 3.14159 x 6 x 6 x 0.08 = 9.05 ounces, or about 256.5 grams. If you go too thick, then the crust starts to look like a Chicago deep-dish crust but without yeast. In fact, if you look at just the baker's percents for the recipes posted above, but for the absence of yeast and maybe a bit of sugar, the recipes look a lot like deep-dish dough recipes.

There are cracker-style pizza crusts without yeast but my instinct would be to use yeast, for fermentation byproducts that contribute to final crust flavors and also for the natural flavor of yeast. As with other pizza types, you would have to decide whether you want a room temperature fermentation or a cold fermentation. Once that decision is made, then you have to decide on how much yeast to use for the window of usability you would like to have for the dough. Volume expansion is less of an issue with the cracker style because the dough will be rolled with a rolling pin or its equivalent, which will crush the dough and force the gases out of the dough.

I think you would have to proceed along the above lines, along with some experimentation, to determine if a cracker style pizza is doable. However, that effort will take you a long way away from the recipe as intended to be used. Arguably, it would no longer be the same recipe.

Peter

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 09:36:16 PM »
Pete-za, what do you think about Bob's idea? Super thin matzo's layered on top of eachother....I think that could create some interesting textures....


or maybe just one cooked on a pan right underneath the broiler? the heat coming from the top minus the intense heat of a stone might give the matzo time to cook and blast the ingredients on the top...cooking them fast enough?

Honestly, I'd love to see someone try this.

Offline Bob1

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 09:42:26 PM »
When I did it, all the air was completely expressed giving the same effect as Matzo.  It tasted totally different from any pizza dough.  You could bend it and see it snap.  I agree with Peter that the yeast helps with the flavor as long as you have something to really squeeze the gas out.  I went down every thickness as when I make pasta.  I was surprised to see bubbles still popping out on the last setting.  It would have been hard to achieve without mechanical force.  


Bob

Offline Bob1

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 09:46:43 PM »
Hotsawce,
I don't remember the link but there is one on the site that discusses many folds on the crust to achieve a complex cracker style.  I got in late today and will look for it tomorrow, but I am sure someone will post it before then.  It was a chain method and sounded pretty good.

Bob


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 09:49:13 PM »
I also kind of like Bob's idea...what if someone tried the Bittman recipe, rolled it as thin as possible, and overlapped a couple? That would make something very, very interesting  ;D


That is good thinking. I have made the cracker style pizza before with a couple of skins that were superimposed on each other to form a laminate. I used some flour between the two skins but I also contemplated using small pats of butter between the skins for flavor purposes and increased flakiness in the crust. I described my results in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg43961.html#msg43961 and also at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg44313.html#msg44313. What would be most interesting is to see what the texture of the Bittman multi-layer "pizza" would be, given the very high amount of oil used.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 10:22:39 PM »
hotsawce,

When watching the video you posted and then reading about a Sardinian flatbread that is under the video, it made me wonder what was the difference.   

Mark Bittman makes a flavorful matzo-like bread that was inspired by a Sardinian flatbread

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/dining/24mini.html?ref=dining

THERE is a wonderful Sardinian flatbread known as carta musica ó sheet music, because it is nearly impossibly thin ó that I never thought of making. Something about its ethereal nature made me assume (idiotically, as it happens) that it would be too difficult. This was quoted off the article.

I will try out Peterís formula some time this weekend and will post under this thread with pictures. 

Maybe Bob wants to try out his formula or Peterís and can also post pictures.

Will see from there if I would like to try the Sardinian flatbread for a pizza style type. I have looked at those recipes and they do include yeast.

Norma

Peter,

I can see the crusts are super-thin and that was interesting to me.  I will go with the formula you have set forth and try the matzo dough. I might try it the original way and also maybe will try some kind of skins that are superimposed on each other, along the lines of what hotsawce and you are talking about. Should be an interesting experiment.

Thank you for the formula and doing the math,

Norma
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2010, 10:29:26 PM »
Norma, the link you posted is the recipe to the video I posted I believe.

Pete-za, I would be interested in seeing the texture of Bittman's recipe superimposed on top of itself to form a crust.

Offline norma427

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 10:34:09 PM »
hotsawce,

Did you read about the Sardinian flatbread, that is basically the same as matzo-like bread. but has yeast added?  I will try the matzo this weekend and see what results I will get.  ::)  I will post under your thread. 

Thanks for the idea,

Norma
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2010, 10:36:26 PM »
Yes, I read  :)

Norma, could you try two things?

Using the bittman recipe with all of that oil for the texture, try one with just one layer of the matzo, and another with two very thin layers on top of each other.  ;D

Offline norma427

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2010, 10:41:21 PM »
Yes, I read  :)

Norma, could you try two things?

Using the bittman recipe with all of that oil for the texture, try one with just one layer of the matzo, and another with two very thin layers on top of each other.  ;D

hotsawce,

I will try both methods and maybe a total of four layers to see what might happen.  I really like to experiment so this will be interesting for me.  Can't promise how they will look though.   :-D

Norma
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2010, 10:53:43 PM »
Looking forward to it regardless!  ;D

Offline Bob1

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2010, 12:40:19 PM »
Hotsawce,
Here is the link I was talking about  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.0.html.  It is kind of off topic but it helps with forming ideas.  Another thought I had regarding my other experiment would be to cut the skin with the pasta die and lattice them like an apple pie crust, between two layers of the thin skin that were alowed to raise after being degassed.  The imagination is the only limitation.

Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 07:48:48 PM »
I tried the Matzo formula for the dough that Peter set forth.  The food processor was used to mix the dough.  I first whisked the olive oil and water together.  I had heated the water.  The dough was pulsed.  I couldnít figure out about how to go about making this Matzo Pizza, but I tried to think of a way it might work.  When mixing the dough in the food processor it seemed like it was too wet, and I was sure I couldnít roll out that wet of a dough, so I added some more flour and pulsed, again.  The dough was left out at room temperature covered for about an hour.  The oven was heated to 492 degrees F. The dough was very soft.  I spit the one dough ball into two pieces.  I then rolled out the dough until it was thin.  I decided to roll in a rectangular instead of a circle pizza, because I wanted to use the sheet pan.  I first rolled the one ball and then coated it with unsalted butter that I brushed on.  Then I rolled the other dough ball out and placed it on top.  I did use a fork and pricked the dough. I then put the rolled out dough on the middle rack of the oven and thought I would bake it until one side was starting to get golden brown.  I then took the pie out of the oven and flipped it over and then put the toppings on.

The Matzo Pizza was then dressed with Hummus that had chunky calamata olives added, Feta cheese with basil & tomatoes, mozzarella that I had cut up into chunks, and then put back into the oven.  When the pie was baked, I finished dressing it with some small arugula that I had started from seed a few weeks ago. 

This crust of this pie was good, but I thought it needed more salt for my taste.  It reminded me more of a pie crust, than a pizza crust.  It was crunchy, but not crackery, if that makes any sense.

If I would make this pie again, I would bake the crust more before turning it over. I had to move the pizza from the middle rack to the stone to get the bottom brown.

Any ideas for improvement would be appreciated.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 07:19:38 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Cracker Style Idea
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 07:50:26 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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