Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three

[Pete-zza]

For more on this topic, see the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12688.msg122425.html#msg122425. An interesting revelation is the use of IDY, separately and not as part of a premix.

Peter

[Zing]

For more on this topic, see the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12688.msg122425.html#msg122425. An interesting revelation is the use of IDY, separately and not as part of a premix.

I found a mention on one of the pizza crust premix vendor's sites that the shelf life of premix with yeast is two months and that of premix without yeast is six months. Could they have a diffferent formulation for those outlying Shakey's in Hawaii, Alabama, etc?

[elsegundo]

My Shakey's premix bag is from California. The yeast is in there.

[DNA Dan]

I am resurrecting this thread to continue the "crust" conversation that has recently transpired in the Shakey's Sauce thread found here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,518.0.html this is strictly for historical purposes so that the conversation stays somewhat linear and on topic. Tips hat to the admins

Lightmeter (and Elsegundo wherever you are), are true assets to our understanding of the original Shakey's pizza. Thanks for all your input.

Lightmeter, since you worked at Shakey's previously I'd like to ask you some questions about the scraps during sheeting. Were the scraps in this tub just allowed to ferment at room temperature most of the day? Then used the next morning? I know you mentioned they were thrown out at the end of the day, but when were they generated, and when were they used? Was it just one roll to the next in the morning only? Or would these be used again at night? I assume the dough was made the night before?

Also the way you describe it, there was no "mother scrap dough" that was continually used and replenished. Is that safe to say with a high degree of certainty? Thanks again!

[lightmeter]

Were the scraps in this tub just allowed to ferment at room temperature most of the day? Then used the next morning? I know you mentioned they were thrown out at the end of the day, but when were they generated, and when were they used? Was it just one roll to the next in the morning only? Or would these be used again at night? I assume the dough was made the night before?

Also the way you describe it, there was no "mother scrap dough" that was continually used and replenished. Is that safe to say with a high degree of certainty? Thanks again!

Yes, scraps were allowed to ferment at room temperature for the day. Scraps were heaped into a pile in the corner of the cutting bench. They certainly did some additional rising, but mostly it was the unused ones at the bottom of the pile that did the rising, and they were also the most likely candidates to be left over and tossed at the end of the shift. It was an imperfect process. A Conscientious operator would grab evenly from the pile for each roll, trying to maximize scrap use, but mostly we were lazy kids and grabbed a hand-full of the freshest scraps on top, just-made from the previous cuttings. On a day where the owner was present or a manager was bellowing waste, we’d force ourselves to use all the scraps, but it also forced some undesirable characteristics in ways that operators didn’t like. There was some personal pride in nice, even, velvety thin rolls which made cutting and stacking easier.

Scraps were used as we generated them. Once the next loaf was removed from a bus tub, ready to roll, it would go through the sheeter a time or two. Then the operator would grab a hand-full of scraps and plop them onto the dough, on the sheeter. The operator overlapped 1/3 of the fresh dough from the front and from the back, tucking the scraps in where able. Then the new combined loaf was rotated 90 degrees and run through the sheeter a few more times until about three times the width of the belt. Then, once more, the entire loaf would again be folded into thirds (now again almost as wide as the belt).  This was rolled to completion leaving even width and finished ends.

There was no “mother scrap dough” that cycled day after day. By that I’m guessing you may be looking for a friendship dough flavor that Shakey’s captured in a self replenishing starter, kind of like a poolish. Nope, not here.

The objective was to limit scrap to 10% by loaf, and then incorporate 10% scrap into each successive loaf. More realistically, we probably generated 3% more scrap in each roll than we used, leaving about a bus tub at the end of the shift. Although I don’t entirely object to the notion that some stores saved the last scraps and used them again the next day, it would only be 10%, the same amount of reuse that every other loaf should get.

[lightmeter]

current dough sheeting from Shakeys - access full arcticle here : http://nrn.com/article/franchisee%E2%80%99s-ideas-improve-shakey%E2%80%99s-efficiency#ixzz1dz75HZDb

Here is a vid from Mexico (NO sound) you can see how thin the dough is and how craggy the edges are. It's a DRY dough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRGpFs4QXEg

Lydia - I clipped your post from the Shakey’s sauce thread - seems it belongs in this dough thread instead – I hope that's okay.

I can make a few observations about the vid from Mexico.

The craggy edges could be a result of too much sheeter pressure. The small sheeter displayed in the vid is a distant cousin to the monster equipment we used in the Rockville store which had moving belts on either side of the main rollers, was reversible, and was wider. We often rolled two bus tubs of dough at a time (here's a current eBay posting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seewer-Rondo-Commercial-Conveyor-Reversible-Bakery-Dough-Sheeter-Model-SSO63-/160738888720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256cc8cc10). The Rockville sheeter could narrow the roller gaps one click at a time – very precise. When in a hurry, we could cheat and jump ahead a few clicks to shorten the number of passes but, if we cheated too much, and went too narrow too fast, we’d end up with craggy edges like in the video. If the owner ever caught us abusing the sheeter (as in overloading the motor or stripping gears), we had standing orders that we were on the hook to buy two plane tickets to California to get it repaired. One ticket for the cook and one for the sheeter. It was very expensive equipment. Then again, what do kids care when the party was waiting for us in the parking lot. We slammed gears, choked the rollers and make that monster work.

Perhaps the smaller sheeter in the vid doesn’t allow small enough clicks per pass and so creates the craggy edges. It’s no loss in dough quality, but potentially burns out an expensive motor prematurely. Excessive addition of scraps or overly dry scraps also creates a craggy edge.

I don’t think the craggy edge is from a “dry” dough. In fact, the moisture in our dough revealed itself in one very telling way. After proofing in the cooler for a day, we’d pull bus tubs of dough from the cooler to roll and find that the dough had risen again to the full extents of the bus tub volume. It was very wet, full of gas, sticky and there was literally condensation dripping from the inside lid of the bus tub. A dusting of flour and a push to deflate the loaf sent it on its first pass through the sheeter.

Also, using a knife to the cut around the template seems as reasonable as using the painters putty knife we used, other than we cut on a big butcher block table, not a stainless bench as in the vid. Same result it seems.

Lastly, we used deck ovens, not conveyor and so, did anyone know what a pizza screen was in 1975? I sure didn’t.

All for now. Ask questions. I'll answer if able.

Lightmeter

[DNA Dan]

Thank you so much lightmeter. You are an invaluable resource.

Regarding the scraps, it has been suggested that this was done to generate a "signature flavor" of the product but your comments really suggest that this is none other than trying to increase profit margins. I suppose one could argue that scraps which fermented all day may impart a stronger flavor to the finished doughs made later in the day, but it seems circumstance if the real reason for re-rolling the dough of scraps is to raise profit margins.

It would seem then that most of the flavor of this style comes from the yeast, or some special malted flour in the mix. Given your description of the amount of gas and volume of the dough, I am thinking it's the yeast. I haven't come across any flour that imparts that strong of a flavor on a dough. I know the original Shakeys used bricks of fresh compressed yeast. This could really be the source of what made the crust taste so great.

Do you have any recollections of the dough prep? Amount of yeast to flour?

[fazzari]

I hope you don't mind me adding a few thoughts to this discussion:  First of all, the shaggy appearance from the sheet of dough in the video is due to dryness.  Either, the correct amount of water was not added at mixing time, or most likely the flour itself has changed.  It is a common occurrence and doesn't affect the quality of the finished product.  These are low hydration doughs and changes in flour show up immediately.

Secondly, you can now see from some of the answers former employees are giving that there was a huge consistency problem in procedures (depending on if managers or owners were present).  I worked for a company that was an offshoot of Shakeys, and so I'm sure we shared alot of the culture.  I'm sorry to say it, dough was left for minimum wage employees to mix and process.  The owners knew absolutely nothing about dough except for what they learned in the monkey see, monkey do processes of learning.

 For example, in the stores I worked in, one minimum wage employee per day was scheduled to roll dough.  A batch of dough mixed from a 50 pound bag of flour took 45 minutes for a fast employee, but usually averaged 60 minutes.  This job was done alone.  Can you imagine, being 16 years old, and having to roll 4 buckets of dough by yourself???   This is the way things were done in the old days.  How long do you think a mixed bucket of dough sat, waiting to be rolled.  Do you think any of these employees tried shortcuts  or just played around?  It was just a job to them.... but in the old days much money was made,even though so many mistakes were made.

Having said that, the truth still remains that when this type of crust is done correctly..it is amazing!!!!  But inconsistencies are built into the whole process, which makes this crust hard to do correctly on a very consistent basis.

As for the questions about scrap, here is my take:  you can use the lamination process and build a dough with 6 layers and have a beautiful dough,...you can also fold the above dough to form more layers and still have a great dough.  As long as you don't overdo the sheeting process, you can make a tender dough.  The scraps that you get from cutting skins are in themselves great pieces of dough.  By adding them to the next batch, and by not oversheeting, you still come up with an excellent dough.  It simply works....you can say you use scraps for the profit margin if you want too, but the fact is, adding scraps makes a great dough.  By the way, if you take a pile of scraps and try by using a sheeter to form a sheet to cut skins, you will end up with crap...because they will be overworked and be very tough.

I'm not trying to indict every owner, I know their were careful ambitious ones who watched everything like a hawk, but I think they were the exception, not the rule!!

John

[DNA Dan]

John your input is always welcomed. I enjoy reading about the experiences and views of other pizza fanatics! Makes me feel like I'm not alone in my dementia.   I have never had the opportunity to feel a commercial laminated dough skin so I am going primarily based on my limited experience. My experience in making dough skins were a NY style and that style is a lot more fun to make. I was once one of those minimum laborers you refer to that made batch after batch of dough, albeit for a much lower throughput pizza place. Personally I enjoyed it. I could see it being a pain for this style though.

I have only tested low hydration doughs with my sheeter and as you state it just works. So I never felt the need to try anything higher. That video does portray what looks like a dry dough, but it just performs with a lot of slack. I have never been able to achieve that performance simply by running a lower hydration dough made with just flour and water. In fact, although I get good layering and bubble pockets at my current 48% hydration, the crust layers are dry. They are not soft and tender like a biscuit which is what I recall from the Shakey's style. Lightmeter's comments here about the yeast activity and the amount of water in the tubs does lend some merit that the hydration is higher than it appears. Any results or feedback here you could share? Say more in the 55-65% hydration range? Ever run doughs like that? Would one be able to tell the difference? Or would you suspect that there is some third substance in the premix which is conditioning the dough to perform like this on the sheeter? 

I referred to profit margin for the scraps based on Lightmeter's recollection. Without any poolish or "mother" scrap container kept into perpetuity, it just doesn't make sense why this would be done unless it was simply to increase margins. I can get a bubbly laminated crust without it, so I don't think it's really adding to the flavor or texture of the crusts. In fact, their addition might even have a negative effect on the dough since they were limited to making up only 10% of the dough. Lightmeter  also mentions them as a source of hard "bits" in the skins. (Another source of inconsistency).

Consistency is a huge problem here I agree. Even with appreciation for all the experiments and variables you test for in your process, I can imagine it's a constant struggle which you've come to know primarily based on "feel" from doing it so many times.

[fazzari]

I have only tested low hydration doughs with my sheeter and as you state it just works. So I never felt the need to try anything higher. That video does portray what looks like a dry dough, but it just performs with a lot of slack. I have never been able to achieve that performance simply by running a lower hydration dough made with just flour and water. In fact, although I get good layering and bubble pockets at my current 48% hydration, the crust layers are dry. They are not soft and tender like a biscuit which is what I recall from the Shakey's style. Lightmeter's comments here about the yeast activity and the amount of water in the tubs does lend some merit that the hydration is higher than it appears. Any results or feedback here you could share? Say more in the 55-65% hydration range? Ever run doughs like that? Would one be able to tell the difference? Or would you suspect that there is some third substance in the premix which is conditioning the dough to perform like this on the sheeter? 

I referred to profit margin for the scraps based on Lightmeter's recollection. Without any poolish or "mother" scrap container kept into perpetuity, it just doesn't make sense why this would be done unless it was simply to increase margins. I can get a bubbly laminated crust without it, so I don't think it's really adding to the flavor or texture of the crusts. In fact, their addition might even have a negative effect on the dough since they were limited to making up only 10% of the dough. Lightmeter  also mentions them as a source of hard "bits" in the skins. (Another source of inconsistency).

Consistency is a huge problem here I agree. Even with appreciation for all the experiments and variables you test for in your process, I can imagine it's a constant struggle which you've come to know primarily based on "feel" from doing it so many times.

Dan
I use a 36% hydration rate on my dough (I've recently been using 38% because for some reason we always find a difference in our flours when we get into a new crop, and the increase in water seems to help).  Even at 36% you get nice even edges on your dough sheets most of the time....sometimes the flour changes on you, and even though you measure everything, the dough comes out drier.  It still makes good skins though. 

Your description of layers intrigues me...the layers of dough when using lamination are simply the "means" to an end.  When I roll a batch of dough, I don't even touch the flour until the very last few passes to get my dough thin enough to cut.  Please try this....get the dough you want to sheet, flatten it by hand, and run it through your sheeter  as many times as it takes to get it one quarter inch thick.  Do not use any flour, unless it starts to stick to your roller and then use the smallest amount to keep it from sticking (ideally you will use none).  Now, take your sheet and fold it into 4, or 6 layers (no flour), and sheet it until it gets about one quarter inch thick.  If you want to fold your dough in half again (no flour) go ahead, and then sheet this down until it gets one eighth inch thick.  Go ahead and very lightly use flour to keep your dough from sticking to the roller.  Now, this dough should be ready to cut.  By the way, I've made skins that have had 36 layers in them, and they are still tender......this is the reason that the addition of scraps to dough help the dough....you are using perfectly good pieces of laminated dough in addition to your unprocessed piece of dough.   If you do the process like I've described, you will see absolutely no layers in your dough...it will look like one piece of dough.

Can you see by reading Lightmeters description, that just throwing the scraps to the side to sit in a pile, that they will dry out and possibly cause hard spots.  Although I won't comment on his recollection of this practice...I can tell you what we do.  First off, we use two people to roll dough....one person sheets, the other one pulls the sheets, cuts, stacks etc.  WE roll five 80 pound buckets of dough per day.  We've streamlined the system so that it takes two people 75 minutes to process this much dough.  After the first batch of dough is sheeted...the scraps from this batch are added to the second batch...and the scraps from this batch are added to the next batch.......until you are done.....the scraps are always soft and have never sat for more than 2 or 3 minutes....and please believe me, the dough is excellent.

By the way Dan, I started out as one of those minimum wage workers too...and that is why I know from experience what guys like me used to do (just for the fun of it???) when no one was there to watch.

John

[DNA Dan]

36% ??  Holy Shmoly man! I thought 48% was hard enough, I can't imagine anything lower than 40%. I have been making my dough balls by hand so I don't think I can go THAT low. I do have a KApro mixer with metal gears, so I might give that a try. The batch size I make will not fold 4-6 times at only 1/4" thickness. The piece would practically be a ball again. Would you suggest going thinner to make the 4-6 folds once, OR keep the 1/4" thickness and do 2 folds, sheet to 1/4" and do two folds again? Thanks for the detailed description of the sheeting process you have used. I don't think I am too far off, it's the finer points of technique that I am always looking to refine.

[fazzari]

These are just general guidelines....I'm trying to emphasize 2 things:

You need no flour...flour has nothing to do with this process except keep the dough from sticking to the roller

And, it takes a hell of a lot of sheeting to make a dough tough...and that's why adding scraps is the proper thing to do in a commercial situation.

And by the way, you can do this with a rolling pin....I've done it plenty and in fact will do it again in the next two days.

And one more thing....you can use almost any hydration rate you wish as long as your methods are correct, so use what is comfortable.  When I make dough at home in my kitchen aid, i go for 45%, and I mix only until all the flour is picked up and a loose ball is formed.......I'll take some pictures.

John

[DNA Dan]

And one more thing....you can use almost any hydration rate you wish as long as your methods are correct, so use what is comfortable.  When I make dough at home in my kitchen aid, i go for 45%, and I mix only until all the flour is picked up and a loose ball is formed.......I'll take some pictures.

John

Since the mix is very minimal, you rely on the sheeting for virtually all dough development? I have been mixing to a solid formed ball by hand. So I think I am reaching overdevelopment on the sheeter sooner. After about 6 passes it's pretty snappy.

[DNA Dan]

Based on the great information from Old Shakeys Cop, the yeast breakdown looks like this

1 pound yeast = ~454g

43 pounds flour + 3 pound of "secret blend" = 45 pounds dry goods = ~20412g

Therefore 454/20412 = ~ 2.22% yeast

For the hydration ratio it's

7.5 quarts = ~7097.6g  and 8 quarts = ~7570.8g

Therefore, 7087.6/20412 = ~ 34%  Minimum
7570.8/20412 = ~37% Maximum

THAT IS A DRY DOUGH! LYDIA WINS THE FREE TOASTER!!

I tried a 38% dough last night. It was just way too tough and taxing on the sheeter. Came out more like a saltine cracker with a smooth skin. No blisters. I am using All Trumps flour and I think the hydration in my area is just off because the flour is super dry. (High mountain desert.) I see the numbers, but man, I can't imagine anything lower than 38ish %. I could barely make a ball out of the dough. It was an aggregate of small pea sized pieces. Not very conducive to a restaurant sheeting environment. UNLESS the "Dough blend" bag is some conditioner or enhancing agent for the low hydration.

[Zing]

Dan,

I did leave a question for Old Shakey's Cop in the Sauce thread
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,518.msg173892.html#msg173892
about the type of flour used. I have a question for you: did you bulk ferment the dough you baked last night? I add cake yeast, store brand (trans-fats containing) shortening, calcium sulfate, dextrose, Domino's Superfine sugar, barley malt, and salt to my dough-recipe-in-progress (just found a source for ammonium sulfate and awaiting receipt of it). I note it is easier to work the dough after letting it rise for a few hours at room temperature, then cold fermenting for 18 hours. But I have not gone to a hydration level as low as 37%; I am running about 41%.

[Lydia]

Dan

THAT IS A DRY DOUGH! LYDIA WINS THE FREE TOASTER!!

Thanks soo much, I needed the unexpected laugh. 

When I was playing with the homemade dough enhancers (homemade deactivated yeast and ordinary NFD), I found that you can take the hydration much lower, and the dough will roll out more like a higher hydration dough. It's a balancing act, too much deactivated yeast and the dough wont hold together when rolling. Too much NFD the dough becomes too stiff again. So I'm assuming the answer lies with the Secret Dough Blend.

I don't really know why, but my mind keeps learning toward the idea that a VERY small amt. of coarse semolina is in that blend. This adds some more machinability to the dough as well as added cripness IF the dough is sheeted and baked immediately.

[DNA Dan]

Dan,

I did leave a question for Old Shakey's Cop in the Sauce thread
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,518.msg173892.html#msg173892
about the type of flour used. I have a question for you: did you bulk ferment the dough you baked last night?

I did not bulk ferment. I find that at such a low hydration I don't get much yeast activity in the dough. I assume the flour just isn't hydrated enough? Again, I think my ratio was actually lower due to the age of my flour and my area. It's super dry. Another thing is the mixing. Without the horsepower of an industrial mixer it's difficult to completely mix the dough lower than 40%. At this ratio the dough feels tougher than my pasta dough I make!

Although the lower hydration does bubble up similarly, the layers just seemed dry to me. The pizza did not have very much of a "gummy" layer and it resembled a heavily compressed dense cracker. When I use higher hydrations in the 45-50% range, I get a defined structure; a thinly compressed crunchy bottom, some puffiness in the middle, then a gummy layer just under the cheese. This is then tweakable by how thin I sheet.

Given the numerous accounts by different members that the Shakey's dough was "very gassy" aka highly yeast active, I am perplexed why it seems like a super dry dough (the numbers from a few folks support that), however I just don't see that sort of activity at hydration levels <40% in my hands. The last pizza I did used ~2.5% ADY yeast that was proofed beforehand, so I know the yeast is good. Just doesn't seem wet enough to support mobility of the yeast? It's perplexing to me. I can take the same amount of yeast in a 48% dough and it easily doubles in ~30-45 minutes.

[DNA Dan]

Zing, regarding your question on bromate, California requires a warning label on products containing Bromated flour. I don't see any warning labels on the menu (which is where it would probably need to be). Perhaps there is a loophole or exception for restaurants, but the same seems true for Round Table which is the same style. No warning labels on their information either.

So I don't suspect they are using bromated flour in the california stores. This would probably also garner poor publicity. Could be a source of inconsistency with stores outside of the state though.

[Zing]

Old Shakeys Cop recapped Shakey's formulas from the 70's and early 80's, and also added a few new insights, here in the New Forum Members Section:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17910.msg173649.html#msg173649

About crusts, one of the things nagging at me is the possibility that stores using the current ~25 pound bags of premix are adding something else to the dough in addition to the dry yeast being added at some stores outside of California.

There were others who wrested with the question of what was in those bags of dough additive besides the people on this forum. They were the Shakey's franchisees who decided to drop the franchise and operate as an independent, yet still serving thin crust pizza, fried potatoes coated in chicken breading mixture, etc. A lot of accounts by people on message boards, etc. talked about these restaurants changing their names but the food staying about the same.

The basic recipes given by Old Shakeys Cop are probably well known even today within the community of Shakey's franchisees, not to mention the thousands of "minimum wage help" who worked at Shakey's through the years. So I wonder how the "rebels" knew what to put in their dough once their supply of genuine Shakey's dough additive was used up. Did they raise funds to have a food lab analyze the powder? Or were the ingredients easy enough to guess at? And who put together the formula when Shakey's became a national chain, run out of Colorado, and they went to secret bags of dough additive? Maybe I should check ebay to see if an old bag of dough additive comes up.

 

[DNA Dan]

So I tried a 60% hydration dough today. Made it using my malty laminated recipe which is basically based on the RT clone recipe. I must say I was very shocked with how puffy the crust was. I totally expected to have a single hockey puck after sheeting, but I did not. Although John has shown it's possible to make this crust using a rolling pin, I must say a sheeter can take a much wider range of doughs and produce crackery crusts everytime. The crust was delicately crunchy, like a potato chip, with a fairly sizeable gummy layer. I didn't do anything special with the dough, such as undermixing it. I actually kneaded the dough for 10 minutes because it was so soft.

I have been able to produce this "structure" in my crusts with a dough hydration range of 40-60% using the sheeter. The reason for doing this experiment was to observe the edge of the dough while sheeting. I must say it was completely smooth, giving more support that doughs showing "cracked edges" on the sheeter are most likely ~42% hydration or lower doughs. I got the 42% figure from the PizzaBlends mix, which uses 10lbs of water with 24lbs of dry mix. I know this product is used commercially at some restaurants, so if they make this style, that is what the bag recommends for a thin laminated crust.  

Now that I have seen a very low hydration and a very high hydration dough perform on the sheeter, I think I can say with some degree of certainty that in the low hydration doughs (ala shakeys) the special dough mix contains a dough relaxer. In addition, it must have some sort of conditioner that makes the interior more moist. All the low hydration doughs I have tired have a somewhat dry interior between the layers. I am comparing the interior of my crusts to the interior shots of RT pizza on page 3 of the RT thread. I don't recall how soft Shakeys was on the inside.

Anyone want to go in on a bag of some commercial dough conditioner?