Author Topic: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three  (Read 44811 times)

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2012, 12:52:38 AM »
36% ??  :o :o :o :o Holy Shmoly man! I thought 48% was hard enough, I can't imagine anything lower than 40%. I have been making my dough balls by hand so I don't think I can go THAT low. I do have a KApro mixer with metal gears, so I might give that a try. The batch size I make will not fold 4-6 times at only 1/4" thickness. The piece would practically be a ball again. Would you suggest going thinner to make the 4-6 folds once, OR keep the 1/4" thickness and do 2 folds, sheet to 1/4" and do two folds again? Thanks for the detailed description of the sheeting process you have used. I don't think I am too far off, it's the finer points of technique that I am always looking to refine.


Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2012, 01:36:53 AM »
These are just general guidelines....I'm trying to emphasize 2 things:

You need no flour...flour has nothing to do with this process except keep the dough from sticking to the roller

And, it takes a hell of a lot of sheeting to make a dough tough...and that's why adding scraps is the proper thing to do in a commercial situation.

And by the way, you can do this with a rolling pin....I've done it plenty and in fact will do it again in the next two days.

And one more thing....you can use almost any hydration rate you wish as long as your methods are correct, so use what is comfortable.  When I make dough at home in my kitchen aid, i go for 45%, and I mix only until all the flour is picked up and a loose ball is formed.......I'll take some pictures.

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2012, 10:09:24 AM »

And one more thing....you can use almost any hydration rate you wish as long as your methods are correct, so use what is comfortable.  When I make dough at home in my kitchen aid, i go for 45%, and I mix only until all the flour is picked up and a loose ball is formed.......I'll take some pictures.

John

Since the mix is very minimal, you rely on the sheeting for virtually all dough development? I have been mixing to a solid formed ball by hand. So I think I am reaching overdevelopment on the sheeter sooner. After about 6 passes it's pretty snappy.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2012, 08:33:50 PM »
Based on the great information from Old Shakeys Cop, the yeast breakdown looks like this

1 pound yeast = ~454g

43 pounds flour + 3 pound of "secret blend" = 45 pounds dry goods = ~20412g

Therefore 454/20412 = ~ 2.22% yeast

For the hydration ratio it's

7.5 quarts = ~7097.6g  and 8 quarts = ~7570.8g

Therefore, 7087.6/20412 = ~ 34%  Minimum
7570.8/20412 = ~37% Maximum

THAT IS A DRY DOUGH! LYDIA WINS THE FREE TOASTER!! :-D

I tried a 38% dough last night. It was just way too tough and taxing on the sheeter. Came out more like a saltine cracker with a smooth skin. No blisters. I am using All Trumps flour and I think the hydration in my area is just off because the flour is super dry. (High mountain desert.) I see the numbers, but man, I can't imagine anything lower than 38ish %. I could barely make a ball out of the dough. It was an aggregate of small pea sized pieces. Not very conducive to a restaurant sheeting environment. UNLESS the "Dough blend" bag is some conditioner or enhancing agent for the low hydration.



« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 08:47:55 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2012, 10:52:26 AM »
Dan,

I did leave a question for Old Shakey's Cop in the Sauce thread
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,518.msg173892.html#msg173892
about the type of flour used. I have a question for you: did you bulk ferment the dough you baked last night? I add cake yeast, store brand (trans-fats containing) shortening, calcium sulfate, dextrose, Domino's Superfine sugar, barley malt, and salt to my dough-recipe-in-progress (just found a source for ammonium sulfate and awaiting receipt of it). I note it is easier to work the dough after letting it rise for a few hours at room temperature, then cold fermenting for 18 hours. But I have not gone to a hydration level as low as 37%; I am running about 41%.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2012, 11:40:53 AM »
Dan

Quote
THAT IS A DRY DOUGH! LYDIA WINS THE FREE TOASTER!!

Thanks soo much, I needed the unexpected laugh.  :-D

When I was playing with the homemade dough enhancers (homemade deactivated yeast and ordinary NFD), I found that you can take the hydration much lower, and the dough will roll out more like a higher hydration dough. It's a balancing act, too much deactivated yeast and the dough wont hold together when rolling. Too much NFD the dough becomes too stiff again. So I'm assuming the answer lies with the Secret Dough Blend.

I don't really know why, but my mind keeps learning toward the idea that a VERY small amt. of coarse semolina is in that blend. This adds some more machinability to the dough as well as added cripness IF the dough is sheeted and baked immediately.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2012, 12:22:38 PM »
Dan,

I did leave a question for Old Shakey's Cop in the Sauce thread
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,518.msg173892.html#msg173892
about the type of flour used. I have a question for you: did you bulk ferment the dough you baked last night?

I did not bulk ferment. I find that at such a low hydration I don't get much yeast activity in the dough. I assume the flour just isn't hydrated enough? Again, I think my ratio was actually lower due to the age of my flour and my area. It's super dry. Another thing is the mixing. Without the horsepower of an industrial mixer it's difficult to completely mix the dough lower than 40%. At this ratio the dough feels tougher than my pasta dough I make!

Although the lower hydration does bubble up similarly, the layers just seemed dry to me. The pizza did not have very much of a "gummy" layer and it resembled a heavily compressed dense cracker. When I use higher hydrations in the 45-50% range, I get a defined structure; a thinly compressed crunchy bottom, some puffiness in the middle, then a gummy layer just under the cheese. This is then tweakable by how thin I sheet.

Given the numerous accounts by different members that the Shakey's dough was "very gassy" aka highly yeast active, I am perplexed why it seems like a super dry dough (the numbers from a few folks support that), however I just don't see that sort of activity at hydration levels <40% in my hands. The last pizza I did used ~2.5% ADY yeast that was proofed beforehand, so I know the yeast is good. Just doesn't seem wet enough to support mobility of the yeast? It's perplexing to me. I can take the same amount of yeast in a 48% dough and it easily doubles in ~30-45 minutes.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »
Zing, regarding your question on bromate, California requires a warning label on products containing Bromated flour. I don't see any warning labels on the menu (which is where it would probably need to be). Perhaps there is a loophole or exception for restaurants, but the same seems true for Round Table which is the same style. No warning labels on their information either.

So I don't suspect they are using bromated flour in the california stores. This would probably also garner poor publicity. Could be a source of inconsistency with stores outside of the state though.

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2012, 01:24:04 PM »
Old Shakeys Cop recapped Shakey's formulas from the 70's and early 80's, and also added a few new insights, here in the New Forum Members Section:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17910.msg173649.html#msg173649

About crusts, one of the things nagging at me is the possibility that stores using the current ~25 pound bags of premix are adding something else to the dough in addition to the dry yeast being added at some stores outside of California.

There were others who wrested with the question of what was in those bags of dough additive besides the people on this forum. They were the Shakey's franchisees who decided to drop the franchise and operate as an independent, yet still serving thin crust pizza, fried potatoes coated in chicken breading mixture, etc. A lot of accounts by people on message boards, etc. talked about these restaurants changing their names but the food staying about the same.

The basic recipes given by Old Shakeys Cop are probably well known even today within the community of Shakey's franchisees, not to mention the thousands of "minimum wage help" who worked at Shakey's through the years. So I wonder how the "rebels" knew what to put in their dough once their supply of genuine Shakey's dough additive was used up. Did they raise funds to have a food lab analyze the powder? Or were the ingredients easy enough to guess at? And who put together the formula when Shakey's became a national chain, run out of Colorado, and they went to secret bags of dough additive? Maybe I should check ebay to see if an old bag of dough additive comes up.

 


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2012, 09:14:54 PM »
So I tried a 60% hydration dough today. Made it using my malty laminated recipe which is basically based on the RT clone recipe. I must say I was very shocked with how puffy the crust was. I totally expected to have a single hockey puck after sheeting, but I did not. Although John has shown it's possible to make this crust using a rolling pin, I must say a sheeter can take a much wider range of doughs and produce crackery crusts everytime. The crust was delicately crunchy, like a potato chip, with a fairly sizeable gummy layer. I didn't do anything special with the dough, such as undermixing it. I actually kneaded the dough for 10 minutes because it was so soft.

I have been able to produce this "structure" in my crusts with a dough hydration range of 40-60% using the sheeter. The reason for doing this experiment was to observe the edge of the dough while sheeting. I must say it was completely smooth, giving more support that doughs showing "cracked edges" on the sheeter are most likely ~42% hydration or lower doughs. I got the 42% figure from the PizzaBlends mix, which uses 10lbs of water with 24lbs of dry mix. I know this product is used commercially at some restaurants, so if they make this style, that is what the bag recommends for a thin laminated crust.  

Now that I have seen a very low hydration and a very high hydration dough perform on the sheeter, I think I can say with some degree of certainty that in the low hydration doughs (ala shakeys) the special dough mix contains a dough relaxer. In addition, it must have some sort of conditioner that makes the interior more moist. All the low hydration doughs I have tired have a somewhat dry interior between the layers. I am comparing the interior of my crusts to the interior shots of RT pizza on page 3 of the RT thread. I don't recall how soft Shakeys was on the inside.

Anyone want to go in on a bag of some commercial dough conditioner?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:18:47 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2012, 09:24:56 PM »
Here are some shots from the 60% hydration dough.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2012, 12:10:49 PM »
Dan  :o

Wow...That looks like the perfect RT crust!!!!! But I wouldn't be able to tell without biting down into it.... I know I want to. I'm drooling. :P

Just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In the pic with the bubble, I'm not seeing a gummy layer ??? The technical definition of "Gummy layer" is a gelatinzed layer that is kinda grey and translucent that is below the moistened sauce layer. Is that what you got?

My bet is if you go to a lower hydration that textually you'll get "modern day Shakey"s" which to my palate was horribly dry and in addition if you went with several very thin layers you'd get "Old Skool StrawHat".

Wishing I had a sheeter  :( but very glad you have one  :)
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2012, 12:25:38 PM »
Thanks for the compliments Lydia. I guess by "gummy layer" I am talking about layers where there is little to no separation. This typically happens in the middle of my pies. The way the laminated crust seems to form in the oven (yes I continuously watch all my pies cook!) is from the rim of the pie towards the center. The whole thing will puff up a bit, then at about 1/2 cooking time the rim gets larger bubbles which are more isolated, then they move towards the center - but only a little bit. I feel the missing link I still don't have right is the oven. I am using a convection bluestar oven @ 550 ish, but there isn't a lot of top heat to really singe the top. I think this top heat is required to get the center of the pies to bubble up more. John your thoughts on this? You can also tell the top heat is lacking in my pies due to the lack of singe on the toppings. It's minimal at best. Use the broiler you say, well the broiler on this model oven is the worst piece of crap I have ever used. I am contemplating getting a dual element PX-16 or similar but I am concerned about bubbles filling up the oven and burning on the top element. I know the Chinese Sage models of this style have a small window in them, but I don't think they put out the same amount of heat as the baker's pride models. Another possibility is I don't have a thick enough pizza stone to transfer the right amount of heat. I am using a 1/2 stone, nothing special.

The shot of the interior is after the slice has had a few bites taken on it. So what you are looking at is the last third of the slice. I was trying to get the interior up close so the moistness could be seen. Again comparing to the interior pics of the RT slices I posted years ago, it's far from it. I think the next step is to take the lower hydrations ~42% or lower and play with some conditioners to make them more slack. This way you get the bubbling effect of the low hydration but the workability of a higher hydration dough. When I did the 40% low hydration dough I had to move it through the sheeter so many times that it developed too much. It's a delicate balancing act with the sheeter because you can really "knead" the dough a lot with successive passes easily.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 12:28:35 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Lydia

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2012, 12:59:34 PM »
If it helps

The last time I had "Old Skool Shakey's" was somewhere around 1995-96. This Shakey's was ran by a couple who had been with the franchise for a very long time. The crust had been how I always remembered it from the 70's on. The internal structure had lots of dry leathery layers, not tough and not insipid. Visually its like when you tear apart a RT crust, and see the craggly fragments, but drier than RT with a bit more tooth. I would compare it to a pita.  I want to say it had more chewiness than RT but, I'm not sure that is completely correct. You see, the top layers were tender like RTs and the bottom crust texture might best be described as being like the chewy outer crust of some french breads, but not particularly crispy. The bottom crust color had a deeper, more consistent browning, like you'd see with the use of milk, malt extract or higher oven temps. on firebrick. But the edges and rim didn't have this browning, so I say malt extract is out.

Hope this makes sense  ???
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2012, 01:06:06 PM »
I get what you're saying. The description of the "leathery" layers is exactly what I observed on the 40% hydration dough. When I experimented with the ingredients in my malty beer crust, I found the using more NF dry milk gave the crust less crisp, more tooth. The other thing here is the low hydration dough didn't have as much bottom crunch as the 60% hydration dough. So I think the amount of water being cooked or not cooked out of the crust while cooking determines a lot of the crunch factor.

Is that franchise still in business? I might make it out there when I am in Cali this summer.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #65 on: February 29, 2012, 07:40:42 AM »
Thanks for the compliments Lydia. I guess by "gummy layer" I am talking about layers where there is little to no separation. This typically happens in the middle of my pies. The way the laminated crust seems to form in the oven (yes I continuously watch all my pies cook!) is from the rim of the pie towards the center. The whole thing will puff up a bit, then at about 1/2 cooking time the rim gets larger bubbles which are more isolated, then they move towards the center - but only a little bit. I feel the missing link I still don't have right is the oven. I am using a convection bluestar oven @ 550 ish, but there isn't a lot of top heat to really singe the top. I think this top heat is required to get the center of the pies to bubble up more. John your thoughts on this? You can also tell the top heat is lacking in my pies due to the lack of singe on the toppings. It's minimal at best. Use the broiler you say, well the broiler on this model oven is the worst piece of crap I have ever used. I am contemplating getting a dual element PX-16 or similar but I am concerned about bubbles filling up the oven and burning on the top element. I know the Chinese Sage models of this style have a small window in them, but I don't think they put out the same amount of heat as the baker's pride models. Another possibility is I don't have a thick enough pizza stone to transfer the right amount of heat. I am using a 1/2 stone, nothing special.

The shot of the interior is after the slice has had a few bites taken on it. So what you are looking at is the last third of the slice. I was trying to get the interior up close so the moistness could be seen. Again comparing to the interior pics of the RT slices I posted years ago, it's far from it. I think the next step is to take the lower hydrations ~42% or lower and play with some conditioners to make them more slack. This way you get the bubbling effect of the low hydration but the workability of a higher hydration dough. When I did the 40% low hydration dough I had to move it through the sheeter so many times that it developed too much. It's a delicate balancing act with the sheeter because you can really "knead" the dough a lot with successive passes easily.

Dan
Here is a conversation I shared with Peter and Tom Lehmann yesterday.  Although it isn't exactly the type of crust you or I are after, the techniques and reasoning are very important:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17956.0.html

While I had asked Peter for any info he could give me regarding low hydrations and cracker doughs and was waiting for a response, I tried increasing my hydration from 36 to 40%, and then cut way back on the mixing to about 4 minutes.  I was pulling pieces of dough out of the mixer bowl and throwing in my bucket for fermenting.  I let the dough rise at room temp for about 45 minutes, it almost doubled, but was no way near soft and spongy...it was simply very workable.  Very easy to sheet and laminate.  Made excellent skins.

As for your skins..if I remember right, you laminate but only get your dough to about three eighths inch thick...in my opinion, that is about 3 times to thick and could be the cause of your gummy layer problem.  Also, I'm sorry I don't have time to follow everything, but are you sheeting cold dough the day after mixing?  If so, why not take a note from Lehmanns recipe above, take it out and let it warm up and then sheet it.  I've tried the method of sheeting dough the day after mixing, and found it very taxing on my sheeter and I have a big Rondo.

I bake my pizzas most generally at about 550 degrees right on the deck.  To get the skins I love, there has to be a huge transfer of heat, from bottom crust to top....good ones take no more than 5 minutes to bake.  In my home oven, I bake on the highest rack, so that the top of the oven radiates all that heat for the top of the pizza..it works for me.

Since your are mixing your dough by hand, it seems Lehmann's method will be right up your alley.  but honestly Dan, I think a thinner skin might be what you want....and with a sheeter, you should be able to take a laminated sheet, and cut 3 or 4 different skins at differing thicknesses to test if this is true.

John
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 07:44:06 AM by fazzari »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #66 on: February 29, 2012, 11:07:23 AM »
John you are absolutely correct. At first i was closer to a 0.375 TF because that is closer to the TF of the California laminated style pizzas. I didn't however account for the fact that once it puffs up, it's thicker than that, so in actuality they are thinner skins prior to cooking. I began going thinner, and the dough does get more "crackery" as you go thinner, however at 0.125 TF the dough is more crispy with not much tooth. Still a great dough, but just not where I wanted to be. So I am currently at 0.25 TF. This gives me a good crispy bottom layer with about a 1/8" soft layer below the toppings. I saw the conversation with Tom and his feed back was great. I usually sheet my doughs cold out of the fridge because I am about 48% hydration. I never thought of letting it warm up a bit, but this will be my next approach. I also want to try something in the low 40 range- upper 30s again similar to where you are, but with some dough conditioner in the mix. I just could not work the dough at 40% hydration using All Trumps flour. I am going to start using the dough calculator tool that Peter helped develop to make sure I am hitting that ratio correctly each time. I am reminded of our conversation a while back about flour moisture and how you constantly watch for that. At these low ratios every bit of water makes all the difference. 


Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #67 on: February 29, 2012, 03:45:03 PM »
I didn't however account for the fact that once it puffs up, it's thicker than that, so in actuality they are thinner skins prior to cooking. 

Dan
What does the above sentence mean.  Are you letting your skins rise before baking???

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #68 on: February 29, 2012, 04:05:08 PM »
No, not letting them rise before baking. I was just giving a historical account of how I ended up at 0.25 TF. At first I didn't realize just how much a laminated skin would puff up. The final crust on some of these pizzas ends up being somewhere around 1/2-5/8" thick on a nice pizza. So when I first got my sheeter I just assumed this came from a skin that was 3/8" or so in thickness. I did several rounds like this only to end up with something that was super gummy, didn't have much life to it. That was where I started at. Once I learned that going thinner seems to give more puffiness, I dropped it down. I kept going until I hit the 0.125 TF, but that thin didn't seem to give any more puff, just more crunch. So I came back up to the 0.25 and it seems to give the proper balance of crunch and tooth.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #69 on: February 29, 2012, 07:50:56 PM »
John you are absolutely correct. At first i was closer to a 0.375 TF because that is closer to the TF of the California laminated style pizzas. I didn't however account for the fact that once it puffs up, it's thicker than that, so in actuality they are thinner skins prior to cooking. I began going thinner, and the dough does get more "crackery" as you go thinner, however at 0.125 TF the dough is more crispy with not much tooth. Still a great dough, but just not where I wanted to be. So I am currently at 0.25 TF. This gives me a good crispy bottom layer with about a 1/8" soft layer below the toppings. I saw the conversation with Tom and his feed back was great. I usually sheet my doughs cold out of the fridge because I am about 48% hydration. I never thought of letting it warm up a bit, but this will be my next approach. I also want to try something in the low 40 range- upper 30s again similar to where you are, but with some dough conditioner in the mix. I just could not work the dough at 40% hydration using All Trumps flour. I am going to start using the dough calculator tool that Peter helped develop to make sure I am hitting that ratio correctly each time. I am reminded of our conversation a while back about flour moisture and how you constantly watch for that. At these low ratios every bit of water makes all the difference. 

Dan
It's interesting that we are basically making the same laminated skin except that you are sheeting the next day and I sheet right after bulk fermentation the first day.  I have tried the method of sheeting the second day...the skins are very good, but in my opinion they are no better than sheeting the first day.  Having said that, we check the thickness factor of our skins every single day...I didn't know there was such a thing as a thickness factor until I was introduced to hit here, but we have always weighed our skins knowing what was optimal for us.  We have found that the optimal thickness factor is .1.   Most of our skins are right in between .09 and .12.  Anything outside of those boundaries means trouble to us.  Our goal is to create a skin, that bakes in a 550 degree (approximately) oven, that never has to be touched except to check for color, where the bottom and top are done at approximately the same time, including the usage of raw Italian sausage and ground beef.  If our skins go above the .12 mark, what usually happens is that the bottom of the skin cooks much quicker than the top, meaning the pizza has to be manipulated by using a screen to slow down the bottom so the top can catch up.  It also can means that heat is not reaching the top of the pizza, so all the meat chunks have to be rolled over to make sure they all get done.  If you are an oven tender, and you are baking 3 ovens full of pizza at a time it is a mess.  If you are the eater of the pizza, your pizza is subpar because the bottom will tend to be overdone if not caught in time, and pizza will be heavy and dense.  If the skin is less than .09, it will tend not to brown correctly, and a lot of the time the top will be done sooner than the bottom, so this means you will move your skins to hotter spots in the oven to get them to brown.  I would much rather have a skin a little to thin than a little too thick...because the end product is better.  Of course, we always shoot for .10 though.

I know our techniques and our equipment are different, if any of this information is helpful, use it...if not, that's quite all right too.

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2012, 12:32:53 PM »
Thanks for the information regarding the TF of your pies. That is much thinner than the style I am after. However, what you describe with the top not being that cooked relative to the bottom is exactly what I am seeing. I want the thicker pies, so I think what I am up against is really an oven problem. I just need some radiant heat above or a stone up top to conduct more heat. There is a lot of steel in my oven, it's a commercial style oven, but the top is pretty lacking in metal thickness because there is a weak broiler mesh there. I may do a thinner skin experiment to confirm this.

How long do you bulk ferment before sheeting? Is the dough warm when you sheet? Reason I ask is I recall in another thread you said you use little to no flour when sheeting. If I sheet the next day, quite a bit of moisture had developed in the bag and I need to use flour to keep it from sticking on the sheeter. I know your hydration ~10% lower than mine, so this could account for the added moisture, yet do you find your skins "sweat" when you pull them out for use the next day?

Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2012, 05:38:36 PM »
Thanks for the information regarding the TF of your pies. That is much thinner than the style I am after. However, what you describe with the top not being that cooked relative to the bottom is exactly what I am seeing. I want the thicker pies, so I think what I am up against is really an oven problem. I just need some radiant heat above or a stone up top to conduct more heat. There is a lot of steel in my oven, it's a commercial style oven, but the top is pretty lacking in metal thickness because there is a weak broiler mesh there. I may do a thinner skin experiment to confirm this.

How long do you bulk ferment before sheeting? Is the dough warm when you sheet? Reason I ask is I recall in another thread you said you use little to no flour when sheeting. If I sheet the next day, quite a bit of moisture had developed in the bag and I need to use flour to keep it from sticking on the sheeter. I know your hydration ~10% lower than mine, so this could account for the added moisture, yet do you find your skins "sweat" when you pull them out for use the next day?

Dan
I mix my dough and let it ferment 45 minutes...it is made with hot water.  It is then sheeted, cut and cooled.  The only use of flour is after the lamination process is done, in the final passes as the thinning occurs..  Haven't had a sweating problem.  By the way, had a nice conversation with my Hobart repairman last week.  The Hobart people also repair the sheeters in this area.  He noticed we had a Rondo and commented he was constantly repairing a Rondo used in Moses Lake by a pizza restaurant I am familiar with there.  They also make a laminated cracker crust, but they sheet there dough the next day.  He said there process just rips up the machine.  Soooo, if your are convinced this is the way to go, how about trying mixing your dough very loosely, and immediately refrigerating, and then pulling it out the next day 2 hours prior to sheeting...I'd bet this would be easier dough to sheet.

In regards to making a thicker pizza, I'm thinking you will have to bake in a cooler oven, because the bottom will be done way before the top, or bake in a pan of some kind....the goal is always to have the bottom and top done at the same time.

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2012, 03:08:07 PM »
John, Just did the calculation on my latest dough to get a more accurate measurement of the TF and the skin came out 0.098 TF which is essentially similar to what you're doing. This equates to roughly 1/10", but it really seems thicker than that. Not sure if I am calculating this correctly. I have a skin weight of 1lb 3 3/4 oz, or 19.75 oz. Diameter of the pie is 16" so R = 8". I used (19.75)/(3.14x8x8) and it comes out to 0.098278. The skin measures about 1/8 inch or so, so I don't know what the deal is. Perhaps I am sheeting thinner than I realize or using a ruler is just HIGHLY inaccurate. It also seems like if you drive down the thickness in one huge jump lower on the sheeter, the strain on the rollers gives a slightly thicker skin unless you pass it at that thickness a few times. I'm sure there's some tension rod on there that lets the rollers slack a bit if the dough is too thick for that pass. Anyway, didn't get to try the bulk ferment -> sheet tidbit you gave me previously because I have a dough conditioner experiment going. It's on the list to try.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2012, 11:37:50 PM »
John, Just did the calculation on my latest dough to get a more accurate measurement of the TF and the skin came out 0.098 TF which is essentially similar to what you're doing. This equates to roughly 1/10", but it really seems thicker than that. Not sure if I am calculating this correctly. I have a skin weight of 1lb 3 3/4 oz, or 19.75 oz. Diameter of the pie is 16" so R = 8". I used (19.75)/(3.14x8x8) and it comes out to 0.098278. The skin measures about 1/8 inch or so, so I don't know what the deal is. Perhaps I am sheeting thinner than I realize or using a ruler is just HIGHLY inaccurate. It also seems like if you drive down the thickness in one huge jump lower on the sheeter, the strain on the rollers gives a slightly thicker skin unless you pass it at that thickness a few times. I'm sure there's some tension rod on there that lets the rollers slack a bit if the dough is too thick for that pass. Anyway, didn't get to try the bulk ferment -> sheet tidbit you gave me previously because I have a dough conditioner experiment going. It's on the list to try.

Good job Dan
I might be wrong, but I don't think the thickness factor has anything to do with the measured height of your skin..after all the thickness factor is measured in ounce per inch squared, while the height is measure in inches...not comparable.  I made the same mistake once and Peter explained it to me.  I also hope that you keep good records of your experiments....so that when you find the exact thickness factor you are looking for, you will know exactly what you have to do to sheet that dough, given the changes you will experience in flours, fermentation, etc.  You will find that some dough will "feel" heavy, or another one "light", but you have to use something to be consistent....we use a scale, and we feel it's the best way to go.  good work Dan

John

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2012, 11:46:38 PM »
John,

That was an excellent post. You are very good at expressing and sharing your knowledge, thank you.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"