Author Topic: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three  (Read 44754 times)

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2012, 12:06:05 AM »
John, what I have been doing is I have a lock on the sheeter setting. So I physically can't move the thickness adjustment past a certain point. If I drive down to this postion in 1-2 passes, I can tell the skin is a little thicker due to the roller tension release. If I do say 1-2 passes AT the lowest setting, I get pretty much the same pie every time based on using a ruler.

Thanks for pointing out the error in using the TF calculation based on weight. I see now that it will be completely different for varying hydrations, flour types, etc. I was hoping to make thickness more "quantifiable", but with my intentions of doing more hydration experiments this may not be the way to go. I think if I keep the same lowest sheeter setting locked then I can vary the hydration and compare the TF numbers that way. It's all relative but I need to have some "golden standard" to base the relative measure on. Next I am going down in hydration with the addition of some dough conditioners.


Offline lightmeter

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #76 on: March 10, 2012, 05:31:08 PM »
At the Rockville Shakeys we spot checked the weight of rolled/cut skins for consistency. It would be easy to determine the original Thickness Factor if the skin weights (DBW) and skin diameters were both known, I just can't remember the weights. Shakey's sold Single, Double and Family size pizzas, which I believe were 10 inch, 14 inch and 16 inch skins, validated by a couple of the original pans I have. Does anyone recall the corporate scale weights for each size skin?

Offline lightmeter

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2012, 04:20:41 PM »
Here's an excellent quick reference on all types of dough conditioner ingredients and their effects.

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_13DOUG.PDF

Enjoy

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2012, 03:25:28 PM »
I'm still trying to digest the discussion on page three of this thread, and there may be some clues in there. However, we are at a point now where we are stumped. The reason I have never posted any of the recipes we used for dough is because they don't taste like samples of corporate Shakey's pizza. Sure, our starting point was ingredients lists off the bags and recipes for cracker and American-style pizza found on this website. We made 11 batches of dough using the variants of malty laminated beer pizza dough that DNA Dan posted. We thought it was tasty and had a lot of fun when trying to buy Olde English malt liquor. Most of the stores around here don't carry it and they laughed at us. We finally found it in the downscale parts of town (pack your Uzzi). However, a delivery of Shakey's pizza in the fall showed that Olde English 800 was not a good match.

A big difference between the genuine Shakey's pizza and our clones is that the Shakey's emits a unique aroma when reheating it. But we can't place the smell. We finally tried narrowing it down by disassembling these large size pepperoni pizzas. We defrosted our samples, then removed the pepperoni slices. Next, we scraped the cheese and sauce off and transferred them to Camillo's pizza crusts found at Dollar Tree. (They are made by the Mama Mary folks for a lot less money.) The sauce/cheese on Camillo's crusts and the Shakey's crusts were reheated separately at 400 degrees F for 10 minutes.

The aroma turned out to be coming from the crusts. But we can't place it. I can place the aroma (or stink) coming from Wonder Bread white bread factories, Cinnabon stores and kiosks, a rye bread plant like Pechter's in Harrison, NJ, brownies in a home oven, garbage dumps, and unmodified sewage treatment plants. But this aroma eludes us. If we get real close to the reheated dough, there is a faint hint of an herb like basil. But it could just be that it leached from the sauce into the crust. The unique taste is throughout the entire dough, as we still taste it on the edges where there was no sauce, cheese, or pepperoni.

We tried some Mellow Mushroom pizza (due to the extensive discussion of their flavored crust here). That reheated pizza did not emit a similar aroma. Some of the ideas we are kicking around: It could be technique, such as not adding any scrap dough. The corporate Shakey's are adding something to the bagged mix. The bagged mix may have something that does not need to be declared, so they don't list it. The shortening they add to the bagged mix may be flavored. It could be one of the dough additives that Lightmeter provided a link to a list of. I am reminded of a similar case with the Subway sandwich shops chain. They bake their own bread from frozen dough. They do publish their list of ingredients. Their doughs contain a lot of the products found in Lallemand's white paper. If you pass their shops, you can often smell baking bread. But it is a stink more than an aroma. Google Subway Sandwich Shop Smell. Employees, patrons and nearby residents complain the smell gets in your clothes.

Enclosed are photos of the bottom of the sample. The "high water marks" were caused by ice crystals. This is a quarter of the pie, selected because the slices were not completely cut through. They were baked in a conveyor oven, and if any corn meal was used, it fell off by the time we defrosted it.

Can anybody suggest a source of that aroma?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 01:26:13 PM by Zing »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2012, 03:45:47 PM »
The malty laminated crust I threw out there is just a more flavored crust. Actually I agree with you that it's completely different. It is better than just flour, dry milk, water, shortening, salt and sugar mixed as listed on the bag. Perhaps that's why they don't care about listing the ingredients?

Having said that, I completely agree with your findings that there is something very distinct in these doughs. I have been to many proclaimed pizza parlours that exhibit this flavor in their crust and there is nothing at the retail level that I have been able to find to replicate it. Many people will argue that it's the excessive use of fresh compressed yeast (Particularly the kind made by Budweiser back in the 70's and 80's). I think for some places this is probably the case, but I've tried cultured fresh yeast myself and the results are just sub-par. It does give more flavor to the dough, but it isn't the same flavour that permeates these doughs or entire restaurants as you describe. In addition, if the shakey's mix is now "just add water", then this really negates this as a possibility.

IMO, this is an additive of some kind. Not necessarily a trade secret because I have been to several independent places that have a similar crust flavor profile. I suspect this is only available through commercial suppliers. It's akin to a great bakery, everyone knows they use flour, yeast and water, but mix that at home and you get something completely different. I understand that commercial techniques are just plain different at many levels, but this flavor goes beyond technique. There's something "else" in the dough.

Here's an example of some items you can only find commercially:
http://www.lallemand.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/B-I-11-en.pdf

These guys almost have a complete monopoly on the yeast market:
http://www.lallemand.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/BYI-Eur-09-en.pdf

Just look at some of those old world brands.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 10:51:50 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2012, 01:22:55 PM »
My neighbor opined that the taste of corporate Shakey's crust reminded him of Stella D'oro bread sticks. So, I bought their Sesame variety. Beside the enriched flour and sesame seeds, the only ingredients listed are soybean oil, corn and malt syrup, salt and yeast. No water. So, I went for broke. I replaced our one pound of flour starting point with 13 ounces of flour and 3 ounces of malt powder packed by SeoulTrading USA Company of Englewood, NJ. It has the grind of flour. After refrigerating the dough for 20 hours, the dough would tear very easily. It baked up without an aroma, and the texture was kind of gritty. The malt powder really changed the nature of the crust, but in the wrong direction from Shakey's. So, I agree with DNA Dan in the post above and Mad Ernie's post here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg175974.html#msg175974
that additives figure into the equation.

The thought has crossed my mind that they add something to Shakey's dough mix that does nothing but stink up the restaurant and parking lot to entice customers. But I don't have a background in chemistry to be able to figure this out. Here is the 2012 Subway ingredients list:
http://www.subway.com/Nutrition/Files/usProdIngredients.pdf
Breads are listed at the beginning of the document. While some of the chemical additives are probably necessary when using frozen dough, something in those lists is also stinking up the neighborhood. Yet, the list of chemicals is no longer than found on packaged supermarket breads.

Calcium Sulfate and Ammonium Sulfate are listed on both the Shakey's bag and the cartons for Subway's Italian (White) Bread. DNA Dan believes yeast activity decreases in super-low hydration doughs. Could this be the reason for the chemical yeast nutrients in Shakey's recipe?

I think a lot of the additives being discussed here were around for many years and could even have been included in the dough additive that folks working at Shakey's like Lightmeter added to the flour and other ingredients back in the 60's and 70's.

On the Round Table thread, DNA Dan posted a link to a Pendleton Flour technical booklet. Enhancing the picture for their bag of Mondako thin crust pizza mix, I was able to copy the ingredients list. It is:

Unbleached Wheat Flour (Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid)
Vegetable Oil
Sugar
Salt
Yeast
Whey Powder
L-Cysteine
Enzymes

If all of this is true and chains like Shakey's and Mellow Mushroom are using industrial food ingredient products, this presents another hurdle - how to buy them. It is hard enough to get foodservice suppliers to sell to you in many parts of the country. I don't know for how long people can ask for samples from ingredients suppliers before they catch on.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2012, 03:20:15 PM »
Nice detective work zing!

I had images of people spraying "pizza in a can" around the restaurant!  :-D

I bought some fresh yeast and pendelton "power" flour last night to give this a go with what I hope will be a more traditional approach.

The L-cysteine in the mondako flour is most likely a PZ-44 type conditioner blended in the flour. Interesting that they use a conditioner in a flour that isn't as strong as the power or all trumps "hi-gluten" varieties I have been playing with. At a typical hydration of 48-50% I don't find the doughs difficult to work with. It may be different if you're working 25-35lbs of dough at one time in a restaurant. I just can't imagine PZ44 in mondako at 48% hydration. Seems like the dough would be very slack.

In regard to malt powder, this too is a dough conditioner and will make the dough have more slack. I did not care for the sweetness it imparted on my doughs, but perhaps I should have omitted the sugar altogether. To me, the taste is like putting honey in your dough, but performance-wise, it is very different than honey.

Zing Quote "DNA Dan believes yeast activity decreases in super-low hydration doughs. "

This is just my observations from my doughs. It would be nice if someone could test this as well. Take 1-2% ADY yeast proofed for 5 minutes and add it to a dough at 40% hydration then the other at 50% hydration. Don't even bulk ferment them. Just throw them in the refridgerator and check on them in 2-3 hours. I get a ton of activity out of the higher hydration.

This is where I am thinking the fresh yeast might make a difference. In the lower hydration shakey's dough it's essentially a flavoring. We'll see in a few weeks when I get mine.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 03:27:47 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2012, 08:09:06 PM »
Finally received my fresh yeast from NY bakers. They are slow and I had to contact them regarding my order. Turns out they have a 3-5 day "processing" time. Which is strange for an item I paid 2 day shipping for. . . but I digress. .

I am upping the hydration to 45% more along the lines of what Peter calculated for the RT clone and what is typical for this style. I will be comparing the fresh yeast using All Trumps vs. Pendleton Power flour. Same recipe, just two different flours. Still trying to get my hands on some Mondako locally. I have some PZ-44 so I could spike the PPF, but that's another experiment. Photos coming soon.
Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
CY (2%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (2%):
Shortening (2%):
Total (155%):
500 g  |  17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs
225 g  |  7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs |
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.51 tsp | 0.84 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.56 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.5 tsp | 0.83 tbsp
775 g | 27.34 oz | 1.71 lbs | TF = N/A

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2012, 01:07:11 AM »
Here's a few shots of the yeast from NY bakers. Seemed a little on the dry side, but then again this wasn't the little squares you can sometimes find in the grocery store, this is the real deal. Completely unmarked packaging seemingly from a commercial source. The smell was very pungent, almost like sweaty feet. It also seemed to have an almost "creamy" smell to it. I don't know if this is from the way it's produced, but it was starkly different than ADY in this regard.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #84 on: March 24, 2012, 01:18:30 AM »
Now on to the pizzas. The dough made using ATF was definitely tougher than the PPF. If I was to say the PPF was at 45% hydration, the AT dough felt like it would be at least 5% lower using the same amount of water. This makes sense to me from what other folks use for hydration ratios. I could see taking the PPF down to 40% or lower, but with the same amount of water, that ATF is like concrete. Protein levels are similar, but they behave like completely different animals. The smell from both doughs fermenting was quite strong, almost like a sourdough starter strong.

Same typical process I always use, 24 hours in the refridgerator. They just about doubled in the refridgerator overnight. (No bulk ferment at RT.) The PPF again felt a bit more slack than the ATF. Quite a bit of moisture in the bag when I took them out. I laminate the next morning, refridgerate the skin and use it for dinner that night at about 5pm.

The photos - ATF first, followed by the PPF.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #85 on: March 24, 2012, 01:27:54 AM »
Taste results: For those looking for the magic bullet in the fresh yeast, than I can say it is NOT the magic ingredient we're looking for. This did add some good flavor to the dough, but it did not give that peculiar smell that Zing and others describe as being unique to the brand. I will say however that despite what many of the professionals say, the fresh yeast tasted better than what I get when I use ADY. I know I should have probably ran ADY as a control, but two pizzas was already too much for my gut. The flavor from the fresh yeast was somewhere in between using ADY and using beer. If you're after a malty flavor, I still think beer is the easiest, cheapest and quickest way to get there. You'll end up with a good tasting pizza, but NOT Shakey's pizza.

Between the flours I didn't notice too many differences. The PPF was a slightly lighter crisp and seemed a bit "flat". The ATF machined much better at this hydration even though it felt like a 40% hydration compared to the PPF. Also the yeast activity was about equivalent in both, telling me the ATF was properly still hydrated at this percent.

Game changer coming! I may have actually just bought a conveyor oven. I'll know more over the weekend, but it appears my oven issues will be solved in short order.  >:D

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #86 on: March 24, 2012, 04:51:29 PM »
I have started using fresh cake yeast as well, but the 2 ounce packages from supermarkets. I did see fresh Red Star cake yeast for sale at Restaurant Depot, but in full case quantities, only. The dough definitely has a better flavor than when using Fleishmann or SAF IDY.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2012, 10:48:02 AM »
What do you think about this peculiar smell/taste being a natural sourdough strain? There are strains available that aren't that sour and I would think they could create it like a spraymalt or dry form and add it in the "secret pouches". This is my latest hunch. To my tastes, the smell is a yeast byproduct of some fementation. I just don't get that taste or flavor in the crust using any type of typical baker's yeast.

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2012, 10:40:50 PM »
I don't have any experience with sourdough strains. Haven't had much time lately to do a global search on the things that bakers put in dough to give it flavor. My next batch of dough will have some of the "Three Cheese" powder from Kraft Macaroni and Cheese Veggie Pasta dinners (deeply discounted short dated boxes at Big Lots.) The thought crossed my mine that they are heat treating or otherwise processing some of the common ingredients listed on the bag, which would not require a declaration on the label. Still stumped at this point.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2012, 11:08:01 PM »
What do you think about this peculiar smell/taste being a natural sourdough strain? There are strains available that aren't that sour and I would think they could create it like a spraymalt or dry form and add it in the "secret pouches". This is my latest hunch. To my tastes, the smell is a yeast byproduct of some fementation. I just don't get that taste or flavor in the crust using any type of typical baker's yeast.

There are dry sourdough culture preparations available for industrial applications. They are typically referred to as "Type III" sourdough. They do not produce any meaningful leavening, so bakers yeast is also required. Because of the drying method, some Type III dry cultures also add malted and caramelized flavors and a "toasted" aroma. I don't know what it would look like on an ingredient list, but I would not be surprised if it was not obvious.

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2012, 11:38:16 AM »
Yea this is what I expected. Do you know of any outlet where I can purchase type 3 cultures? There really isn't much information on the internet about them.

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2012, 02:03:31 PM »
Nice find! Thanks! I suppose anything is worth a shot. Bottom line is I think I have confirmed for myself that the "magic bullet" is still out there.

Offline politon

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2012, 07:29:04 PM »
Ammonium sulfate is probably the acidic source for a chemical leavener.

Offline lightmeter

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2012, 01:25:27 PM »
I'm loving the recent posts, particularly regarding the missing aroma/flavor. I may have not said this before but I tend to weigh the opinion and findings here against my theorectical benchmark, "What would Sherwood do?" By this I mean what ingredients and processes would Sherwood Shakey Johnson have had availabble to him, first as a bar owner, then as an early 60s franchiser, then as a large franchiser of the 70's? I stop at the 70s becuase that's when the dough became a Shakey's just-add-water premix and likely subject to more cost-cutting adjustments and FDA requirements. Before then, it was fluor plus a small bag of sugar, salt, and something, an all white powder. No herbs, no spices. Further, ask ourselves what additives would have been required for preservation or for FDA adherance in the 60s or 70s? I just find it difficult to believe it was more than the most simplistic of additives, perhaps a dough softener and/or a water conditioner (calcium).

I've been having a very difficult time finding fresh cake yeast to tackle this myself, but see no reason to try this with IDY or ADY. I personally reject the notion that they are flat-out interchangelable. I'd greatly appreciate more information on all on-line ordering of cake yeast. There just doesn't seem to be any being sold retail in the Kansas City area.

Admittedly, I'm lagging in my experimentations but making recent progress. I now have a case of Heinz Puree ready for the task. I also have a Rhondo Sheeter converted to 110v. My Pizza oven is ready for the welding shop to finish. I just need more time and then I can offer up a bit more than my fuzzy recollections and logic. My expectation is that cake yeast, fine yellow corn meal, 40-45% hydration, a hot deck oven and simple bread flour will be darn close to my 70s recollection. Can't wait. Thanks for letting me play along.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 01:52:12 PM by lightmeter »

Offline lightmeter

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2012, 02:17:38 PM »
Attached is a picture of my recently converted Rhondo sheeter, same as we used at the Rockville Pike Shakeys. I've removed all original switches, wiring, relays and protection cages. This is a real man-eater now, so no wearing ties or loose clothing around it. The original motor was 1hp, 3-phase, 220V which was of no use on a standard home wiring system. This is now 1/2hp, 1650rpm, 110V. With all the electrical guts removed, it's now a single speed, single direction sheeter. I'll probably have to break open the transmission case to manually shift it to the lower speed gear. I bought the replacement motor at a used equipment store for $40. The Rhondo set me back $100 and did not come with any of the converyor belts or base. Adjusting the roller gap is unchanged from original. Power control is now via a standard home lighting switch mounted into the end case. It should do the trick. Enjoy
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 02:21:30 PM by lightmeter »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2012, 10:41:11 PM »
NICE! It's great to have you back in the game lightmeter!

I purchased my fresh yeast from here: http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6&zenid=2c64d224348bfdc94b0ae871a87d7e86

Don't let the name fool you, they are located in San Diego! I assume it's what any typical bakery might use. (Which might be a poor assumption?)

It would be great to have your opinions on the flavor since you are so versed in the taste of Shakeys. I am going down the sourdough starter/culture route because I think this could easily be dried, ground up and put in a premix bag. There just seems to be so much yeasty flavor in these doughs that it just doesn't come from a pinch of yeast alone. I even killed a large chunk of fresh yeast and added tons to the dough. Still didn't get any added flavor. I am convinced it's either a chemical added to the mix or the result of a TON of fermentation products.

Perhaps a long ferment with little yeast might do the trick, but timing for that seems a bit too complicated for how it would be done in the restaurant. Also that means dough made today would not get used for 2 or more days, counter to how the dough management has been described by others.

I'd love to see you start generating some pies.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 10:43:06 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2012, 03:32:12 PM »
About obtaining fresh yeast, my mother used to buy it from a local retail bakery. You might try calling a few. I can buy Fleischmann's and Red Star 2 ounce cubes around here in certain local supermarkets.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2012, 12:37:43 PM »
Lightmeter:

What part of the KC metro do you live in?  There are not a lot of bakeries around here, and most tend to cater to dessert/sweet items, but there is the Upper Crust which used to be in the Westport area but is now in old downtown Overland Park, KS.  I think it is on Santa Fe between 79th and 80th Streets.  I have not tried asking them for fresh yeast, but that might be one place to start.

-ME
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Offline lightmeter

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:42 PM »
Thanks ME, I'll give the upper crust a shout to see about cake yeast. A while back I tried sending an email to Great Harvest Bread Co and got nothing back. I'm thinking initially I'll want to get my hands on the stock retail brands to start, like red star and fleishmans since I'm guessing they'll be close to the bud yeast. Although back in the day i didn't do much baking as a hobby, i did bake a scratch  pizza every so often and never found much color or consistency difference in the small grocery store cakes compared to the 1 lb bud yeast bricks we used at shakeys. I seem to recall Pabst was a store brand at the time. It's hard to describe the feel, smell or color of the bud yeast, but it was unique and I'll certainly know it if I come accross anything similar. We'll see.