Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three

[DNA Dan]

I was actually going to bid on this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ACME-MR-11-DOUBLE-PASS-DOUGH-SHEETER-USED-/110519375361?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bb77d601

Which is nice because you can start from a flattened dough ball, then pass it in the second roller at a tighter setting. however I didn't see any screw thread adjustments which made me think this was actually an R-11. It looks like it got a gloss over of fresh white paint to make it look nice too. Who knows what it was like before they did that. When I checked today I saw the CDR-500 pop up and I thought it was a great deal at that price. I also think it's a better built machine than the acme one, however there are pluses and minuses to both. I just hope I don't have to start with a totally flattened piece of dough to get things going because it's only a single pass

Croissant pizza here we come. 

[freddy_krugerrand]

I keep reading the term "lamination" but can't find a good definition of what you mean.  It is also not in the "pizza glossary".  Could somebody define lamination in pizza?

[Mad_Ernie]

I keep reading the term "lamination" but can't find a good definition of what you mean.  It is also not in the "pizza glossary".  Could somebody define lamination in pizza?

lamination - the process of rolling or compressing into a thin plate or disk.  In the case of pizza dough, it typically refers to running a ball of dough through some sort of compression device (e.g., sheeter, pasta roller) in order to flatten and compress the dough into a thinner disk shape.  This process may be repeated after a process of folding the flattened dough disk for further compression in order to achieve a desired texture.

-ME 

[DNA Dan]

I received my sheeter today and all I can say is    I think this is the golden ticket! 3/4 HP and 3.5" rollers seems to have plenty of umpff to push a low hydration dough. I made a test dough tonight without the dry milk since I am waiting for that to be delivered. I will know in a few hours how well it performs. This already seems like quite a different process than using a rolling pin. 

Regarding the Shakeys recipe what do you think about adding straight malted milk for getting that yeasty flavor profile? I am sure a lot of the flavor development will come from being in the cooler overnight, but I am wondering just how much contribution to the profile comes from scrap pieces of dough. Those must be some highly flavored bits in there. I can't keep a "mother dough" of scraps going indefinitely or else I would want to make pizza every night!

[norma427]

I received my sheeter today and all I can say is    I think this is the golden ticket!

DNA Dan,

Best of luck!    Sounds like you are going to have fun for a long while.

Norma

[Mad_Ernie]

I received my sheeter today and all I can say is    I think this is the golden ticket! 3/4 HP and 3.5" rollers seems to have plenty of umpff to push a low hydration dough. I made a test dough tonight without the dry milk since I am waiting for that to be delivered. I will know in a few hours how well it performs. This already seems like quite a different process than using a rolling pin. 

Regarding the Shakeys recipe what do you think about adding straight malted milk for getting that yeasty flavor profile? I am sure a lot of the flavor development will come from being in the cooler overnight, but I am wondering just how much contribution to the profile comes from scrap pieces of dough. Those must be some highly flavored bits in there. I can't keep a "mother dough" of scraps going indefinitely or else I would want to make pizza every night!

Dan:

I hear what you are saying about the malted milk and the 'yeasty flavor'.  I have a tendency to doubt if that will help a lot, but the only sure way to know is to try it.  One thing I have been finding in my experiments is the fat (shortening) plays such a key role.  I am trying a new recipe tonight with 3.5% shortening (Crisco) and 42% hydration.  I noticed just by removing the dough from the food processor (~5-6 minutes) that it was warm and quite malleable, which makes up for the low hydration instead of leaving it in a pile of dry crumbs.  After an overnight in the fridge, I am going to try this out tonight on a pizza stone in my wimpy oven and see how it goes (no sheeter - lots of rolling and folding).  I was going to try putting it on my 2stone grill, but we're experiencing too much spring rain.

I also hear you about the dough scraps.  We home bakers don't have the luxury of making a pizza or 2 every night (my wife would let me have it with both barrels for one thing). 

-ME

[DNA Dan]

I made the RT clone that Peter put out there in the RT part III thread for the first few attempts with my sheeter. I made one dough with two different paths. First I made the dough, let it rest, then I sheeted half of it, cut my dough round and put it in the cooler overnight. The second half was put in the cooler overnight, allowed to warm up for an hour, then sheeted and cut just before cooking. Interestingly this second half gave more of a layered and bubbly crust. The first one was less bubbly, but it did have one thing going for it, BLISTERS on the bottom just like RT! Now if I could just take the best of both, I'll have a good starting point for my crust. I got a little carried away with the thickness being too thin. Going to the sheeter from the rolling pin I must say my thoughts about this have been correct all along. Not only is it easy to produce a layered, bubbly crust, but it works for a wide range of dough and is almost fool proof. I began thinking about this more in terms of the workers at Shakeys and RT, I mean most of these folks are High School kids and I doubt the dough was something that was easily ruined by not following some strict protocol. Nothing against the workers of these places, I just realize now with a sheeter it's very difficult to screw this up unless you pass it 20 times or something.

I didn't take any photos because it was just an impromptu dough to see if the sheeter really was that easy to produce the desired cracker texture. I am happy to report, YES, it was quite easy and it was the missing link.

[Mad_Ernie]

I used the following pizza dough recipe last night to make a Shakey's clone.  I used a rolling pin with a fold-rest-roll technique similar to what

To make one 14” pizza (used 15” to get 14” and 2% bowl residue):

Flour (KAAP) (100%):       238.15 g | 8.4 oz | 0.53 lbs
Water (42%):             100.02 g | 3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
IDY (0.9%):              2.14 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Salt (1.8%):              4.29 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Sugar (2%):              4.76 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Shortening (3.5%):           8.34 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.09 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Total (150.2%):            357.7 g | 12.62 oz | 0.79 lbs | TF = 0.0714

Of the Flour, use 5 grams of Harina Preparada to make the final 238 g.  This represents ~2% of the overall contribution by weight.

The dough was cut in a circle and the scraps were saved this time (we'll see if I have time to use them again).
The final result was very similar to what I have achieved before, so no pics this time.  I thought it was quite good, but still not as good as Shakey's.

I think I am going to go back and use a previous recipe I tried before using a 2:1 ratio of regular flour to harina preparada.  I found the results of that experiment to be closer.  I think part of the reason for that is the dough conditioners that come in that flour.  That is one thing the Shakey's pizza dough flour has that may be hard to precisely duplicate, namely these ingredients:
Less than 2 percent:
Ammonium sulfate – dough conditioner, yeast food – nitrogen source
Calcium sulfate – dough conditioner, yeast food – raises pH
Dextrose – yeast food
Soybean oil – emulsifier, softener, relaxer

I am intrigued by your results with your sheeter and am becoming more of a believer in that a sheeting process is far more important to the final product that I have been giving it credit.

Keep posting your results!

-ME

[DNA Dan]

ME,

I am intrigued by your comments regarding the "partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil" component of these doughs. I recall back in the first part of this series there was an extensive conversation regarding it. I feel you're on to something here and this is a key ingredient for performance. For one, isn't "partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil " essentially a trans fat product? The reformulated Crisco is <0.5% partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil (trans fat) and now its virtually fully hydrogenated and spiked with palm oils. Searching the trans fat issue I came across a fair amount of literature about most fast food chains struggling to deal with this issue and still achieve the same great taste and performance their products used to carry. A lot of these companies were sued by consumer groups in the past 5 years about using trans fat.

So I guess what I'd like to know is:

1) How do these places get partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil in a dry form to package in their mixes? Can such a powder be purchased retail?

2) If this is indeed a trans-fat, have these companies refomulated their mixes in the past few years? or if not, why haven't some crazy consumer groups sued them like the other fast food places out there?

3) Is lard really a better choice for this ingredient as Peter suggested?

Really got to thank Lydia for the Harina Preparada find. I just think that was brilliant.

[DNA Dan]

Straight from the RT website:

Cheese
Original
Large
 
Nutrition Facts
 
Serving Size: 88 g (1 slice)
Servings Per Container: 12

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Amount per Serving                     
Calories 230 Calories from Fat 80
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
%  Daily Value
 
Total Fat 9g 14%
 

Saturated Fat 5g 25%
 

Trans Fat 0g 

Cholesterol 30mg 10%
 
Sodium 500mg 21%
 
Total Carbohydrates25g 8%
 

Dietary Fiber 1g 5%
 

Sugars 2g 
 

Protein 11g

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Vitamin A 6%  Vitamin C 2%
 
Calcium 20%  Iron 8%
 
 
Trans fat is labeled as ZERO. So is the mix >0.5% trans fats and labeled as such required by labeling laws or did the mix change since the photo of the bag was posted. I think anything over 0.5% needs to be labeled and anything under can be omitted from the package. 1 slice = 25% RDA of saturated fat!!! Sounds like LARD to me!

[Mad_Ernie]

Dan:

I think you might be on to something with that lard idea.  Might be worth pursuing.

-ME

[DNA Dan]

I did some researching and found that the FDA labeling law for trans fats is 0.5g/serving or more = needs to be labeled, but if its less than that, they can report trans fats as 0. I don't think this applies to commercial products because they are typically labeled for transport only and not for public information since they are not supposed to be seen by the public.

In terms of "partially hydrogenated oils" this is basically a method to make oils solid at room temperature. Whether cis or trans fat does not matter. So I think what we're after is a solid fat at room temperature, lard, crisco, margarine, butter, etc. I came across a lot of information talking about solid oils improving shelf life of products, which is why the baking industry uses them so much. Apparently liquid oil can go rancid. I never really thought about that. Anyway, I have been trying to find more information about differences in baking performace. Certainly baked products with butter do not perform the same as products with old school Crisco. Is it because the melting temperature of the solid? The amount of trans fat? The amount of saturated fat? I need to do more research on this. However I can say that most partially hydrogenated oils are racemic mixtures of all sorts of compounds, cis, trans, free radicals, etc. Either the product has these trans fats in them less than 0.5g/serving, or they are somehow separating out the trans fats. I don't know if this is doable at an industrial scale because the process is somewhat difficult. Cis and trans molecules can have the same molecular weight, they just differ in sterochemistry. Which is very difficult to separate. Looking at the nutrition label, it looks like they are just saturating the molecules more to reduce the likelihood of partially hydrogenated oils being in the mixture. Both Shakey's and RT pizza are very high in saturated fat.

[DNA Dan]

This is good news for the chain:

http://www.shakeys.com/WHATSSHAKIN/tabid/74/Default.aspx

I did not know Shakey's was seeing a resurgence with new fonts! Anyone have any feedback on the Shakey's of old vs. the new restaurants out there? Better? worse? just different? It's difficult to make these comparisions in retrospect.

[Mad_Ernie]

Dan:

You read about elsegundo's trip to the Oroville, California Shakey's pizza location here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8781.0.html

and mine back in March here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10503.0.html

This location is old, but they have remodeled to conform more closely to the newer look of Shakey's.

Elsegundo also made a trip to the Auburn, Alabama Shakey's location which is new.  You can read about that experience here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8630.0.html

As an aside, I like your recent information on the trans- versus cis- fat dilemma.  I agree that separating the two would seem to be an added process that would add more time and cost to delivering the final product.  I can only guess at this point that manufacturers are finding a new source of fat (vegetable vs. animal?).  One reason I say this is I know in the pharmaceutical industry a common inactive ingredient in medications is magnesium stearate which has traditionally come from animal sources (bovine or porcine), but in more recent years manufacturers have been receiving Mg stearate from suppliers who obtain it from vegetable sources.

-ME

[Jackie Tran]

I just pulled the trigger on a dough sheeter! Finally broke down and decided it was the missing piece to the ultimate crust I am after. (Not to mention it's use in making ravioli much easier!) I got a Somerset CDR-500 off ebay for $850 plus shipping. I have looked at these for quite some time and I think that is a good deal. I can't wait to try the RT clone and Shakey's recipes on this baby.

This obsession is starting to get a little bigger...

$850!  that's nuts!  But then again, I have no clue as to the general cost of these things.  Wow I guess I'm luck i'm not addicted to thin crust yet...

[DNA Dan]

$850!  that's nuts!  But then again, I have no clue as to the general cost of these things.  Wow I guess I'm luck i'm not addicted to thin crust yet...

I agree it sounds crazy, however the same unit new or even refurbed is in the 2-3K range. I also cannot just go down the street and buy this style. The nearest laminated crust to me would be Spokane, WA either Shakey's or Round Table and that's 300+ miles away. Besides, I am Italian and I am always looking to sheet dough. I just made some fresh pasta tonight in about 10 minutes. For anyone looking to buy one, the "on the fly" adjustment handle is a MUST! If I had a commercial operation I could see using the ones that are more difficult to adjust, but the somerset ones are very slick in this regard.

$850/~$20 per pie = 42.5 pies. Sad to say I probably eat more than that in a year. 

[elsegundo]

$850 for a sheeter is a steal. You will have it a lifetime and if ever decide to sell it, you will receive at least $850.

I just ate at a place in Elk Grove CA that makes its own dough, scales dough balls, and then runs them through the sheeter once. Pretty typical. Same style all over America. Laminating the dough would have been more work.  But the crust would not come out as a tasty sponge.

Congratulations on the sheeter. Meanwhile I will have to make do with my Atlas pasta roller. It works but not like the real thing.
$850 is worth every penny.

[DeliveryGuy]

Hello People,

I'm kinda new here. Been browsing a lot lately though.

I find this post very intriguing and would like to try it out. The problem is the 1st part. Can someone please link me to the 1st part?

TIA

[Mad_Ernie]

Hello People,

I'm kinda new here. Been browsing a lot lately though.

I find this post very intriguing and would like to try it out. The problem is the 1st part. Can someone please link me to the 1st part?

TIA

TIA:

Scroll down the American Style forum until you find parts 1 and 2.  The are all on the most recent page.  Here is a link to part 1:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10487.0.html

[DeliveryGuy]

^
Got it.

Thanks a lot, Mad Ernie!