Grimaldi's - Starter? Caputo?

[scott r]

I recently went on a weekend  pizza tour starting with Pepe's in New Haven, moving on to Brooklyn's Coal Oven Pizza in Edgewater New Jersey, then Lombardi's and the original Harlem Patsy's, then Di Fara's and Grimaldi's.  The following week I also tried Regina and Santarpio's here in Boston.  All pizzas were plain to aid in judging the basic pizza quality. 

I was actually disappointed with Patsy's.  The crust was REALLY thin, and black on the bottom.  There was almost no raised rim, so it was hard to get any dough flavor out of it.   My favorite crust by far was at Grimaldi's and Brooklyn's Coal Oven Pizza.  The crust was so light and soft, with tons of flavor.  These two places were almost identical.  The only difference I found was that Grimaldi's might have had better tasting cheese, and the Brooklyn's Coal pizza was less charred on the bottom, which I liked. 

I always thought that Grimaldi's and Patsy's were similar styles of pizza, but they even looked totally different.  Patsy's looked like a normal NY street pizza with less crust around the edge, and Grimaldi's looked like the pictures I have seen of the pizza in Naples.  Grimaldi's definitely uses an amazing San Marzano, but Patsy's had almost no sauce at all.  Grimaldi's used a really buttery, flavorful fresh mozzarella, and Patsy's could have been Grande or a similar dry mozzarella.  I could have ordered fresh mozzarella from Patsy's, and now I wish I had.

I have found the recent posts from some of you trying to duplicate an authentic Italian type of pizza with the Caputo flour, a room temperature only rise,  and a starter.  I could be wrong, but I think Grimaldi's is doing the room temp rise.  There were what seemed like hundreds of dough boxes lining the walls around the pizza prep area.  I have read that In Naples they don't even cut the pizzas into slices because the crust is so soft.  Grimaldi's crust was very soft, and light, but could still hold up to slicing.
I want to make a Grimaldi's style crust. Can anyone point me in that direction?  Feel free to just give me a link to something.  I think it could be what you guys are doing on these other posts, but I see references to Patsy's, and I don't want that.  Maybe Patsy's used to be more like Grimaldi's.  Thoughts?                                             

[ilpizzaiolo]

One thing I can tell you for sure about grimaldi's is that they use a high gluten flour called Bloomings Best. It is blended by a bakery supply place in Jersey City I thinkl. I can find out the name of the place for sure once I get to my files. Also, I can add some other input on Grimaldi's dough, I just need to get to sleep now..... Will revisit this topic in the morning...

 ciao

 - ron

[varasano]

Patsy's has gone down hill a lot in just the last 8 months. They've got a new chef and he stinks.  It's now thin and almost crispy with no soft edge crust - not good.

The posts about reproducing patsy's are trying to get to what it was up until very recently, which was amazing and way better than grimaldi's. So follow along

[pftaylor]

scott r,
The Patsy's crust we are trying to replicate in our homes could really be retitled more appropriately to be something along the lines of "Classic NYC Style Pizza." Patsy's, Johns, Grimaldi's Totonno's, Lombardi's, and others all have coal ovens and all kind of have the same type of crust.

So if we are successful in recreating a Patsy's style dough than it will be extremely similar to all the other classic pizza joints of NYC which have a coal oven. They all use, to my knowledge, high gluten flour and a coal oven. Other than two two factors, they are all unique in their own way. It will not however be anything like Di Fara's. They use an entirely different dough, a blend I believe.

Regarding the superiority of a Grimaldi's crust, that has not been my experience. But who knows, I could have been there on bad days (all 6 of them). Or at bad times. It doesn't sound like you are a fan of charred pies in general. Coal oven pies may not be the best fit for you if that's the case. If Patsy's served you a burned crust I would have sent it back. There is no excuse for that. I would think a gas oven place like Di Fara's or Nick's would be better suited for you.

[scott r]

Great, I will make sue to try Nick's on my next NY pizza trip. 

I did like Di Fara's, but there was almost too much flavor for me.  I think I like slightly simpler flavors better.  Also they did not have that soft, light, melt in your mouth dough that Grimaldi's did.  It sounds like Grimaldi's was having a really good day. 

Ilpizzaiolo, please do give any info on Grimaldi's you have.  I definitely trust you guys on Patsy's superiority, but It is always nice to get other ideas.

[ilpizzaiolo]

From what I have observed of Grimaldi's. They have been in a steady state of delcine since the late 90's. It used to be one of the best. They used the blooming's best high gluten flour out of jersey from a place called (i think without going to the file) A. Verio & Sons which is a bakery supply place out of jersey city. They mix the dough, give it a short rest at room temp, cut and shape it, then let it rest again in the wooden boxes. i believe the dough is around 60% hydration. I would need to see the dough in bulk again (which can be seen on one of t he tv pizza shows) I also would need to buy some of that flour to be precise. When the dough is ready, they assemble the pizzas. Slices of fresh mozzarella down first, the use imported whole peeled tomatoes, preferably italian but for a time and may currently do so, they were using cheaper ones from south america. But these tomatoes were simply crushed by hand, that is why grimaldi's had an occasional piece, or chunk of tomato. Then sprinkled with locatelli romano, fresh basil and olive oil. Baked at what I would say is 800-900 degrees depending on how busy they were. the pies generally took 2-3 minutes. I would assume that the made dough at night for the afternoon bake, and in the morning for the evening bake.. This pizza is based upon the original lombardi formula which is essentially neapolitan. These guys just adapted to the local ingredients and local ovens, then what differentiates them from one another is the individual taste and style of the pizza maker.. For instance, grimaldi's is initially what inspired me to make neapolitan pizza. But I would never use Locatelli Romano, I would use only High quality pecorino romano with a fresh mozzarella pizza, or parmigiano reggiano/ grana padano with mozzarella di bufala. I would also only use imported san marzano tomatoes. Another thing i would never do is mix processed cheese with mozzarella di bufala like difara's does... it is an abomination. But the things is that he has created something distinctive with limited resources that differentiates him from the other 10,000 pizzeria in new york metro area. Dom dimarco likes it, and people eat that suff up. Thats all that matters.

[varasano]

can you riff on the difference between locatelli and pecorino romano

[pftaylor]

ilpizzaiolo,
I find your comments intriguing to say the least. A few questions if I may.

I noticed you mentioned the original Lombardi formula. Is that the same one you described in the Patsy's thread? Also, I would be very appreciative of understanding the rest periods that may be used. Allow me to explain.

bakerboy, who once operated a pizzeria, indicated he used a pre-ferment with a rest period. But it was during the initial mixing phase. DINKS, in another thread, indicated that the proper way to mix dough is with a rest period. You also mentioned a rest period with respect to Grimaldi's - but it seems to be after mixing. I am clearly confused. Could you kindly clarify the rest period issue? I am only interested in how it may apply to the pizza making dough management process and any possible tie-in with the Patsy's/Grimaldi's/Lombardi's formula.

Ciao