Author Topic: Sicilian Dough ????  (Read 58670 times)

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Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2005, 10:02:21 PM »
lol 'abc's pan'...  thanks!  I think I still have some KA Bread Flour from having last used it before the summer.  Though it's getting a bit late tonight to whip up some dough.  You got it, I'll be reporting my efforts, least I could do for all you've put in.

You know, I was thinking one thing... a few years ago when I last had a period of time where i dabbled with square pies, even before using a potato infused recipe, i had doughs that had a lot of rise after flattening it out into the square pan (recipes specifiying generous yeast amts).  I think it would either third or almost double if I remember, 2 hrs after stretching it out onto the square pan that I had at that time.

with this Lehmann dough, which doesn't even really rise in the fridge (so many recipes say 'rise until double') I do wonder how I should approach this.

The Lehmann dough should have a fridge rise of at least 24hrs, can we agree.  And I've aimed for 18 to 24hrs when making round pies.  Usually I mix it one night, bake it the next night for dinner.

I was thinking with respect to making a square pie, I would/should want to have as much of the 18 to 24hrs rising time done while the dough is 'plated' on my square pan...  something like 12 hrs doughball rise in fridge, 13th to 24th hrs plated rise on square pan... which would be room temp rise since i cant fit the tray into the fridge.
But I probably won't end up doing this, I'll follow how Lehmann instructs his recipe to be done.

I'm not sure how pizza places in NYC do their squares.  I see stacks of square pans seperated usually with wax/parchment paper.

Maybe they use 48hr-ish doughs, 1 business day as a ball rise, the 2nd day is a plated rise.


When I make round pies, if I let the Lehmann dough rise 24hrs in the fridge just like for a round pie, then plate it on the screen, it takes just a few min for it to relax... 45min of rest after this and I won't even see any rise as it's such a slow dough.

Your writeup of the Lehmann says:  "allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F" after plating.

I guess the thicker dough and oven spring are the keys to my macro concern here.


With the round pie Lehmann dough I do take it out of the fridge and preheat the oven, make some toppings etc.  next thing i know, i've given the cold dough the recommended 60-90 min. to warm up some to room temp.

with the square pie, maybe I can save some time by plating it soon after taking it out of the fridge, then let it warm to room temp and rise while plated.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 11:35:48 PM by abc »


Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2005, 01:46:08 PM »
here's my pan.  i've delayed my experiments because of the holidays.

Offline enob

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2006, 01:39:41 PM »
I'm confused
If i recall correctly most  Pizza operators in NY would use the same dough they used for their round pies, coat a square pan with olive oil, add dough and a light coat of Red sauce bake to risen. Then let cool for some time. At that point still in the same pan they would add additional additional sauce, cheese, any toppings and bake again? This is different from what you are describing.
When you say True Sicilian that not being NY style?

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2006, 02:54:53 PM »
Where I come from in NY, Sicillian pie is much, MUCH thicker than a regular NY round pie. think of the thickness and density of Pizza Hut's Pan pizza, only thicker and a little 'fluffier' (and rectangular).

Even the NY pie places here in Austin that I go to make it that way.
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Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2006, 01:02:35 AM »
I'm confused
If i recall correctly most  Pizza operators in NY would use the same dough they used for their round pies, coat a square pan with olive oil, add dough and a light coat of Red sauce bake to risen. Then let cool for some time. At that point still in the same pan they would add additional additional sauce, cheese, any toppings and bake again? This is different from what you are describing.
When you say True Sicilian that not being NY style?

yes, me being in nyc... yes most of the run of the mill neighborhood pizza shops simply use the same dough as of their round pies, just more of it onto a square tray.
give it some rise time, and you got the typical 12 square slice square pie.

as good as they have been from since i was a child,
there are more artisan sicilian pies out there, just as there are more artisan round pies.

that's what i personally am striving for.

Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2006, 09:51:13 PM »
Okay here's one pic of a sicilian i recently made based on earlier discussion.

Offline scott r

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2006, 12:20:08 AM »
Yes, Yes, Yes!

A true work of art.

Makes me miss Pittsburgh.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2006, 10:10:49 AM »
abc,

Your pie looks great.

Did you use the Lehmann dough formulation and procedures as referenced in Reply #24 in this thread? Also, can you fill us in on how the process went and how you liked the pizza? I'd also be interested in the sauce you used. I know your fondness for the DiFara Sicilian pie so I hope that your pizza was satisfying nonetheless. Any advice would also be appreciated.

Peter

Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2006, 06:41:03 PM »
Peter, I most certainly did utilize the formulation you computed for my black tray.

I had seasoned the pan over the past 6 wks or so, and last week when i was in the mood and had some KA bread flour I took on the task.

Sauce:
basically a can of tuttoroso (forgot exact spelling)  i had on the shelf, which was labelled as 'crushed' tomatoes became the source of my sauce.  I didnt like that their 'crushed' looks more like pureed tomatoes... either they misabled from the factory, my 12 can case, or they changed their product designated for 'crushed' because a few yrs ago crushed meant crushed with this brand.

Anyway, i had 2 fresh tomatoes that i mildly pulsed in to mix, so i can have a fresher brighter overall flavor.  i also finely pulsed in 1 very small onion, which i usually don't do.  Pulsed fresh basil as well... then some:  salt, sugar, oregano, thyme.  Then I coarse chopped a handful of garlic and tossed it into 1 minute heated olive oil, then poured this into the tomatoes and mixed, set it aside overnight.

Toppings:  pepperoni sliced from a Corando stick, briefly blanched to remove some grease and what I feel is excess salt/sodium.
Cheese, I blended 6 slices of Provolone with shredded Pollyo low moisture whole milk mozzarella, then freshly grated tad of Parmigiano Reggiano, then some oregano, then a bit of drizzled olive oil all over the pie.

Dough:  I had the dough in the fridge for about 8 hrs, then I oiled the pan with olive oil, dusted it with semolina, and handstretched the dough to fill the tray.  Wasn't very difficult a process.  Then I put the tray into my fridge and let it rise overnight... it was about 16 hrs after that, and about thusly 24hrs total, I took it out and let it rest on the counter for 3hrs. 

An hour before I put the dough into the oven I preheated it with my stone (though I don't think I really needed the stone).

I parbaked the dough with the tray of course, for about 5-6 min, took it out, topped with a substantial layer of sauce, put it in for about another 6 min, took it out and it was steaming...

Topped it with plenty of cheese and pepproni, then a final shot of more sauce, and a final back for about 5 min.  This time I used my broiler method to heat the top.

I have some more pics but they aren't great.  I had it on macro mode but i did a poor job of focusing.

It was a very good pizza.  It was very similar to a NY pizzaria kind of square, but the oil on the bottom aspect allowed it to be crispy and rich.

It's not the same as Difara because his is a different dough, and his finished crust bottom didn't have the look of having risen on the tray for a long time like regular pizzerias, mine included.  Maybe he doesn't bake his on a tray, i didn't see him make it! when I had it.   His is also a thinner dough.  Mine and the typical pizzeria NYC 5 borough square is about 3/4th of an inch high after parbaking.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2006, 07:20:25 PM »
abc,

Thanks for the writeup. One of these days I will have to give the Sicilian a try. Maybe one of the recipes calling for semolina.

Peter

Offline babstinger

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Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2006, 04:15:16 PM »
Silly question, but what is EVO ?

Thanks!


True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

I can give you a cross-mix of roman pizza and Sicilian pizza derived by my e-friends Gabriele of Pizzarium in Rome and Vincenzo of his father-in-law bakery in Caltanisetta, Sicily.

It involves a very time and effort consuming technique, but the results will be the best you will have in US.

1000g Fine Semolina Flour
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750g Semolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.


After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g Semolina and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that the dough will seams like is drying a bit.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

Let me know the results...


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2006, 05:15:26 PM »
babstinger,

EVO = EVOO = Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

You might also find our Pizza Glossary, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html, to come in handy in deciphering other acronyms.

Peter


Offline gschwim

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2006, 08:56:25 PM »
JimBob,

Do you know the recipe for the photo of the Scilian pizza that accompanies your posts?

Gene

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2006, 09:05:48 PM »
Gene,

JimBob hasn't been active on the forum for some time but I am pretty certain the recipe is the one posted here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.msg13966.html#msg13966.

Peter

Offline John39840

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2006, 04:25:42 AM »
This is such a cool topic. I'd even love to see Sicilian dough incorporated into the dough calculator. I might even make my very first Sicilian pie due to this thread.  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2006, 09:25:30 AM »
John,

At the moment, the Lehmann dough calculator is not set up for rectangular pies but it can be used for round Sicilian pies, which some pizza operators make even though rectangular is the classic shape. However, it is possible to "fool" the tool to get the numbers for a rectangular pie. What you have to do is convert the surface area and thickness factor of the rectangular pie (length times width times a thickness factor, e.g., 0.13) into a round pie and play around with the thickness factor in the tool until you get the same dough weight as for the rectangular pie. For example, in the Lehmann dough recipe I posted in this thread if you solve for the square root of 28.08/(3.14159 x 0.13), you will get 8.3 for the equivalent radius, or 16.6 for the diameter. Since the tool works only for whole numbers for the pizza size, you would put either 16" or 17" in the pizza size box and play around with the thickness factor until you get close to 28.08 ounces total dough weigh in the table at the bottom of the tool . The tool will then give you the proper quantities for all the ingredients.

I haven't studied Marco's numbers for his Sicilian dough formulation carefully so I don't know whether this approach can be used with Marco's dough formulation but it should be possible with Big Dave's dough formulation in addition to the Lehmann one. If you get to the point where you decide to give one of the recipes a try I should be able to help you with the numbers.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 02:49:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline gschwim

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2006, 11:57:30 AM »
Another possibility, especially if you have a digital scale with tare ("zeroing") capability, is to (1) "zero" the scale, with the pan you want to use on it, (2) make an amount of dough that you are certain is more than you need, press it into the pan you want to use, take away the excess and then weigh the filled pan.  If you can't zero your scale, then take the dough out of the pan and weigh it separately.  Then use the resulting weight for future pies.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2006, 01:10:03 PM »
Gene,

That approach will work but unless 1) you have baker's percents to begin with, or 2) if you don't have baker's percents, keep track of the actual quantities of all the ingredients used and the final dough weight and then use that data to calculate baker's percents and a thickness factor, you won't be able to accurately and consistently replicate the results again. Having baker's percents and a thickness factor takes away the need to use your approach.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2006, 12:31:53 PM »
about 50 x 35 cm. Do not use a rolling pin. Flatten by hand and then adjust it in the pan. The thickness should be about 1.5-2 cm (it wil double thanks to the oven spring).

Marco,

I was studying your Sicilian dough formulation at Reply 6 more closely and noted from Reply 16 that the pan size you use is 50 cm. by 35 cm. That is equal to a pan that is 19.7" by 13.8", or roughly 20" by 14". If you are using 500-600 grams (17.7-21.2 oz.) of dough in that size pan, it would seem that the dough would be stretched out quite thin, quite a bit less than 1.5-2 cm (0.59-0.79"), and especially if 500 grams of dough is used. Did I get something wrong?

Also, can you describe the "fine semolina flour" with further detail? In the U.S., semolina flour is most often fairly coarse. Is fine semolina flour durum flour, as is often used to make pasta? I did a search and found this, http://chefshop.com/Itemdesc.asp?CameFrom=Search&CartId=104134-EVEREST-26ELGON34&ic=4732&tpc=&SR=, but I don't know if that is what you are talking about. Maybe this discussion at the theartisan.net site will also help: http://www.theartisan.net/sicilian_bread.htm.

Thank you, Marco.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 02:57:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2006, 12:31:34 PM »
You stretch the dough, don't flatten it... Yes, is quite thin but that type of dough, will puff up... it is suppose to be light, not bready....

I actually think that the recipe I first supply will be too difficult to make without a high speed Spiral mixer. You can adjusting by changing the flour to 60% organic strong/high gluten wheat flour and 40% "Semola rimacinata di Grano Duro". In England the closest approx to it is Fine Semolina Flour (the other is coarse). Some pasta "semolina" are to coarse, but I have also seen some quite fine.

Ciao

Offline tonymark

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2006, 01:16:01 PM »
Why is the spiral mixer so important for your original recipe that Peter referenced?  Is this really just about gluten development.  Have you seen this type of dough mixed other ways?  Is it possible?  What is a good substitute mixing technique?

TM
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2006, 04:53:01 PM »
Tonymark, you have to take my word for it. I am not going into details sorry.

Ciao

Offline tonymark

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2006, 11:10:07 PM »
Tonymark, you have to take my word for it. I am not going into details sorry.

Ciao

SORRY, I don't think that answer is good enough.  Marco, I know you are a brilliant pizza maker/consultant, but you are telling me there is no way to hand knead or mix this type of dough.  Did they make this type of pizza 100 years ago?  If so, how did they do it without a fork, diving arms or spiral mixer?

You're not a details kind of guy.  I get it.  You are writing a book, but give us something here.  Hell, sell us your long overdue book.

TM
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 08:45:45 AM by tonymark »
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2006, 05:22:37 AM »

I actually think that the recipe I first supply will be too difficult to make without a high speed Spiral mixer.

The note above is your answer. (difficult, if I read correctly is not impossible, and I said Spiral, not fork or others).

Make it by hand and then tell me how you went about it.... Anyway, is an evolution of the really ancient form of focaccia (almost liquid batter poured on a pan and cooked in an oven) but was only developed like that about 30 years ago in Rome...

SORRY, I don't think that answer is good enough.

Again if this answer doesn't satisfy you, there is nothing I can do about it. I am not in a competititon or trying to prove myself.

Thanks

Marco
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 06:43:11 AM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2006, 02:44:39 PM »
Marco,

This isn't an entry into the dough discussion, but it is a vivid memory of my early teenage years in Philadelphia, actually a nearby eighteenth century riverbank town called Manayunk ("Manny-unk").  Then, it was primarily inhabited by Sicilians.  There were several, probably highly illegal, wood-fired beehive ovens built on the backs of the row-houses.  These were used to bake the torpedo buns for Philadelphia-style cheesesteaks and hoagies served in places like Pat's in South Philadelphia.  But, rectangular Sicilian pizzas were also baked in these ovens, not for sale, necessarily, more for the baker's family.  I well remember driving down the communal laneway between these houses to visit one such bakery.  The pizza was baked in a rectangular pan, was quite chewy, about an inch and a half thick, topped with homemade tomato sauce and fresh oregano.  The pizza was first baked a bit, then the sauce went on, and it was baked a bit more.  The oregano was sprinkled on after it came out of the oven.  My recollection is that a square piece about six inches by six inches cost a quarter.

Jim
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