Author Topic: Sicilian Dough ????  (Read 61123 times)

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Offline Artale

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Sicilian Dough ????
« on: March 18, 2005, 03:16:05 PM »
Is there a different flour mixture when it comes to making
square pizza.  Does anyone have a recipe for making it?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2005, 09:17:25 PM »
Artale,

From what I have seen since being a member of this forum, not much has been done with Sicilian style pizzas. One of our members recently posted a recipe for Sicilian pizza that he found somewhere on the Internet (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1021.msg9105.html#msg9105), but if you are interested in one that Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking recommends for professional pizza operators, I have posted below the list of ingredients and baker's percents. Unfortunately, the recipe doesn't give actual weights to be able to calculate the amount of dough you will need to make a particular size Sicilian pizza. But all is not lost. Some fairly standard pizza sizes and related dough ball weights are generally well known and can be used. They are as follows: 9'' (10 oz.), 10" (11 oz.), 12" (15-16 oz.), 14" (22 oz.), 15" (25 oz.), and 10" x 14" (22 oz.). If you decide you like Tom Lehmann's recipe and can decide on a size you'd like to make, let me know and I think I may be able to come up with a list of ingredients and amounts for you to try out. Generally, you should try to use a dark, anodized, well-seasoned pan to make a Sicilian pizza. Here is the information on Tom Lehmann's recipe (I can decipher the instructions if you need help):

Flour: 100% (11.5% protein, typical bread flour)
Salt: 2.5%
Olive oil: 5.0%
Yeast (as compressed) 2.0%
Water: 58.0% (+/-)

Targeted finished dough temperature: 75 to 80F. Scale, ball, box, oil the dough balls, cross stack in the cooler for 2 hours, down stack and nest dough boxes, use after 18 hours. Remove from cooler and allow to warm at room temperature for 60 to 90 minutes, press dough into oiled pans, allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F. This also makes a pretty decent focaccia too.

As an alternative to the Lehmann recipe, you might also want to take a look at another Sicilian dough recipe, by Big Dave Ostrander, a colleague of Tom Lehmann's. Big Dave's recipe differs from Lehmann's recipe in a few ingredient particulars but the main difference is in the preparation techniques. The Big Dave Sicilian dough recipe is at http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/1635. Don't worry about the PZ-44. That's a dough conditioner that you shouldn't need. If that recipe interests you, I can help you work out the particulars for your case if you don't have experience with using baker's percents.

A third possibility is this one: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/10_dough_recipe.htm. You might want to consider the test pizza in the right-most column, although you will need to either weigh some of the ingredients or convert from weights to volume.

Peter

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040606221443/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/_05_dough-making.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 02:41:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2005, 04:03:40 AM »
I have a friend with a grandmother from Sicily that makes pizza for the family here in Boston all the time.  I am working on getting the recipe right now.  I know she insists on doing it by hand for some reason.  She only makes true Sicilian square pizza, so she might be a good source for you. 

The best Sicilian I have ever had is in Pittsburgh at Mama Lucia's.  I have gotten samples of their sauce, and it seems to be uncooked super high quality crushed tomatoes with no other seasoning.  They let the dough rise in pans sitting by the oven for a while, then pour olive oil on the dough.  Next they put sauce on the pizza.  The pizzas then go in the oven for a while with no cheese or toppings.  Finally they add a little more sauce, a sprinkle of oregano, and cheese etc. and finish the pies off with one more round in the oven.

Offline Artale

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2005, 05:05:16 PM »
Artale,

From what I have seen since being a member of this forum, not much has been done with Sicilian style pizzas. One of our members recently posted a recipe for Sicilian pizza that he found somewhere on the Internet (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1021.msg9105.html#msg9105), but if you are interested in one that Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking recommends for professional pizza operators, I have posted below the list of ingredients and baker's percents. Unfortunately, the recipe doesn't give actual weights to be able to calculate the amount of dough you will need to make a particular size Sicilian pizza. But all is not lost. Some fairly standard pizza sizes and related dough ball weights are generally well known and can be used. They are as follows: 9'' (10 oz.), 10" (11 oz.), 12" (15-16 oz.), 14" (22 oz.), 15" (25 oz.), and 10" x 14" (22 oz.). If you decide you like Tom Lehmann's recipe and can decide on a size you'd like to make, let me know and I think I may be able to come up with a list of ingredients and amounts for you to try out. Generally, you should try to use a dark, anodized, well-seasoned pan to make a Sicilian pizza. Here is the information on Tom Lehmann's recipe (I can decipher the instructions if you need help):

Flour: 100% (11.5% protein, typical bread flour)
Salt: 2.5%
Olive oil: 5.0%
Yeast (as compressed) 2.0%
Water: 58.0% (+/-)

Targeted finished dough temperature: 75 to 80F. Scale, ball, box, oil the dough balls, cross stack in the cooler for 2 hours, down stack and nest dough boxes, use after 18 hours. Remove from cooler and allow to warm at room temperature for 60 to 90 minutes, press dough into oiled pans, allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F. This also makes a pretty decent focaccia too.

As an alternative to the Lehmann recipe, you might also want to take a look at another Sicilian dough recipe, by Big Dave Ostrander, a colleague of Tom Lehmann's. Big Dave's recipe differs from Lehmann's recipe in a few ingredient particulars but the main difference is in the preparation techniques. The Big Dave Sicilian dough recipe is at http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/1635. Don't worry about the PZ-44. That's a dough conditioner that you shouldn't need. If that recipe interests you, I can help you work out the particulars for your case if you don't have experience with using baker's percents.

A third possibility is this one: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/10_dough_recipe.htm. You might want to consider the test pizza in the right-most column, although you will need to either weigh some of the ingredients or convert from weights to volume.

Peter


Thank you peter!!!



Offline scott r

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2005, 12:21:36 AM »
Here is my friend's Sicilian grandmothers dough recipe.  There is obviously some preparation info missing, but I figured I would give you what I was given.  If I were you I would also experiment with some longer rise times with this recipe.  Any suggestions?

1/4 cup warm water
1 envelope active dry yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
3 1/2 cups bread flour
1/2 cup pastry flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 1/4 cup cold water
1 tablespoon olive oil

mix by hand until it forms a ball.  put dough ball in oiled bowl and let sit for 1 hour.  punch down dough.  split into two dough balls and let sit for 1/2 hour.  cook on stone at 500 in a glass pan.

Offline Artale

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2005, 09:12:56 AM »
Here is my friend's Sicilian grandmothers dough recipe.á There is obviously some preparation info missing, but I figured I would give you what I was given.á If I were you I would also experiment with some longer rise times with this recipe.á Any suggestions?

1/4 cup warm water
1 envelope active dry yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
3 1/2 cups bread flour
1/2 cup pastry flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 1/4 cup cold water
1 tablespoon olive oil

mix by hand until it forms a ball.á put dough ball in oiled bowl and let sit for 1 hour.á punch down dough.á split into two dough balls and let sit for 1/2 hour.á cook on stone at 500 in a glass pan.


Scott thank you for the recipe!!!

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2005, 07:25:48 PM »
True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

I can give you a cross-mix of roman pizza and Sicilian pizza derived by my e-friends Gabriele of Pizzarium in Rome and Vincenzo of his father-in-law bakery in Caltanisetta, Sicily.

It involves a very time and effort consuming technique, but the results will be the best you will have in US.

1000g Fine Semolina Flour
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750g Semolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.


After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g Semolina and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that the dough will seams like is drying a bit.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

Let me know the results...

Offline Artale

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 09:21:47 AM »
Thank you for this classic recipe i will
try it and let you know how
the family likes it!

Offline DKM

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Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 12:24:10 PM »
True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

Not according to my Sicilian co-worker.

Oh, well.

DKM
I'm on too many of these boards


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2005, 12:46:27 PM »
Not according to my Sicilian co-worker.

Oh, well.

DKM

DKM

I can only tell you to go there and see by yourself. Sicilian focaccia ˙ sfinciuni palemmitanu
is made like that, traditionally.

I also had a personal experience on one of my consultancy service, iná Caltanisetta, as I had to adapt my methodology to the use of fine semolina flour (semola rimacinata di grano duro).

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 02:11:51 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline scott r

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2005, 01:19:37 PM »
thanks pizzanapoletana I am very excited to try an authentic recipe like this.  We are so lucky to have you here.  Is there a special brand of flour that you would consider to be the best choice?

Offline friz78

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2005, 06:10:26 PM »
Has anyone tried this recipe yet?  I'd love to hear the results...
Friz

Offline scott r

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2005, 04:54:51 AM »
I wish I could find the time, Ill bet it is amazing.  It appears as if Marco does not mess around.

Fritz, I'll second that motion.

Offline JimBob

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2005, 06:02:38 PM »
Has anyone tried this recipe yet?   ???
JimBob

Offline JimBob

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Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2005, 11:01:40 PM »
I'm going to give this one a whirl within the next 2 weeks. 

Pizzanapoletana,  what size pan are the 500-600g dough balls weighed out for???

Thanks.....



True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

I can give you a cross-mix of roman pizza and Sicilian pizza derived by my e-friends Gabriele of Pizzarium in Rome and Vincenzo of his father-in-law bakery in Caltanisetta, Sicily.

It involves a very time and effort consuming technique, but the results will be the best you will have in US.

1000g Fine Semolina Flour
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750g Semolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.


After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g Semolina and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that the dough will seams like is drying a bit.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

Let me know the results...

JimBob

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2005, 04:49:40 AM »
about 50 x 35 cm. Do not use a rolling pin. Flatten by hand and then adjust it in the pan. The thickness should be about 1.5-2 cm (it wil double thanks to the oven spring).

Ciao

Offline JimBob

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2005, 08:39:45 AM »
Thank you sir.  :)
JimBob


Offline AKSteve

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2005, 08:24:57 AM »
For a change, I tried a sicilian crust yesterday. I used the following recipe: http://recipes.robbiehaf.com/T/273.htm I did the final kneading in my mixer, 5 minutes on the lowest setting, 5 minute rest, and 5 minutes on medium-low. It was nice because this was a dough that was ready to go in the oven in just a few hours, whereas my Ny style doughs always sit in the fridge at least overnight. After the rise, I spread it out in a lightly oiled pan and let it sit for about a half an hour to rise a little in the pan and then I sauced it up. After it had sauce on it, I lifted it up one corner at a time and squirted olive oil underneath with a Turkey baster. Then I cooked it with just the sauce on it for 12 minutes. I took it out and put some cheese and toppings on and then cooked it for another 12-15 minutes until done. It was actually really good and really easy to make.


Steve
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 08:27:18 AM by AKSteve »

Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2005, 11:32:36 AM »
Marco:  At what temperature and for how long do you bake this style of pizza?

Thanks!

---Guy
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.

Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2005, 04:17:36 PM »
Artale,

From what I have seen since being a member of this forum, not much has been done with Sicilian style pizzas. One of our members recently posted a recipe for Sicilian pizza that he found somewhere on the Internet (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1021.msg9105.html#msg9105), but if you are interested in one that Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking recommends for professional pizza operators, I have posted below the list of ingredients and baker's percents. Unfortunately, the recipe doesn't give actual weights to be able to calculate the amount of dough you will need to make a particular size Sicilian pizza. But all is not lost. Some fairly standard pizza sizes and related dough ball weights are generally well known and can be used. They are as follows: 9'' (10 oz.), 10" (11 oz.), 12" (15-16 oz.), 14" (22 oz.), 15" (25 oz.), and 10" x 14" (22 oz.). If you decide you like Tom Lehmann's recipe and can decide on a size you'd like to make, let me know and I think I may be able to come up with a list of ingredients and amounts for you to try out. Generally, you should try to use a dark, anodized, well-seasoned pan to make a Sicilian pizza. Here is the information on Tom Lehmann's recipe (I can decipher the instructions if you need help):

Flour: 100% (11.5% protein, typical bread flour)
Salt: 2.5%
Olive oil: 5.0%
Yeast (as compressed) 2.0%
Water: 58.0% (+/-)

Targeted finished dough temperature: 75 to 80F. Scale, ball, box, oil the dough balls, cross stack in the cooler for 2 hours, down stack and nest dough boxes, use after 18 hours. Remove from cooler and allow to warm at room temperature for 60 to 90 minutes, press dough into oiled pans, allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F. This also makes a pretty decent focaccia too.

As an alternative to the Lehmann recipe, you might also want to take a look at another Sicilian dough recipe, by Big Dave Ostrander, a colleague of Tom Lehmann's. Big Dave's recipe differs from Lehmann's recipe in a few ingredient particulars but the main difference is in the preparation techniques. The Big Dave Sicilian dough recipe is at http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/1635. Don't worry about the PZ-44. That's a dough conditioner that you shouldn't need. If that recipe interests you, I can help you work out the particulars for your case if you don't have experience with using baker's percents.

A third possibility is this one: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/10_dough_recipe.htm. You might want to consider the test pizza in the right-most column, although you will need to either weigh some of the ingredients or convert from weights to volume.

Peter


Pete, can you scale a recipe fitting a 12" by 18" rectangular, 1inch deep pan?

I just bought one, it has those rolled edges with the wire framed edge, heavy duty, heavy weighted, black in color.

I'm excited... but i'm not sure what surface the pan is... I saw a stack of pizza pans with the same finish... that is, I'm not sure if I should season it... right now i'm running the clean cycle on my oven, and wonder if I should coat this pan with some peanut oil and toss it in.  The pan came in a clear plastic bag but there are no markings, no branding anywhere..  looks like real restaurant stock.  they have square pans, 15 inch by 15 inch ones as well.  I decided on this rectangular one.

there was a older, rusted stack of pans below the stack from which I got this one, and there were sheets of xeroxed paper describing the pan and how it needs to remain dry and seasoned. 

the helper guy pointed to a stack of aluminum ones he said the one I was eyeing is non-stick.  i'm not sure he knows, he's not a cooking enthusiast.  i think it's an anodized finish.  I took a pic of it.

if it's a nonstick 'teflon' coating i don't want to put it as part of the oven cycle.  but i know from nonstick teflon pans, this baby doesn't feel like a nonstick coating.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2005, 05:56:16 PM »
abc,

Let me take a look at what I wrote and the recipes again to see which of the recipes is translatable into something you can use in your new pan. It may be possible to come up with a dough weight for your size pan but I don't know offhand if your pan will be deep enough.

As for your pan, it sounds like it is an anodized aluminum pan. Depending on its coating, it may or may not need seasoning. It won't hurt, however, to coat the pan with a bit of vegetable oil and put it in a 425-450 degree F oven for about a half hour. I personally wouldn't use the oven clean cycle since that gets up to such a high temperature that I am not sure what it will do when the temperature exceeds the flash point of the oil. The high temperature might also damage the coating or cause other damage to the pan. From what you say, it doesn't sound like your coating is Teflon. If it is, I don't think I would use the oven clean cycle. At high temperatures, Teflon breaks down and can emit fumes that may well be toxic.

The old rusted pans you mentioned are most likely seasoned bare metal pans without coatings. The have to remain dry and seasoned to work well.

Peter

Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2005, 06:59:47 PM »
thanks... i guess it starts with a 12 by 18 inch pan has x amount of square inches would be the equivalent to a recipe of a y diameter round pie, then double or triple the thickness?... = the weight of the doughball needed.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2005, 07:58:35 PM »
abc,

Actually, the way you calculate the required amount of dough is the same as with a round pizza but you use the square inches for a rectangular (or square) Sicilian pan, along with the recommended thickness factor (TF). So, in your case, the required amount of dough is equal to 18" x 12" x TF, where TF has a typical value for Sicilian ("thick") style of 0.12-0.13. In one case, noted in my post from which you quoted, Dave Ostrander recommended a dough weight for a 10" x 14" pan of 22 ounces. That translates to a thickness factor TF of 0.157. I personally think the 0.157 number is too high, given that Big Dave recommends 0.12-0.13 for the Sicilian style. But, it's up to you. I think I can convert any one of the three recipes to fit your pan, with any thickness factor you prefer. If you'd like to revisit the three recipes, I will try to give you the amounts of ingredients to use for the recipe you'd like to start with. Just let me know which one and what thickness factor you would like to use. Keep in mind at the same time that the Lehmann recipe and the Ostrander recipe use different processing of the dough to make the Sicilian pizzas.

I also went to the pizzatools.com website to check on typical pan depths for Sicilian. The depths of the Sicilian pans sold by pizzatools.com are 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Big Dave recommends 2 inches. However, I think a dough ball using a thickness factor of 0.12-0.13 should work with your 1-inch deep pan. For example, looking at the Correll Concepts formulation and using a thickness factor of 0.12 will yield a dough ball weight of around 26 ounces. That's about the weight of dough for a fairly thick 16-inch NY style or a thin 18-inch NY style. Using thickness factors of 0.13 and 0.157 will mean dough ball weights of around 28 ounces and 34 ounces, respectively.

As a footnote, I might add that some bakers actually prefer bromated flours for the Sicilian style. Potassium bromate is an oxidizing agent that strengthens the dough between the time that the dough is put into pans to proof and the time of baking. This results in a higher volume dough. I'm not recommending that you use the bromated flour, because bromates are suspected carcinogens and banned in many countries, but just mention it so you are aware of its significance in the Sicilian context.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 08:25:10 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline abc

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2005, 08:28:23 PM »
what can i say, Pete thanks again for punching in.  I'd really like to work with the Lehmann recipe and see how it comes out.

I don't know what the deal is with these 2" deep pans.  I'm in NYC my whole life and I've never seen a place use a pan with such a tall side wall.

They are all around 1", give or take .5"  They wouldn't be able to cut through with the wheel, they already slide in a spatula to lift the square to make the crust cut.

I'll go with your .12 to .13 thickness factor.  Years ago I made a potato based scillian and I loved squares as high as I could find, but these days I'd like something with a little less carbs and more artisan.

DiFara's bottom tastes of olive oil and garlic powder.  It's very very good.  It's less thick than the 'generic' NYC pizzerias, while more crispy and charred on the bottom.  So rustic looking, and the toppings are sooo aromatic.
 
But I think some people would actually consider Difara's squares to be burnt.

I seasoned my new pan already, boy does it get hot!  holding that heat.  It will be interesting using this pan for the first time, when I get a chance, perhaps this weekend.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Dough ????
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2005, 09:28:40 PM »
abc,

Here you go.

Assuming a thickness factor of 0.13, the amount of dough you will need for your 18" x 12" pan is 18á x 12 x 0.13 = 28.08 ounces (796.08 g.).

The amounts of ingredients you will need are set forth in the recipe below. You will note that the Lehmann Sicilian dough recipe as originally posted calls for bread flour with a protein content of 11.7%. I usually use the King Arthur brand of bread flour, which has a protein content of 12.7%. Whatever bread flour you have on hand should work fine. You can even use a higher gluten flour if you'd like but if you do that you may want to increase the amount of water a bit. I did not convert the bread flour to volume measurements in the recipe posted below because I don't have any bread flour on hand at the moment. But you will note that the flour comes to a bit over a pound. I also converted the cake yeast called for in the Lehmann recipe to instant dry yeast (IDY), for convenience.

Lehmann Sicilian Dough Recipe for abc's 18" x 12" Pan
100%, Bread flour, 16.90 oz. (479.08 g.)
2.5%, Salt (table salt), 0.42 oz. (11.98 g.), (a bit over 2 1/8 t.)
5.0%, Olive oil, 0.85 oz. (23.95 g.), (1 T. plus 2 1/8 t.)
0.67%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.11 oz. (3.21 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
58%, Water, 9.80 oz. (277.86 g.), (1 /1/4 c.)
Total dough ball weight = 28.08 oz. (796.08 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.13

I would make the dough just like you have been making the Lehmann NY style dough. When you are ready to pan the dough, you may want to take a look at Big Dave's instructions for oiling the pan. You need a fair amount of oil to get that crispiness you seem to want. There's also no reason that I can see why you can't use Big Dave's instructions for using the dough rather than Tom L's if you think you'd like Big Dave's approach better.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 09:35:26 PM by Pete-zza »