Author Topic: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00  (Read 3528 times)

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Offline XanderKane

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ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« on: April 19, 2010, 06:57:03 PM »
Hello again everyone. 

Though it may appear that I pop in and disappear only to pop up again, I assure you I'm still here reading all about the experiments everyone is trying.  I've attempted many of them on my own as well.

Over the time since my first post here I've been acquiring the tools I need to do this well.  I'm on my second (more accurate) digital scale, moved from using a bread machine to a KitchenAid stand mixer, found a local outlet for both 6in1 and whole milk Mozzarella.  I've also spent some time experimenting with KABF and VWG flour, and been fairly pleased with the results.  I've decided though that if I really want to do it well I need to try some of the more highly recommended flours.  I'm starting with the Antimo Caputo 00 flour.

I'm guessing that one of the first to respond to this will be Peter, and as such I ask for forgiveness right off the bat.  I've looked through your Lehman road map, but there is just such a wealth there that I wasn't sure what best to try.  I've done some searches and mostly seen Neopolitan crusts associated with 00 flours.  I intend to try some of the more highly recommended among them, but what I'm really after is the coveted NY Style.  I've also seen a lot of references mentioning that the 00 has to be treated a bit differently than most widely available flours due to its different characteristics.

I generally like to make a large enough batch to get 2-3 dough balls for a 15" pie.  If anyone could give me some suggestions, or point me to a thread that fits this that I've missed I'd appreciate it.

After this I am planning to try the KASL flour...I just hate to order one small bag for $7.  I actually spoke to a buyer at my local Whole Foods about ordering it.  I'm fairly certain that he thought I was making up the name.  I never heard from him again. :)

--Bryan


Offline sear

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 07:11:44 PM »
i wish you luck  ;D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 07:35:48 PM »
Bryan,

Welcome back.

If you are looking for the "coveted NY Style", you would not use a 00 flour. The closest you might come to a NY style using 00 flour is to combine it with another flour, such as a high-gluten flour. That is what Dom DeMarco does at DiFara's in Brooklyn. You can see a recent video of Dom making pizzas at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XynVVH1ZPZo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XynVVH1ZPZo</a>
. Dom's pizza is usually classified as a NY style but he is an anomaly and one of the rare ones to use a blend such as he does. Most NY style pizzas made in NYC use high-gluten flour. It is possible to use other flours, including all-purpose flour and bread flour, but the predominant flour for that style is high-gluten flour. I would say that the number one brand of high-gluten flour is the General Mills All-Trumps flour (the bromated version). Only a few pizza operators use the KASL.

It is not difficult to come up with a dough formulation for a basic NY style for you to consider. It can be a Lehmann version or another version, of which there are many on the forum. I can give you an example or two if you'd like or I can provide links to some possibilities for you to consider. In your case, until you can find a source of the KASL or other high-gluten flour, you can use the KABF, either alone or as supplemented with vital wheat gluten. I assume in your case that you will be using a standard home oven, not a very high temperature oven. I assume also that you would be using instant dry yeast (IDY).

If you can give me some guidance as to how you would like to proceed at this point, either I or some other member may be able to suggest a dough formulation for you to use to make a basic NY style pizza.

Peter


Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2010, 09:18:26 PM »
Thanks, Sear.

Hey, Peter.  Yeah...I figured I went and bought the wrong thing.  I have looked for some outlet for a bromated flour, but I've had absolutely no luck finding one.  I've tried to find a bakery supply here in Memphis, but again nothing. Here we are though, so lets give it a go.

Yes, I'll be using a standard home oven and IDY.  If you have more questions, let me know.

--Bryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2010, 09:48:59 PM »
Bryan,

Do you want to use the KABF alone or as supplemented with VWG, or do you want an example of each? If you elect a VWG version, what brand of VWG do you have on hand? You indicated a desired pizza size of 15". How many dough balls do you want, 2 or 3 (or any other number)? Also, what kind of salt do you want to use--table salt/sea salt, Morton's Kosher or Diamond Crystal Kosher?

Peter

Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2010, 10:01:29 PM »
First of all, I love how helpful you are to everyone, Peter.  This board wouldn't be what it is without you.

Are you talking about supplementing the 00 with the KABF or VWG?  if that's the case I'm fine either way.  I think I'd rather use the VWG as I really won't use it for anything but pizza.  I can find lots of uses for the KABF.  I have Bob's Red Mill VWG here on hand. 

As far as salt, I've got coarse kosher salt (Kroger brand) and natural salt. 

I usually like to do 3 balls, but this time around since its something new I think I'm looking for 2.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2010, 10:17:37 PM »
Bryan,

Since you are looking for a quintessentially NY style pizza, I was thinking only of using the KABF with or without VWG. Also, you don't have any high-gluten flour to create a blend like Dom DeMarco uses and it would not make much sense to supplement the 00 flour you have with VWG. Down the road you might try a blend of 00 with some other flour, even the KABF, to use up the 00 flour. We can address that version at that time if that will work for you.

Please advise.

Peter

Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2010, 11:07:21 PM »
Ugh...ok.  I guess I need to go ahead and spend the $7 plus shipping for a small bag of KBSL.  Anyone know of a place to order the bromated stuff you recommend?

Offline Guts

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 11:54:26 PM »
First of all, I love how helpful you are to everyone, Peter.  This board wouldn't be what it is without you


DITTO!!!
Guts/AKA/Kim
"Vegetarian - old Indian word for bad fisherman"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2010, 10:15:04 AM »
Ugh...ok.  I guess I need to go ahead and spend the $7 plus shipping for a small bag of KASL.  Anyone know of a place to order the bromated stuff you recommend?


Bryan,

I will await further instructions from you since you seem not to have clearly made up your mind on this matter. The high-gluten flours like the All Trumps come in 50-lb. bags and usually come from sources that sell to professionals. You would have to find such a source willing to sell to you as an individual, or else try to find someone in the business to procure the flour for you or sell you some from their inventory. Rather than incurring the very steep costs to procure a small bag of the KASL from King Arthur, you might want to consider using your KABF (possibly supplemented with VWG) with the 00 flour. To give you an idea of the types of dough formulations that I have in mind, see Replies 130-135 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg28423.html#msg28423 and also Reply 139 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg28531.html#msg28531.

Peter


Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2010, 11:11:40 AM »
Sorry, Peter, I was just a touch frustrated that I might have made the wrong buy.

I do have the 3 flours on hand to play with, I love pizza, and I'm game to try something out; possibly hitting on something great.

Lets try some things out!  The posts you referenced looked intriguing.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2010, 12:40:53 PM »
Bryan,

I suggest that we start with a basic NY style rather than trying to strike out in five different directions at once. In the process, maybe I can instruct you sufficiently in the use of the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html that you will be able create your own dough formulations using whatever baker's percents, crust thicknesses and flour combinations that you would like.

For a start, I suggest the following for two 15" pizzas:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.30%):
Sea Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166.05%):
Single Ball:
540.69 g  |  19.07 oz | 1.19 lbs
340.64 g  |  12.02 oz | 0.75 lbs
1.62 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
9.46 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
5.41 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
897.82 g | 31.67 oz | 1.98 lbs | TF = 0.0896052
448.91 g | 15.83 oz | 0.99 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088281 (the number that is entered into the tool); for two 15" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%
* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 527.67 grams (18.61 ounces) KABF and 13.02 grams (0.46 ounces) of Bob's Red Mill VWG (this amount is about 5 1/4 t.)

In creating the above dough formulation, I supplemented the KABF to increase its protein content to the protein content value of the KASL, which is 14.2% (this is the same as for the All-Trumps). To do this, I used member November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. I used a a pull-down menu for the KABF and a pull-down menu for the Bob's Red Mill VWG. The target mass I used in the calculator is 540.69 grams and the target percentage is 14.2%. I used the data on a bag of the Bob's Red Mill VWG to convert the weight of VWG to a volume measurement. FYI, the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator can be used with other flours, including the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Accordingly, you might want to play around with that calculator to become more familiar with its use.

The above dough formulation lends itself to many possible variations. For example, some people like to use a lower hydration, for example, around 57-58%. This makes the dough easier to handle but at the expense of a somewhat less open and airy finished crust. Other members choose to use around 65%. That usually makes the dough more extensible (stretchy) and harder for some people to work with who do have experience working with wetter doughs, but the finished crust should have a more open and airy character. Some people like to omit the oil, which will produce a slighty dryer crust, but others like to increase it, either for increased crust flavor or to make the dough easier to work with (the oil coats the gluten strands). An example would be to use 3% oil. The oil can be just about anything but olive oil adds a nice flavor to the finished crust. You also have the option of increasing or decreasing the amount of salt, and choosing the type of salt to use. In the above dough formulation, I used sea salt. That is what I use because it is a "cleaner" salt than most table salts and has no chemical additives. It also contains nutrients that are good for the yeast. Although the above dough formulation does not include any sugar, it is often recommended that one use about 1-2% sugar if the dough is to be cold fermented for more than about 3 days. Some people, as a personal preference, add sugar even for doughs that will not be held that long.

The nominal thickness factor I used in the above dough formulation, 0.088281, is one that I calculated from information that was provided to me by Tom Lehmann for a NY style pizza. However, there is nothing sacred about that number. I would say that a rough range is about 0.075-0.105. The lower value will result in a generally thinner crust (it will depend to a degree on how you shape the dough and the size of the rim you end up with) and the higher value will result in a generally thicker crust. The lower value will be more in line with the "elite" NY style (the kind baked in coal-fired and other high temperature ovens), and the higher value will be more in line with the NY "street" or "slice" style. In your case, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool to choose whatever value you would like.

The bowl residue compensation factor used in the above dough formulation is to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. The value I selected, 1.5%, works well for a typical KitchenAid stand mixer.

I suggest that you use your digital scale to weigh only the flour and water. For the rest of the ingredients, you should use the volume measurements.

For dough preparation and management purposes, I suggest that you follow the instructions given in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563/topicseen.html#msg19563 and in the posts that follow in that thread. In your case, if it is warm where you live, you will perhaps want to use water on the cool side or at room temperature. If you have a good thermometer, you will perhaps want to measure the various temperatures, including room temperature, flour temperature, water temperature and finished dough temperature. This is in case it becomes necessary to make adjustments to water temperature in future efforts. Ideally, if you will be using your refrigerator to store the dough balls, you want a finished dough temperature in the range of about 75-80 degrees F.

Good luck. If you proceed with the above dough formulation, whether you change any of the numbers or not, I hope that you will post photos of your results. Most often, our members use a basic dough formulation such as presented above and later make changes to achieve something that more closely meets their needs.

Peter








Offline jkb

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2010, 12:50:03 PM »
You can get the All Trumps High Gluten flour (bromated or not) at www_pennmac_com.  They repackage it in 5 lb bags if you don't want a 50 lb sack.

Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 07:28:10 PM »
Thanks for the tip on Pennmac! I'm definitely going to order some, but I'll have to hold off for a bit.  The shipping for two small bags is $15 by itself, so I'll have to wait until I need flour and can justify it. :)

I'm here today to give my report on the two pizzas made from the recipe above.  I made both earlier in the week, but haven't had the time to stop in and write anything about them.  here we go:

There are no pictures of the first pizza as it was a complete disaster.  After a 48 hour cold rise I pulled it out and allowed it to come to room temp.  When I picked it up to stretch it was really tacky and stretched very thin VERY quickly.  Within moments it became unmanageable and began sticking to itself and doubling over in places.  I laid out the now misshapen skin on a floured peel and dressed it.  When I attempted to move it from the peel to the stone some sections of the crust stuck fast.  I tried to blow under it and add a little extra flour to the trouble spots but it didn't work.  I then devised a plan to move it from the peel to a screen which was no easy task.  Once I got through all of that and baked it I couldn't get it off the screen! :)  I worked a spatula under it and managed to free most of it, but some sections of the crust wouldn't come loose and were left behind.  What i was able to salvage and eat wasn't bad, but I was left feeling frustrated due to the trouble that I had with it.  Luckily I had another crust waiting.

I left the second to cold rise for an additional day, and again allowed it to come to room temp before working with it (picture 1).  Armed with the knowledge of the trouble I had with the first one I went directly to the screen.  Instead of stretching it over my hands I laid it out on the screen and pulled it out to avoid it becoming unmanageable.  After a few minutes it was dressed and ready to go (picture 2).  After 7-8 minutes I pulled out a pizza that had cooked up nicely with what I think is good coloring (picture 3).  Again I had some difficulty removing it from the screen, but not nearly so much as the first time around.  This time I managed to get all of it off after a little work.  I soon noticed though that the bottom of the pie looked pretty pale and slightly under done.  The stone was still in the bottom of the oven and hot so I threw the pie on the peel and back in for a few minutes.  Picture 4 shows the result of that, and I think it came out well.  Picture 5 shows some of the internal texture of the crust.

As far as flavor is concerned I was pretty happy.  the leftovers were particularly good.  If I have one complaint it would be that the thicker sections were more dense and chewy than I would like.  You can see what I mean in the last photo. 

I'm sure some adjustments need to be made before my next attempt, but I'm not sure what.  I'm guessing we need to lower the hydration a little to deal with it being so tacky.  Other than that I'm not sure what we need so I'll defer to those more knowledgeable than myself.  I'm ready to go again!

--Bryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2010, 04:43:34 PM »
Bryan,

I am not sure what went wrong with the first pizza. I have a few questions that might help us find the answers:

1. Did you use a digital scale to weigh the flour and water?

2. Did you use the VWG?

3. Did you measure the water temperature you used to make the dough and did you measure the finished dough temperature?

4. Did you place the finished dough directly into the refrigerator after it was made?

5. Did you literally let the dough rise to room temperature after you removed it from the oven and, if so, how long did it take to reach that temperature?

6. Did you change anything in the dough formulation?

There is nothing in the dough formulation itself to suggest a problem. Hopefully the answer will reveal itself once you respond to the above questions.

Peter

Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2010, 04:54:50 PM »
I have a few answers :)

1. Yes, I did use a digital scale to weigh the flour and water.  Its only accurate to 1 gram, so with some of the things like the 540.69 g of flour I had to round up or down a bit.

2. Yep, also used the VWG.

3. No, I did not measure the water temperature used to make the dough or the finished dough temperature as I don't have anything to do that with.

4. Yes, the dough went directly into the refrigerator after it was made.

5. I did literally let the dough rise to room temperature after I removed it from the fridge.  As per what I've seen in some of your posts as well as those of others I let it sit somewhere between 2 and 3 hours.

6.I didn't change anything in the dough formulation aside from the slight rounding i had to do simply because of scale restrictions.

I should also note that the second one was much the same as the first, i was just prepared for the problems ahead of time.  Probably goes without saying since they were from the same batch.  Back to you. :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2010, 05:31:24 PM »
Bryan,

I believe the problem was temperature related. If the water temperature you used and the way you prepared the dough did not result in a finished dough temperature of about 75-80 degrees F, it is possible that the dough fermented too fast. Although you did not indicate where you live, if you live in a warm climate and you let the dough literally rise to room temperature, the dough could have fermented even faster and led to an overly extensible dough. The proper way to temper the dough is to let the dough sit AT room temperature, not to rise TO room temperature. Technically, you should be able to use the dough to form a skin when its temperature is around 60-65 degrees F. However, I prefer around 70 degrees F. You would have to use a good thermometer, preferably a digital one, to measure the temperature of the dough (and the water and finished dough temperatures as well). The time for a dough to properly temper is determined by the room temperature. It will take longer for a dough to warm up in winter and less time in the summer.

I think that there are a few things you can try to improve your results. For example, you can use a lower hydration percent. That will make the dough dryer and easier to shape and handle, but you will still have to use a proper temper time. There may be some loss in the openness and airiness of the finished crust/crumb by lowering the hydration percent but that is what often happens when you do that. Professionals typically use around 57-59% or so for a NY style dough so that the dough balls can be more easily opened up to form skins. That works but at the risk of having a less open crust and crumb.

You can also use water right out of the refrigerator or maybe a bit warmer. That will materially slow down the fermentation process and extend the window of usability of the dough and make it less prone to overextensibility.

A final possibility is to lower the amount of yeast, especially if it is warm where you live. For example, you might try around 0.20-0.25% IDY. That will also slow things down and result in a longer window of usability.

You will have to find your own sweet spot in terms of the measures you take to get the dough to behave as you would like it. Pizza dough involves a lot of biochemistry and is sensitive to temperatures and yeast quantity. These are the relationships you have to master to be able to make good pizzas on a consistent, reproducible basis.

Please keep us informed of your progress on this matter.

Peter


Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2010, 05:51:10 PM »
Sorry, been busy the last week or so and haven't had the time to work on another batch.

I'll agree that I might have left it sit too long thinking it needed to BE room temp.  I'm willing to try the same formulation again.

As far as the water and final temp stuff what do you recommend that I use to measure the final?  It seems like every time I think I've bought all of the things that I need for this there's still something that i don't have. :)

What should the water temp be going into the dough?  100 degrees?

I'm in Memphis, TN, but we haven't had any really hot days yet.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2010, 07:04:38 PM »
As far as the water and final temp stuff what do you recommend that I use to measure the final?  It seems like every time I think I've bought all of the things that I need for this there's still something that i don't have. :)

What should the water temp be going into the dough?  100 degrees?

I'm in Memphis, TN, but we haven't had any really hot days yet.

Bryan,

I have an IR thermometer but for your purposes a basic digital instant read thermometer should work well to measure water temperature and finished dough temperature. That is what I used to use.

It looks like Memphis may be getting warmer over the next few days, with forecasts of temperatures well in the 80s. If your kitchen is in the 70s, I would use water at a temperature of around 60-65 degrees F with a goal of getting a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. I wouldn't get concerned if if is a bit outside of that range. However, you should plan to work quickly to prepare the dough and get it into the refrigerator. A dough worked at room temperature approaches that temperature fairly quickly.

Peter

Offline XanderKane

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Re: ISO A start for a NY Style using Antimo Caputo 00
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 07:51:47 PM »
Thanks for the tip.  I don't know that I'll have time to get it going tonight, but if not definitely tomorrow.

--Bryan