Author Topic: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe  (Read 11006 times)

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Offline Toperro

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2010, 10:43:29 AM »
Hello Tranman, first all sorry my poor english please  :'(. I have some questions about the dough:
When you say "I will try to mix as much of the leftover flour Into the dough as possible". What does it mean exactly? Can I pour all the remaining flour at once on the dough and mixing? Or is not so easy and it is sprinkle a layer and go slowly increasing with the mass will absorb the flour?
Really don't I need to reactivate the ADY before adding?
When you say "with your palms leisurely knead by folding the dough onto itself" to which type of mixing you mean? can explain steep by steep knead technique please? Or you know a video link using this mixing technique?

Gracias
My english is from Google Translator, sorry...

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2010, 11:25:12 AM »
When you say "I will try to mix as much of the leftover flour Into the dough as possible". What does it mean exactly?

I try to mix as much of the premeasured flour into the dough as possible initially during the autolyse and before kneading begins.  It is not so important to mix ALL the flour in.  If the dough starts to feel dry then stop adding flour.  Ultimately after making many pizzas, you will develop the proper feeling of the dough for the amount of moisture you want in your crust.  The goal is to get the dough to this "proper" state and you will get consistent results everytime despite not using exactly the same amount of premeasured flour.   Different flours have different water absorption rates so they will all absorb a different amount of water.  Remember, use this recipe just as a guideline and adjust accordingly.  There is no wrong or right here.  Experiment with both ways and see what you like better. 

Can I pour all the remaining flour at once on the dough and mixing? Or is not so easy and it is sprinkle a layer and go slowly increasing with the mass will absorb the flour?

I like to sprinkle the remaining flour layer by layer.  Mix in a small amount by hand or mixer, and then add more flour and mix gently again.  The idea here is not to necessarily use up all the flour but again go by feel.  You will use up most of the flour or all.  The goal is to get an even mixture in the dough and not some dry spots or lumps here and there.  That's what you can get if you mix by hand and dump all the flour in at once. 


Really don't I need to reactivate the ADY before adding?  No you do not, but it will work better if you do.  This has been discussed a lot on the forum.  I don't always rehydrate but do from time to time.  Just depends on my mood I guess and if I'm using it with starter and how long I bulk rise.  If my bulk rise time is long, then I don't rehydrate the yeast.  I figure it will rehydrate during that bulk rise time.   Because this recipe I posted has a high amount of yeast, you don't have to rehydrate and you'll still get a good rise.  For anything less than 1/2 tsp per 300gm pie, then I would rehydrate to get the maximum effect from your ADY.   For now, go ahead and rehydrate your yeast.  Try using 80% vs 100% of the amount I listed to see if there's a difference for you or not.  Remember less yeast is better. 

When you say "with your palms leisurely knead by folding the dough onto itself" to which type of mixing you mean? can explain steep by steep knead technique please? Or you know a video link using this mixing technique?

I don't have a video so I will try to explain.   As I have learned recently from member Scott123, less kneading is better.  Too much kneading and the crumb can be too chewy or leathery.   My current technique I am developing has very little actual kneading.   

I basically add water, salt, yeast into a bowl and stir to dissolve.   Let it sit 5 min if you want to rehydrate the yeast.  Then add about 50% of the flour and stir with a heavy metal spoon just to mix evenly, not more.  Remember, even mixture is the goal here.  This takes about less than 1 min.   I'll use the back of the spoon to press the batter against the side of the bowl. Then I will stir in another 50% (so 75% of original amount at this point) and stir just to the point that it's all mixed, not more. 

Let it sit for 5 min, and gradually stir in (with just the spoon) the rest of the flour.   You can mixe it my hand too if you like.  If it feels to dry, then I'll stop adding flour.  But it it will take the remaining flour, I will stir in the rest.   Let this mixture sit for 5 min.  At this point it is rather wet and sticky dough.

My new method I'm testing is to skip the kneading part.  I take the dough out of the bowl and fold it in half like in the picture in the 2nd post.  Kind of like how a hotdog bun or a taco shell is folded in half.  Just grab one end and fold it over to meet the other end.  Then I rotate it to stand it on one end and fold again (top over and towards the  bottom).  I repeat this fold 3-4 times, let it rest for 5min, then refold again 3-4 times, then rest 5min.

After this I put a light dusting of flour on the ball to prevent it from being sticky.  I move the ball from hand to hand to get rid of the excess bench flour so there's just a light coating over the ball.  At this point after the dusting of flour, the dough should feel soft and kind of slack.   I lightly oil the bottom of a bowl and place the ball inside.  Cover the top with plastic wrap and jot a few notes in my notebook. 

The dough should then be placed into the refridgerator if not using it right away. 

As far as the method in post 2 with kneading using the palms it's not a special technique.  Any kneading technique can be used but again, do it leisurely and this time cut it down to around 3-4mins.  Remember, less kneading will give a better result so don't over do it.  3-4 min of kneading, rest 5m, fold a few times (do 1-2 cycles of this) and you should be done. 

Let me know if you have anymore questions.  I'll try to post a video soon.  I just have to make sure this newer technique is sound before I go making a video. 

Tran
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 05:32:39 PM by Tranman »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2010, 01:36:16 PM »
I basically add water, salt, yeast into a bowl and stir to dissolve.   Let it sit 5 min if you want to rehydrate the yeast.


Toperro,

Tran and I have gone back and forth on this issue a few times. I described the approach that I and Tom Lehmann, of the American Institute of Baking, recommend for rehydrating ADY, at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10676.msg97281/topicseen.html#msg97281. Of course, it is up to you to decide how you want to make your pizza dough. If it turns out that you have problems, you might at least be able to diagnose the problems and correct them. It may also well be that Tran's dough recipe was developed to adapt to his particular way of using the ADY. Maybe that will be adequate for your purposes.

The above said, those familiar with the way that Neapolitan doughs are made will tell you that it is common to add the yeast (usually fresh yeast or, occasionally, a natural starter) to the water and salt. However, before the yeast is added to the water, the salt, which is a hygroscopic substance, is first stirred in with the water. Then the yeast is added. In this respect, see Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1085.msg9695.html#msg9695.

Peter

Offline gtsum2

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2010, 08:42:06 PM »
Hey Tran,

I am going to attempt my first homemade dough tonight using your recipe and have some questions (being a total newb to baking, dough, etc).  I have KA Bread Flour and a Kitchenaid mixer...does your recipe call for 16 inch pies (which is what I am shooting for..or whatever size the Primo stone is).  I have ADY for my yeast....I am a bit confused as to what the proper order of putting the ingredients into the mixing bowl would be??  Also, ADY is completely new to me..do I need to hydrate it before hand??  I am looking for a NY style dough that I can make tonight and then put in fridge and then cook tomorrow...thanks for any help!  Also, what temps do you find this recipe works best at?

Offline Essen1

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2010, 08:53:41 PM »
Quote
No you do not, but it will work better if you do.  This has been discussed a lot on the forum.  I don't always rehydrate but do from time to time.  Just depends on my mood I guess and if I'm using it with starter and how long I bulk rise.  If my bulk rise time is long, then I don't rehydrate the yeast.  I figure it will rehydrate during that bulk rise time.   Because this recipe I posted has a high amount of yeast, you don't have to rehydrate and you'll still get a good rise.  For anything less than 1/2 tsp per 300gm pie, then I would rehydrate to get the maximum effect from your ADY.   For now, go ahead and rehydrate your yeast.  Try using 80% vs 100% of the amount I listed to see if there's a difference for you or not.  Remember less yeast is better. 

I'd like to think that if using ADY it is essential to rehydrate it before use. Simply because you might end up with a sub-par performance of the ADY.

Mike

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Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2010, 08:56:28 PM »
it's not essential but probably advisable.

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2010, 09:16:23 PM »
I am going to attempt my first homemade dough tonight using your recipe and have some questions (being a total newb to baking, dough, etc).  I have KA Bread Flour and a Kitchenaid mixer...does your recipe call for 16 inch pies (which is what I am shooting for..or whatever size the Primo stone is).

Gtsum, the recipe will make 2 doughballs around 300+ gms each.   Typically these can be stretched anywhere from 12-16" depending on how thick or thin you like your pizzas.   I would advise against making the pizza to the size of your stone as it is extremely difficult to land a 16" pie onto a 16" stone perfectly.  The only way you can do this is to build the pie onto a 16" pan and bake it with the pan. 

At 300 gm and 16" that would be a pretty thin pie with a rather small/thin rim.  I would shoot for around 12-13" pies for this weight of dough.

I have ADY for my yeast....I am a bit confused as to what the proper order of putting the ingredients into the mixing bowl would be??  Also, ADY is completely new to me..do I need to hydrate it before hand??  I am looking for a NY style dough that I can make tonight and then put in fridge and then cook tomorrow...thanks for any help!  Also, what temps do you find this recipe works best at?

At this point, to avoid controversy  ;D I am recommending people to rehydrate ADYYou will get more mileage out of your yeast and get more consistent results - this is a good thing.  Just FYI, out of pure laziness and keeping things simple, I have traditionally NOT rehydrated ADY.   I have also rehydrated ADY and have not notice much of a difference.  Not saying there isn't a difference as I am sure there is a difference.  The difference is much more noticeable and dramatic with using decreasing amounts of yeast.   IMO, with a big amount of yeast, it will work similarly whether you hydrate or not.   Such as with the recipe I posted.  1/2 tsp of yeast per 300gm doughball is a lot of yeast.  It will expand quickly whether you hydrate or not.  Likely faster though if rehydrated.   The recipe posted was posted when I was using yeast improperly and didn't know better and it wasn't that long ago.   :-[

That's the thing with most of what i do, it's mostly opinion and some facts.  I have made it known that I eyeball measurements and make a lot of approximations and guestimations.  It works out OK for me. 

Gtsum, back to your questions.   Thanks for giving the recipe a shot as I  think it is a decent one.  Do post up some pics and give your opinions and ideas to make it better.   I may end up tweaking the recipe and posting a modified version (with rehydrated yeast  :angel:)if there is enough consensus.

I have tested the recipe briefly at varying temps and it should work fine from 600-800.  550 is Okay too.  If you stick your primo stone in the home oven semi close to the broiler (if you have one) you can get the stone temps to 900 if you wanted.  I would bake on the Primo stone at a temp of no more than 700.  650 is plenty.   Of course the bottom will cook faster than the top so you have to watch the bottom and check it at 1 min, then every 30 seconds.  To brown the top, "rim" the edge against the broiler as it is running for 6-7 seconds, turn pie on the metal peel and repeat until done. 

To bake it in the primo, I would bake it at a stone temp of 650 with the stone against one side of the primo.  This will take advantage of the heat radiating off of the side.  Turn the pie every 45 secs or so to get even browning of the rim. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 09:18:40 PM by Tranman »

Offline gtsum2

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2010, 09:23:50 PM »
Thanks for the prompt replies!  I am going to give it a whirl here in a few minutes.  I assume my water should be warm??  (100 degrees or so)? 

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2010, 09:33:05 PM »
Thanks for the prompt replies!  I am going to give it a whirl here in a few minutes.  I assume my water should be warm??  (100 degrees or so)? 

yes warm will help the ADY rehydrate faster.   Here's the order I use for mixing ingredients.  I measure out the water into a bowl.  To it, I add yeast (ADY or starter) and stir.  Others will recommend you rehydrate the yeast for 5-10 min before adding the salt.  I personally add the salt in with the yeast and stir for about a min to dissolve everything.  I then add 50% of the flour and mix for a min to incorporate everything.

If using a KA mixer, after the initial mixing of ingredients, let the mixture autolyse for about 10 min or so and then turn the mixer on to a medium speed adding in another 50% of the leftover flour gradually over a minute or so.  I would then continue adding the remaining flour and maybe mix for a min or 2 beyond this point and definitely stop once the dough starts to ball and is just being pushed around.

Let it sit for 5mins or so, and then pull it out and do about 3-4 folds, folding it onto itself like a taco shell.  Fold it top to bottom, then left to right. 

Let it sit for another 5 mins and repeat the fold 3-4 more times and you should be done at this point.  The dough should feel smooth and soft.  If not, then rest for another 5 min and then fold again.  It should be nice and smooth, especially after you've sprinkle a bit of bench flour on it.  Shake the excess flour off.  Ball it and put a small thin layer of oil in the bottom of your container.  Spread it with your fingers and place the ball inside.  Cover and used in 2-3 hours or refridgerate for upto 24 hours.  Proof for 1 hour while oven is warming and use.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 09:48:12 PM by Tranman »

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2010, 10:23:44 PM »
It should be nice and smooth.......
Tran,
 as they say in Naples the dough should  "feel like a baby's ass".  As far as rehydrating the ADY, it is not necessary, I have tried both ways and I have not had any issues. SAF gave me 1lb of ADY 2-3 yrs ago, I'm still using without issues. Pizzaiolos in Naples also mix the fresh compressed yeast in the flour dry after the water, the salt and flour. 

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2010, 12:07:21 AM »
Thanks Nina. Good to know.  Do most pizzerias in Italy hand knead or do they all use comercial mixers?

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2010, 01:31:09 AM »
Tran,
from what I know most of them use commercial mixers whether they are spiral(the most used because they are the cheapest),then fork mixers  or diving arms(the most expensive). From what I have read Bianco in Phoenix kneads 150lbs of dough a day by hand. I know he has a very small kitchen in the pizzeria.  The commercial 25kg spiral mixers have 2 speeds so they have a choice of using the slower speed to keep the dough temp cool. If you think it takes lots of patience to make a good pizza napoletana wait until you try making a good pizza romana. Have you seen a really nice pizza al metro?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 01:57:04 AM by ninapizza23 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2010, 08:40:11 AM »
As far as rehydrating the ADY, it is not necessary, I have tried both ways and I have not had any issues.


As noted at the Red Star website at http://redstaryeast.com/lessons/yeast_types__usage/active_dry_yeast.php (BTW, Red Star is owned by SAF), it is possible to add ADY dry to ingredients. However, the recommendation is that the water be at a temperature of 120-130 degrees F. That said, I have personally used ADY dry with lower water temperatures. But that was intentional and was done to get a very long cold fermentation period, in my case, over eight days. I discussed my efforts in this regard at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. Under normal circumstances, which is over 99 percent of the time for me, I would rehydrate ADY using one of the two methods recommended by Red Star (other yeast producers recommend the same two methods). That is why when I deviate from those methods, my practice is to tell people that I have done so and why. I don't want them to turn my exception into the rule.

It is also important to keep in mind that Tran calls for about 1% ADY in his basic NY style dough recipes. That is a lot of yeast. However, by using more ADY in his case, there will be more live cells among the dead cells (ADY contains about 25% more dead cells than IDY). That means that there should be more live cells at work for fermentation purposes. In fact, using the normal methods of rehydrating ADY, it is possible that the dough will ferment too fast. In fact, at about 1% ADY, it would be in "emergency" dough territory. So, for those who choose to practice Tran's dough recipes as posted in this thread, they perhaps should mimic his methods, including the way that he handles the ADY. The reason I have been belaboring the matter of ADY rehydration is because I do not want newbies to think that it it proper to always use ADY dry and without regard for water temperature no matter what a dough recipe says. I have examined hundreds of dough recipes calling for ADY and I am hard pressed to remember any that call for using ADY dry and without regard to water temperature. Any such recipe would be the exception and not the rule. I am also mindful that modern yeast strains have been developed to be more tolerant of water temperature, salt, fermentation considerations, and other factors (see, for example, the article on yeast advancements, including a discussion of ADY, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8912.msg77255/topicseen.html#msg77255), but the basic science and technology of yeast remains pretty much the same. As noted in the abovereferenced article on yeast, it can take up to ten years to develop a new yeast from strain to commercial product.

Peter

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2010, 09:04:51 AM »
Peter you are always good at providing the information for our members.

Even though I now believe that rehydrating ADY is the proper and correct method for using it as verified by the pkg instructions, I'm curious to see the difference for myself.

Just for fun, I'll mix up a couple of batches of dough using both methods. I'll also use a modest amount as well as an amount appropriate for an emergency dough to compare the difference.  I will report my findings later.   

I suspect that the results will show that rehydrating will have a bigger impact with decreasing amounts of yeast used.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 10:10:07 AM by Tranman »

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2010, 03:49:40 PM »
Okay so I just complete the ADY rehydrating experiment.  I'll describe the process I took and the results I got.

First off, I haven't used this formula I since I posted it, so I thought it would be a good time to retest it and post some pics.  I used the high hydration ratio (67%) HG flour recipe in post #1, scaled down the formula but keep the same percentages for everything.   I also omitted the sugar and oil as I traditionally don't use them.

I used an alternated kneading technique than posted in reply#2.  It is very similar, basically just less kneading. 

This test was done to determine if hydrating ADY was necessary or not.  My hypothesis is that in high amounts, the difference would be neglible and that hydrating ADY is not necessary.  Recommended but not absolutely necessary.

The first step was to weigh out a tsp of ADY.  According to my digital scale that is only accurate to 1 gm, a tsp of ADY weighs 4gm.  I'm using Hodson Mill's ADY and the instructions on the back specify to rehydrate using water 100-115F with a bit of sugar for 5min.  Sugar was omitted for the experiment.

All ingredients were weighed out for the 2 different batches of dough and ready to be mixed.  Filtered water was used and warmed up to 110F.

Here's the recipe I used for HG flour.
flour  90gm
water  60gm
ADY  1gm (1/4tsp)
salt  1.5gm (1/4tsp)

1/4tsp ADY was added to 60gm of warm water, stirred and allowed to rehydrate for 5min (this will be ball #2).  While waiting for the ADY to rehydrate I started working on the 2nd batch (ball#1).

2nd batch (ball#1) - Salt was dissolved in the warm water.  ADY was mixed in with 1/2 of the flour and then added to the salt water.  Batter was mixed for about 1 min and the remaining flour was added in gradually over the next couple mins of mixing.  Dough was hand mixed for around 4 mins total and then let rest for 5min.   

While ball #1 (non hydrated ADY) was resting, the ADY was hydrated for 5 min and then the routine was repeated.  Salt was dissolved in the yeasted water and then flour was added, mix, and kneaded the same way.  This took about 4 min to do.  When i finished, it had been about 5 min since ball #1 rested.

Ball #1, was then folded several times, lightly floured, weighed and went into an oil bowled covered with plastic wrap and set aside.  Ball #1 weighed 145gm.  Ball#2 with the rehydrated yeast weighed 148gm.

The poppy seed method was used to monitor their expansion rates. 

The bowl tagged with the blue tape contains the rehydrated dough.  They were monitored and measurements were taken after hours 2 & 3.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 06:00:33 PM by Tranman »

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2010, 03:56:55 PM »
After hour 1, the rehydrated dough looked visually bigger by 10% or so.  After hour 2 both were looking closer to the same size, but doughball #2 (rehydrated yeast) was still slightly bigger.  Measurement were taken and both sets of poppy seeds were 1 notch under the 1.5" marking.  According to the poppy seeds both were expanding about the same rate but the rehydrated ball looked slightly bigger.

After hour 3, both measured out at 1.5" with the poppyseeds from the hydrated side a "hair" further apart.  Both looked visually expanded but the hydrated ball was still slightly bigger. I would extimate it less than 10% bigger. 


Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2010, 04:03:02 PM »
Here are the pies baked up in the home oven on firebricks at 750F and rimmed against the broiler to finish.

Pie 1 is the non-rehydrated ADY pie, and pic #2 was the rehydrated ADY pie.  Both tasted the same and had the same amount of oven spring.

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2010, 04:58:14 PM »
Maybe next week when I have time, I'll repeat the experiment using a very small amount of yeast with a 2-3 day cold ferment.  I'll post up results when I do.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2010, 05:54:12 PM »
Tran,

Thank you for running the experiment. But before commenting further, do you have the ball numbers reversed?

Peter

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: basic easy to remember NY Style dough recipe
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2010, 06:03:40 PM »
Sorry for the confusion.  I edited to clarify ball #1 (NON rehydrated ADY) and ball#2 (rehydrated ADY).  Ball #1 was kneaded 1st while the ADY for ball #2 was rehydrating. 

The pictures show the same.  0R = No rehydrating and R = Rehydrated ADY.  Finished pies are in the same order with the pie #1 (0R) first and pie #2 (R ADY) 2nd.


 



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