Author Topic: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza  (Read 20842 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1125 on: April 13, 2015, 06:07:48 PM »
BobC, pizza making can be one of the most frustrating things to learn and understand.  For me, it's right up there with understanding women and children.   :-D  You should know that most of the really great pizzas posted here on the forum are made by members who have been making pizza religiously for years.  It's a process we all have to go through and if most ppl are being honest, I'm not sure there would be very many members here who feel like they know exactly what they are doing all the time, hitting home runs all the time, are have arrived at the end of their journey yet.  It's a constant learning process.  Fortunately the more you do it, the higher the success rate becomes.  You're off to a good start though and you are in the right place among good company to do so.

If you aren't doing it already, try to read up on dough, the different ingredients, and how they affect each other.  You can find a lot of that information right here on this forum.   I remember when  I first started making pizza, I made it a goal to learn about all the different ingredients that went into making dough and their individual effect on the overall dough.  For example, you can do a search on how oil affects the dough.  Peter has amass a generous amount of posts covering many different topics.  I remember learning a lot from Peter's posts and talking to knowledgeable members like Scott123 and a few others.  The rest was up to me and learning by experimentation.  It was common for me to make dough 4-5 times a week doing many different types of experiments.  Comparing different flours, yeast, hydration levels, baking temps and ovens, etc.  I honestly think that only after having gone through that was I able to get a more clear idea on what I was doing and what direction I was heading. 

If you want to make progress, pick a pizza that you want to emulate and follow that member's recipes and methods as close as you can.  Start a dialogue with that member and you can learn even more.  Most members here are very helpful if you lavish them with praises about their pizza. 

If you want to get more holes in your crumb, stick to BF or get a hold of High Gluten (HG) flour, especially bromated flours.  If you can source a bromated bread flour, I think that is ideal for what you are trying to achieve.   I also remember reading a post where Craig said he thought your dough looked underdeveloped.  I agree with his assessment from the few pics I've seen.  Experiment with increasing your mix times a bit, and then doing a lot of stretch and folds, and reballs.  There is a lot of information on the forum covering these topics. 

Read, read, read and practice, practice, practice.   Believe it or not, you're capable of making a pizza like Vinnie's with your home oven and ingredients in front of you.  You are just lacking the knowledge and direction.  But don't give up, you will get there.

BobC,

I agree with Chau that pizza making is one of the most frustrating things to learn and understand.  I work with the same dough every week at market, and have used the same formulation for awhile.  My pizzas don't always look exactly the same and my dough balls don't always cooperate.  If you watched some of Frank's videos you can see some of the pizzas he made with some of my dough balls don't even look like my pizzas out of the same formulation.

I also agree with Chau to read up on pizza dough, hydration and different ingredients here on the forum.

When I first started making pizzas they sure looked bad for a long while.  :-D

If you want me to send you some Kyrol flour to try send me a PM.

Norma
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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1126 on: April 13, 2015, 07:21:44 PM »
Thanks to all for caring and trying to help. 

Tonight's pizza had an element of improvement in that there were more holes and they were a little bigger.  I was super careful stretching it to be gentle with it, and that seemed to help.  It didn't get browned on the bottom, but it was crispy and was also crunchy on top, but not burnt.   There was one part that got burnt underneath because it didn't fit onto the stone, so the overhang part got burnt a bit underneath.  The biggest problem was cheese.  Evidently my son doesn't like the smoked provolone, and in addition, when used in combo with muenster, the two combined get too salty, so anyway, my son didn't eat his, which is a first, and I guess I'll be eating pizza leftovers for 2 or 3 days.

My current plan is to increase hydration again on the next try, and I will need to reduce the dough ball size again to try to get the bottom done.  I think I won't try the smoked provolone on my son's side anymore, just muenster, mozzarella and regular provolone like he is used to.

Norma, thanks for the offer of the flour, but I don't need to put you out at all.  I may get some soon if they have it at costco, but anyway, I should be able to make the primo gusto bread/crust flour work eventually.

PS: I had one of the pieces of my son's side reheated for breakfast, and it tasted just fine.  He is just very sensitive flavor wise, and maybe some of the juices from my side with the hot italian sausage and shallots and cubanelle peppers flowed over onto his side. 

I'm going to stop posting to this thread.  I have the flavor as good as its going to get, and the crumb problems are likely either the flour I'm using or something I'm doing wrong handling the dough.  You can see the bubbles in the dough patty after it went upside down onto the floured board, and again as a skin on the peel, but if you notice the bottom didn't get browned again, implying to me that the stone doesn't have enough heat storage ability to bake the pizza, so my future attempts will move to higher hydration and lower dough ball weights to reduce total water content in the pizza I'm trying to bake till I get to where the bottom gets done, and I suspect at that point I might also get more oven spring as well, which I think is really what's missing.
,
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 12:59:22 PM by BobC »

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1127 on: May 05, 2015, 10:08:13 PM »
Tonight I made a pizza like what I remember.  The only thing wrong with it was the slices seemed too small and light, but that is because its just a much smaller pizza than we used to get.  I made it with 70% hydration, all bread/crust flour, and 1.5% ADY had it ready 8 hours from the starting time.  I think I figured out that I needed to knead about 10 min, then ball and rest 45 min, then fold around in on itself, ball again, and rest till time to spread, assemble and  bake.  That got my bubbles and holes that I've been looking for.  9 to 10 min on the stone got it crispy underneath and crunchy on top.

I think Vincent himself would have liked the looks, texture and taste...


Offline norma427

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1128 on: May 05, 2015, 10:17:36 PM »
BobC,

Very nice job!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1129 on: May 05, 2015, 11:08:37 PM »
Great job BobC.  It looks like a Vinnie pie from here.  Now I hope you kept detailed notes and don't change anything for awhile!  Lol.  Jk!   I'm very happy for you. 

Chau

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1130 on: May 05, 2015, 11:09:29 PM »
That looks awesome man, I bet you were smiling like Vincent in that photo.  ;D
Charles

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1131 on: May 05, 2015, 11:10:59 PM »
Even the cheese and toppings look more like a Vincent pizza...
now, let's see those detailed notes!
Charles

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1132 on: May 06, 2015, 12:11:04 AM »
Even the cheese and toppings look more like a Vincent pizza...
now, let's see those detailed notes!

Yes, it really is like an old Vincent's pizza.  I have limitations though, with my oven and cheap stone.  I have to limit the doughball to 16 oz, and that's just right for what Vincent would have called small, is my guess, about 15".  Its 70% hydration, all high protein bread/crust flour.

Water hot into mixer (which cools it to warm)
ADY 1.5% about 1 tsp
Stir
Oil 1% about 1/2 tsp, Olive oil might be fancier, but actually corn oil tastes real good
Molasses 1.27% about 1/2 tsp
Stir, wait 10 min for yeast to start
Salt 2.0 to 2.8%, to taste.  I like it saltier.  I think Vincent's was saltier, but my memory has faded, so I make it how I like it.  I want the crust to be so good that it ALL gets eaten GREEDILY.  If not, its not good enough!  When I was a kid, every single bite was eaten.  No crust was EVER thrown away.  I really mean that!  My Mom made that comment...
Stir to dissolve the salt
Bread/Crust flour, sifted in
Stir with fork
Mix/knead in mixer, slow at first, clean down sides, then faster, 10 min total
Pull out quick and ball with oiled hands into oiled, covered tupperware, put in 100 degree oven with light on
Rest/Rise 45 min
Fold in on itself 16 times, then ball again, and put back in covered tupperware
Rise about 5 1/2 hrs, remove from oven
Preheat oven and stone 90 minutes to max (maybe 550)
Sprinkle flour onto board and 50/50 semolina/cornmeal mix onto peel
Spill dough "patty" very gently out of box onto floured board, sprinkle bottom with flour, spread in the air stretching from knuckles to knuckles, avoiding touching the outer 2" or so till middle is windowpane and pie is about 15", make sure bottom is not sticky, lay onto peel and adjust, avoiding disturbing outer crust area.  Vincent, of course would have tossed it once, maybe twice, instead, but I found Frank's method worked well, with less risk, LOL, and if I'm careful I don't destroy the bubbles.
Gently spread on 1/2 cup sauce quickly, avoiding the outer 1 3/4" or so, then without actually touching the edge area get a few drops of sauce here and there.  Its ok if you use a little extra.
Toppings wise, Vincent NEVER measured anything, and you'd never have complained there was too little of anything.  I came to these quantities by going higher to the point where I had puddles of grease from the cheese and pepperoni, then backing off to where there was only a REASONABLE amount of grease, that it would absorb back into the pizza, it seemed, LOL.
Scatter 7 oz of cheese.  Make sure to scatter a few shreds here and there around the outside of the crust.  I like mostly provolone.  Mix of mozzarella and smoked provolone would be Vincent's choice. 
Scatter on 40 slices of pepperoni.  My Daughter would let you know I counted them, and my best friend would tell you they were sliced too thin.  The reality is that in honor of Vincent I made no effort to count and put about 6" of hand sliced pepperoni on.  It was about right.  Just borderline almost too much grease where there was a bit of a puddle, but a minute later the pizza had absorbed almost all of it buy was still crunchy and crispy.
Shake to make sure its loose
Slide it in and bake 9 to 10 min
Things should be browned, browner than golden, but not black.

Total time around 8 or 9 hours.  I probably could have baked a bit sooner if I had needed to, but the dough "patty" looked about right, risen like what I remember, and jiggly like a jellyfish blob.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:37:44 AM by BobC »

Offline deb415611

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1133 on: May 06, 2015, 06:13:21 AM »
Congrats Bob.  That pizza looks great
Deb


Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1134 on: May 06, 2015, 07:28:03 AM »
Congrats Bob.  That pizza looks great

Thanks.  I was very happy with it, too. 

I think I owe Jackie Tran a thanks for that "fold in on itself" idea, which is a take off on his "mini folds" on his lazy man's bread.  That and the longer knead time from Mike, I think, are what solved it.

Offline HBolte

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1135 on: May 06, 2015, 08:51:38 AM »
That's a good looking pizza!
Hans

Offline ThePieman

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1136 on: May 09, 2015, 05:01:50 PM »
I cant believe how big this thread is. Especially for a pizza business that has only two locations in th Pittsburgh area. Have any of you eaten a vinnie pie? There are tons of stories floating around about how infamous vincents pies are.

BobC, when trying to replicate a vincents pie, dont forget to include a few bent staples sprinkled on top.  >:D
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 08:34:30 PM by ThePieman »

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1137 on: May 09, 2015, 11:21:17 PM »
A lot of what made this thread long was my lack of basic pizza making know how, and many side tracks.

Staples are easy to count.  There were 2 on each corner.   But if you are making it yourself, you don't need to worry about those  things. 

BTW, my interest is not in what is called a "Vinnie Pie".  At this point I realized that I did eat that one time, the last time I was at Vincent's, and the only time I ever was at the one in Plum Boro.  The pizza's I'm making lately remind me of the Vincent's I used to eat as a kid, except the cheese is a bit different and they aren't huge like his were.  Neither can be helped since my oven and stone can't make anything bigger and my wife and son don't like the smoked cheese.

Anyway, I made four of them tonight, and I was real happy with how they turned out.  And no, there was no puddle of anything like in the "Vinnie Pie" pics.

Feel free to contribute some knowledge of the old Vincent's pizzas before the days of "Vinnie Pies", from back when Vincent made them him self and served them from his little window on the Admore........

PS: One thing I did a bit different this time was to use 10% AP flour again.  Last time I used all bread/crust flour and the skins didn't want to spread and were more prone to tearing as a result.  With a small percentage of the flour being AP it was a lot easier to spread it, so I think I'll do it that way from now on.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 06:50:11 AM by BobC »

Offline parallei

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1138 on: May 09, 2015, 11:36:06 PM »
Great work, BobC. :chef:

Offline pacdunes

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1139 on: May 10, 2015, 08:09:33 PM »
Not knowing anything at all about Vinnies Pizza, BobC, your pie is outstanding and I'm looking forward to replicating one at home.


 

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