Author Topic: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie  (Read 29637 times)

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Offline ieat

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2010, 10:51:09 PM »
I owned the G3 Ferrari for a coupla months and the problem is you never know when you can put the pizza in because if the stone is too hot, you will burn the pizza.  So finally I got myself an infrared thermometer and that made a huge difference.  When you heat the stone till 260-280 degrees C, the pizza bakes nicely at 5 minutes at level 3! Better than my oven because it is hard to get the char on the bottom with an electric oven.
Never waste your calories on yucky food!


Offline hotsawce

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2010, 10:57:56 PM »
It wouldn't seem hard for a company that actually new pizza to make one where the top element's heat was adjustable or something. That would be nice to have to make pizza at home

Offline ieat

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2010, 10:32:27 AM »
My latest pie.  Using Tranman's recipe, I used 2 cups Breadflour 1 cup AP flour and 2 teaspoon Olive Oil.  This is better than my first attempt.  The middle was chewy the crust was chewy on the inside and crisp on the outside.  I think I shall stick to this.

One of the things I think is important is to use chunks of mozarella instead of shredded.  Buffalo is of course the best, big chunks melt slower.  Ideally, you would want to put the cheese on only after 2 minutes of baking so that the cheese will not melt too much.   I did not do this with this pie, but next round I shall do it so that the mozzarella is soft but not all melted.

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2010, 02:21:34 PM »
Les, that pie looks very tasty.  I like gooey oily cheese and sauce look. A job well done.  I'm glad you found a combination of flours that your like.  You have progressed very quickly. You can use that recipe as a base now.  It's yours to modify and make your own.  Keep up the work and keep posting those nice looking pies.  ;)

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2010, 11:41:35 PM »
Les, that pie looks very tasty.  I like the gooey oily cheese and sauce look. A job well done.  I'm glad you found a combination of flours that you like.  You have progressed very quickly. You can use that recipe as a base now.  It's yours to modify and make your own.  Keep up the good work and keep posting those nice looking pies.  ;)

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2010, 11:45:42 PM »
Whoops, I was just trying to correct some grammar mistakes above.
 :angel:

I made a very good crust tonight.  Very very close to the original pie that I posted some time ago.  Definitely getting closer to it.  Here are the shots of the crumb.  It was very airy and fluffy.  Soft and tender.  Compare it to the original perfect crumb (last picture).



Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2010, 01:17:46 PM »
Just wanted to update this thread I started some time ago.  After 6 months of experimenting and I have finally been able to reverse engineer my own perfect pie that I made accidently when I first started out. 

It has not been easy but I had to backtrack and nail down the individual components that make the crust that I like so much. 

-It's a high hydration dough to give a moist crumb. 
-A minimal kneaded dough to give a tender crumb and not leathery or dry.
-I use a well proofed dough and a gentle touch when opening.   
-I also used a stretch and fold technique to trap the big air bubbles.
-Baked in the realm of 4min plus to get the exterior crispy.  The bottom has a slight crisp but will soften up after slicing and sitting around for a bit. 
-reheating the next day retains it's excellent soft crumb and crunch. Might even be better the 2nd day.

Pics of the recent pie vs the 1st perfect pie. 

« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 01:22:51 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2010, 01:32:36 PM »
i go through this myself.  i try to base my 'perfect pie' off of a sicilian dough recipe i found here, but use it as an american style hand tossed.

maybe someone can recognize the recipe?

poolish:

1.5c flour 1.75c water 1t yeast

the rest after a 5 hr sit:

2-2.25c flour    1t yeast   1.5t salt    1T honey

i've experimented with increasing/decreasing hydration, oil, sugar, yeast etc trying to dial in the texture/crumb but the taste is always awesome, like sourdough and italian bread at the same time.   for the life of me i can't find the recipe in the sicilian section, regardless of how many times i search for it
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2010, 11:50:56 PM »
Tonight I returned to my first love.  The pie that got me really hooked on pizza making.  Turned out an excellent pie.  Very close to that perfection but just a bit off.  Will use just a bit less dough next time or stretch a bit thinner.

Recipe

100% HG bleached and bromated flour from Sam's Club
72% water.  I would start with about 65% for the beginner.
10% active starter
0.3% IDY
2% salt  (need to up it to 2.5%)
2% oil

Method
Add starter and IDY to water and stir.  Then dissolve salt and add oil.   Sift in all the flour and squeeze between hands to get an even mixture (2-3min).  Make sure there are no lumps.

Let rest 20-30min.  Do a series of folds (5-10?).  Fold doughball in half like a taco shell and press halves together.  Fold the 2 other ends together again keeping the outside surface of the dough always on the outside.  You are folding the dough onto itself.   Do this about 5-6 times.  You should notice that the dough is alot smoother at this point compared to it's condition prior to the autolyse. 

Now cover the dough with the bowl you mixed it in and let it bulk rise for about 2 hours.  You want to see some increase in size of the doughball. 

30m into the bulk rise and especially after the 2 hours of bulk, the dough will absolutely windowpane beautifully and should look as smooth as a baby's bottom.   Weigh, divide, and ball the dough and place in well oiled clear plastic containers. 

When balling the dough, avoid the temptation of balling it too many times or doing too many folds here.  Only 1-3 folds or just the minimal amount to get it into a ball shape or similar roundish shape.   Don't worry about creases in the dough.  As the dough proofs all these lines and what not will even out.

I like to use clear plastic bowls with lids like Mr. Verasano does.   Use a size that is appropriate for your doughball.  When you place the ball into the container it should take up almost all the space at the bottom the container.  This will force the dough to rise more up than out.  This is one trick that will make a difference in how aerated your finished dough is. 

Make sure to oil the container well.  Just enough to cling on the side walls of the container.  You don't want it pooling at the bottom though, that would be too much oil.  I usually place a few drops and spread it with my fingers along the bottom and side wall.

Now if you plan on baking the same day, then let the dough rise up till it about doubles in size in the containers.   If not baking right away, then place into the fridge.  This dough will last about 1-2 days.   
For a longer cold ferment, just decrease your IDY to about 0.1 or 0.2%. 

With 2% oil, I find that I like a less than 24 hour cold fermented dough.  This works out well for my schedule.  I like to make dough at my leisure in the evenings the night before.  Put them to sleep in the fridge until the next day.  Since my work schedule varies, I'm never sure of when I will get off that day.   About an hour prior to coming home, I ask my wife to take the dough out and set it on the counter.   This dough will be ready to bake within 1-2 hours of being out of the fridge.  The doughballs will have risen aproximately 90% of their full potential in the fridge.

On opening the dough.  Dust the top liberally with flour and turn the container upside down, the dough should fall out on its own or with minimal coaxing.  You don't want to wrestle the dough out as you will degass the dough.   You can use a papertowel to absorb any excess oil on the dough's surface.  Now liberally flour the top of the dough ball (was the bottom).  You can pick up the dough ball, shake off the excess flour, and clear the bench of excess flour where you plan to open the dough.   Open the dough gently to avoid degassing the dough too much.  How easily or tough a dough opens depends on how much gluten has been developed in it from kneading, folding, balling, cold fermenting, hydration ratio, use of oil, and generally how well fermented it is. 

A properly developed dough should open easily but not too easily.  If the dough is practically falling apart in your hands then there isn't enough gluten developed in the dough.  Next time, lower your hydration ratio or oil amount, and/or increase kneading/folding/balling.  That should fix the problem.  If your dough is too tough to open, then there is too much gluten developed into the dough.  You just have to practice and tweak the variables to find your happy medium.   The more practice you get, the more comfortable you will be with working with wetter doughs. 

This pie below is baked in the home oven.  Preheat the oven at 500F for about an hour.   The pie is loaded onto a stone temp of about 550 and baked for about 5 min.  I usually rim it against the broiler just a bit to finish it off.  The result is a crusty crunchy shell with a soft aerated crumb.   I topped this one with buffala mozz, grated parm & romano, pepperoni, and cremini mushrooms.  It was very tasty.

Happy pizza making,
Chau

« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 10:55:57 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline gtsum2

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2010, 10:11:51 AM »
beautiful pies, chau!  That crumb looks fantastic!


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2010, 10:30:51 AM »
Tonight I returned to my first love.  The pie that got me really hooked on pizza making.  Turned out an excellent pie.  Very close to that perfection but just a bit off.  Will use just a bit less dough next time or stretch a bit thinner.

An excellent looking pie it is for sure.

Craig
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PaulsPizza

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2010, 10:32:06 AM »
Chau, that was a really nice write up and lovely looking pizza! :pizza: :chef:

Do you have a picture of you dough ball in the individual container just after you placed it in there? I would like to see how much of a gap you are leaving in the container.

Cheers buddy,

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2010, 10:49:27 AM »
Thanks guys.  Paul, the above pie is 250gm.  I'm looking through my old pictures and only found pictures of 200gm balls in these containers pre and post proof.   The containers that cone in slightly make getting the balls out easier but the straight walled containers work well too. 

Nothing wrong with using dough trays.  I think some professional operators place the balls close enough together (I'm thinking Keste's and Difara's here) so that when they proof up together, the balls help support eachother. 

From the few tests I've run (which are not that scientific), the balls that where proofed in smaller containers as opposed to allowing to free proof and flatten out always seem to produce a more airy rim.  Not sure if there is truth to this or just in my mind, but I'm convinced enough to keep doing that way. 

Ideally I would let these proof up a bit more.   The trick to getting an aerated crumb is to 1) start with an aerated dough (well fermented dough), 2) avoid degassing the rim when opening, and 3) high even heat. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 11:09:50 AM by Jackie Tran »

PaulsPizza

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2010, 10:54:26 AM »
Thanks Chau, I am looking into individual vs dough trays for my shop and I am leaning towards the individual containers for the same reasons as you have mentioned (plus it will save me a lot of )

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2010, 11:01:43 AM »
Thanks Chau, I am looking into individual vs dough trays for my shop and I am leaning towards the individual containers for the same reasons as you have mentioned (plus it will save me a lot of )

Paul

Though I don't own dough trays and haven't tried this yet but next time I make pizza, I'll proof 4 balls in a small pyrex dish and let them proof into eachother supporting one another up.  I'll see how easy it is to get them apart without degassing them.   I would imagine the trick to separating such balls is to either use oil and or have a well kneaded/developed dough dusted with bench flour prior to proofing.  If it works well, I would think that having dough trays would be more efficient than individual containers as washing one tray would be a lot easier than mutiple containers. 

Chau

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2010, 11:27:13 AM »
....I'll proof 4 balls in a small pyrex dish and let them proof into eachother supporting one another up.  I'll see how easy it is to get them apart without degassing them....   

Chau

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Offline ponzu

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2010, 04:07:40 PM »
Man in the third pic on reply 48 I can almost taste that crunchy rim and open crumb. 

Great work JT!

Do you ever do larger format pies like 14-16 inchers?  For some reason I prefer the aesthetic/tactile sense of a slightly larger pie.  I know its not a possibility in th MBE but just wondering what your thoughts are on format in general.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2010, 04:52:40 PM »
Jet deck, yes the dough scraper or dough blade would be used to cut the dough out.   

Thanks ponzu.  You CAN taste it.  The crust of this pie tasted very similar to a tartine loaf made with the same flour minus the oil.   It is a crusty shell with a soft inside.  If you like your tartine bread, then you would like this crust.   

Even though I started with a 72% hydration ratio, the 2% oil and 10% starter really puts this hydration at around 75%, which is close to Chad's 77% for BF. 

I will do larger format pies when having guests over.  I'll do 14" pies since the stone I use is 16".  It is easier for me than NP pies since I bake this style of pie low in the oven away from the burner.   I want a lower heat and longer bake.   For a NP style pie, I have to bake it close to the burner/broiler and that thing is only 10"x12", so a larger pie than that is not feasible as parts of the pie won't get the same heat as the rest. 

I would have stretched this one even thinner to 12-13" but the dough wouldn't allow it.  I usually let the strength of the dough determine how large I stretch a pie without trying to push it beyond it's limits. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 05:02:30 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2010, 07:07:04 PM »
Most excellent Chau!
Just a beautiful crumb and I really like the crusty shell you achieved.  Wish I could bite into that one...
Hog

Offline norma427

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2010, 12:14:36 AM »
Chau,

Your return to you first love looks great!   ;D  You really did a good job.  The crumb looks fantastic.

Norma
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