Author Topic: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie (Read 20159 times)

Tscarborough · « **Reply #80 on:** December 03, 2010, 12:40:44 PM »

No,no,no. I am not raining on anyone's parade, I admire the capacity of you guys to do it. I am even working to better myself at it. Hell, I bought a scale because of Chau!

Tscarborough · « **Reply #81 on:** December 03, 2010, 12:45:38 PM »

I apologize if that is the impression I gave, if so it was entirely without intent. I'll say it plain: I read every single post on this board, and take away as much as possible from each. There is no" right "way to make a pizza or "best" type of pizza.

You, Chau, Petzza, TXCraig, Norma, all you guys (and girls), I respect and admire.

Tscarborough · « **Reply #82 on:** December 03, 2010, 12:53:27 PM »

OK, I went back and re-read my posts. I apologize again, because I do sound like an ass, but I wasn't trying to.

Essen1 · « **Reply #83 on:** December 03, 2010, 01:05:45 PM »

Quote from: Jet_deck on December 03, 2010, 12:36:21 PM

You know that Chau has a very strict regiment when he plans to cook pizza, he posts in detail (which I personally appreciate), so I guess this comment is directed at him?

Why don't you get that chip off you shoulder, and just say it this way." Chau you are stupid to take so much time to make your dough " or maybe this "Chau- Its not rocket science, its just flippin dough" or "Chau- your cooked pizza is charred to much and that is an imperfection, probably because of your regime"

It seems as though some people continually p1ss on other peoples parades. I have my rain jacket on, and will stay until the parade is over.

Not to interrupt your very interesting conversation here, but what makes you think member Tscarborough is trying to piss on Chau's or anyone else's parade? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not defending nor taking sides for anyone here; I'm just curious.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #84 on:** December 03, 2010, 02:38:54 PM »

Tscarborough, I wasn’t offended at all by any of your posts. A few of your comments actually had me chuckling. I actually prefer open honest opinionated dialogue over none at all. Thank you everyone for your insightful comments. Great posts all. I find that when ppl are passionate about a topic, there is usually real life experience fueling that passion. So I'm always curious to know the explanation behind the ideas.

As far as perfection goes, I started this thread a long time ago when I was just learning how to make pizza. If you re-read the first post, it will explain why I started the thread and my purpose at the time. As I have steadily progress in my pizza making, I have begun to change my opinion on perfection. I posted about that recently here.

Reply #278
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11126.260.html

I no longer think of any particular pizza as perfect, but rather great. You can have great pizza and very mediocre pizza. I want to make pizza that inspires me and others. To me, just slopping 4 ingredients together won’t get you there. There is specificity in getting a particular outcome. It’s maybe like mixing a good mortar. There are different ways of doing it but some methods yield significantly better results.

Though I can make similar pizza now without too much effort, getting there hasn’t been easy. And you are right, my standards continually change, so I keep resetting the bar.

If you read my posts, you’ll see that I’m actually not that regimented. Detailed and purposeful in my experiments – yes. I actually don’t subscribe to any methods or routine and don't like to. One of my ultimate goals has always been to make pizza by feel like the Italian masters. That is to know the dough so well that I can tell if it's lacking something or if it will make good pizza or not. One of my other goals, is to be able to make the needed adjustments to make great dough regardless of the type of flour, yeast, or time frame given. I’d like to become versatile and flexible in my pizza making. Thus my quest to try many different ingredients and techniques. The method I posted above is just ONE of the methods I use now. I will change up the method if it’s a different flour or if a mixer is involved.

Rigid methodology? – definitely not. Guidelines and specific points of dough? – absolutely. The quest continues….

Cheers,
Chau

Tscarborough · « **Reply #85 on:** December 03, 2010, 03:23:05 PM »

Thanks, I certainly wasn't trying to insult anyone, and what I meant by regiment your (not you, the royal "your") method was to do the same thing every time, which by implication means perfection has been achieved.

I have been making pizza regularly for a long time, and my methodology has undergone only 2 big changes from the 70s:

In the mid-80s I worked at a locally owned pizza joint that had a cooked-down spicy sauce (that the owner made late at night by himself). Prior to that I did not use much if anything in my sauce besides salt and tomatos.

After reading on this board, I went from a dough that was made and used in the same day to a cold fermented method.

Of course, I use wildly varying ingredients and make different styles of pizza, but the way I make them is the same.

chickenparm · « **Reply #86 on:** December 05, 2010, 01:12:30 AM »

Hey Chau,
You about ready to open your own place?

Your pies in the pics are what I wish the rest of the world would make.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #87 on:** December 05, 2010, 09:58:30 PM »

Quote from: Outatime on December 02, 2010, 09:45:13 PM

Apparantly, many here seek to reproduce that perfect pie as well. I am no exception.

I made a dough last summer that produced that most incredible pizza crust I've ever eaten. The entire family could not believe how good it was: the crumb was perfectly chewy and soft and it looked fantastic, but the most incredible part was a wonderfully light, crisp bite that is tough to describe.

I didn't record what I did, but I know that it was hand kneeded for about 6 minutes using bread flour and over 70% hydration. It was cold proofed for 2 days. And the oven was set to 500-deg. and that I used a 3/4" fibrament stone set on the middle shelf. The toppings didn't matter: the crust was the star of the show.

I've tried to reproduce it ever since. It was "just another pie" that turned out to be the most amazing pie I have ever eaten. I will jump for joy if I ever come close again!

Outatime, thanks for your post. I'm glad there are at least a few ppl who understand where I'm coming from. My first really great pie that I dubbed that "perfect" pie really trandscended all others that I had made at the time. If you look at the last picture in reply #4, it shows a feather-like and feather-lite crumb. Of all the pizzas I've ever made, I have not be able to duplicate this texture exactly. Close but not exactly. It is very unique in my eyes and mind. If anyone can show a picture of a similar crumb and convince me that they have achieved such a feat, I would be happy to send them a worthwhile gift.

This specific crust and crumb was made by accident and it may be a once in a lifetime experience for me.

Chau

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #88 on:** December 05, 2010, 10:02:28 PM »

Quote from: chickenparm on December 05, 2010, 01:12:30 AM

Hey Chau,
You about ready to open your own place?

Your pies in the pics are what I wish the rest of the world would make.

Bill, that is too kind of you. Most of my pies are good and satisying for sure. Probably would do very well in a commercial type setting. It will be unlikely that I ever have a pizzeria.

Chau

Jet_deck · « **Reply #89 on:** December 06, 2010, 10:13:54 AM »

Quote from: Jackie Tran on December 05, 2010, 09:58:30 PM

... If anyone can show a picture of a similar crumb and convince me that they have achieved such a feat, I would be happy to send them a worthwhile gift....

Chau

Hell, I will Photoshop a picture to get the Bosch

new2dough · « **Reply #90 on:** December 08, 2010, 09:51:46 AM »

Quote from: Jackie Tran on April 28, 2010, 12:17:14 PM

Here's the result of Monday nights pies in search of that elusive "perfect" pie. Did I find him? No, but I was close. They were still really good pies.

Wonderful pictures. Those are making my mouth watery!
A question; With the high amount of water you use, how stable and pliable is the dough when you work with it/stretch it?
From personal experience, if I use more than 50% water (in baker's percent) the dough sags/droops if I don't strictly keep it on the table. The shape turns oval once I try to hold the stretched dough in my hands longer than 1 second.

Tscarborough · « **Reply #91 on:** December 08, 2010, 09:56:36 AM »

Why lift it off the table? I just press it out, no need to go all Pizza Hut on it and throw it around.

new2dough · « **Reply #92 on:** December 08, 2010, 10:08:46 AM »

Quote from: Tscarborough on December 08, 2010, 09:56:36 AM

Why lift it off the table? I just press it out, no need to go all Pizza Hut on it and throw it around.

I have to transport the dough sheet from the table -> pre-heated oven plate.
I don't mind not throwing a pizza, but I'd like to be able to at least dust off the flour off of it.

Tscarborough · « **Reply #93 on:** December 08, 2010, 10:23:50 AM »

I see. No peel to work off of?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #94 on:** December 08, 2010, 11:00:52 AM »

In Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10449.msg92753/topicseen.html#msg92753, I quoted Tom Lehmann on the matter of spinning pizza skins. He often refers to himself as "toss-spin challenged" when it comes to spinning pizza skins. Even he knows that it takes a lot of practice to be able to open up and spin and toss skins.

If the hydration of my dough permits tossing and spinning pizza skins, I do it, just for fun and personal enjoyment and to keep from getting too rusty on the routine. However, when I have watched pizza makers in NYC make their pizzas, there was no tossing and spinning. I have seen it in places like Papa John's but the workers don't go overboard in the routine and try to show off, like the PJ worker in the video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPm8aHvpjE8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPm8aHvpjE8</a>

.

Peter

Tscarborough · « **Reply #95 on:** December 08, 2010, 11:04:45 AM »

If you are making an 18" or 20" pie, sure, but I don't see many of us doing that.

new2dough · « **Reply #96 on:** December 08, 2010, 11:56:58 AM »

Quote from: Tscarborough on December 08, 2010, 10:23:50 AM

I see. No peel to work off of?

I have a peel. But I still would have to move the pizza from the bench to the peel...

new2dough · « **Reply #97 on:** December 08, 2010, 12:04:04 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on December 08, 2010, 11:00:52 AM

In Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10449.msg92753/topicseen.html#msg92753, I quoted Tom Lehmann on the matter of spinning pizza skins. He often refers to himself as "toss-spin challenged" when it comes to spinning pizza skins. Even he knows that it takes a lot of practice to be able to open up and spin and toss skins.

If the hydration of my dough permits tossing and spinning pizza skins, I do it, just for fun and personal enjoyment and to keep from getting too rusty on the routine. However, when I have watched pizza makers in NYC make their pizzas, there was no tossing and spinning. I have seen it in places like Papa John's but the workers don't go overboard in the routine and try to show off, like the PJ worker in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPm8aHvpjE8.

Peter

I agree that dough tossing is definitely more than show. I've noticed that the spin helps to make the surface somewhat drier = better crunchiness factor.

That PJ worker is amazing. :-) I very curious about the hydration levels in that dough batch... cannot be anywhere near 55-60%?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #98 on:** December 08, 2010, 01:14:03 PM »

Quote from: new2dough on December 08, 2010, 12:04:04 PM

That PJ worker is amazing. :-) I very curious about the hydration levels in that dough batch... cannot be anywhere near 55-60%?

new2dough,

When I have made my Papa John clone doughs, which contain a lot of oil, I have used a hydration in the range of about 55-58%. However, my dough balls can't compete in terms of quality and robustness with a dough ball that is made in the highly commercialized equipment that Papa John's uses in its commissaries (Quality Control Centers) under tightly-controlled, laboratory-like conditions. I would have to lower the hydration and/or amount of oil to be able to have a fighting chance.

I'm not sure whether Chau does any tossing or spinning of his dough skins in search of that elusive "perfect" pizza. I am sure his doughs are more robust than mine because of the dough regimen he uses, which has to be better than what my KitchenAid mixer can produce, but it is quite possible that he could toss and spin his dough skins if he so wanted.

Peter

new2dough · « **Reply #99 on:** December 08, 2010, 01:43:22 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on December 08, 2010, 01:14:03 PM

new2dough,

When I have made my Papa John clone doughs, which contain a lot of oil, I have used a hydration in the range of about 55-58%. However, my dough balls can't compete in terms of quality and robustness with a dough ball that is made in the highly commercialized equipment that Papa John's uses in its commissaries (Quality Control Centers) under tightly-controlled, laboratory-like conditions. I would have to lower the hydration and/or amount of oil to be able to have a fighting chance.

I'm not sure whether Chau does any tossing or spinning of his dough skins in search of that elusive "perfect" pizza. I am sure his doughs are more robust than mine because of the dough regimen he uses, which has to be better than what my KitchenAid mixer can produce, but it is quite possible that he could toss and spin his dough skins if he so wanted.

Peter

Peter

Hi Peter, I didn't realize that the equipment itself could have such crucial impact on the result. I don't even own a KitcheAid, just a very simple kneading machine...
I guess I have to accept that it's going to be very difficult to achieve a similar result the professional kitchens have.

Me, I have to make the best out of a basic kneading machine, low-temperature oven and low protein flour. :-P

(I'm feeling like I'm hijacking this thread)