That elusive yet "Perfect" pie

[norma427]

Norma, I'm glad you posted this as this is partly how I got into working with high hydration doughs a year ago.   I started out kneading dough by hand using the french method of kneading as mentioned above by New2dough.   Not having a mixer I dedicated myself to learning how to knead dough.  Naturally I looked at different kneading methods for breads and settled on this french method.  Base on other members long knead times, I ended up with tough and leathery crumbs.   To fix this I naturally increase my hydration levels, which made the dough slack.

I began adding the folds in to mitigate this slackness.  I also noted that it trapped air bubbles that would seemingly show up in the end crust.  Using common sense, I figured more folds would naturally trap more bubbles.  This is how I learned that I could over fold a dough and have a hard time opening it.   The posts I've been making lately about how to work with high hydration doughs and gluten development have been the result of a year's worth of active experimenting.   The Tartine book, with it's great pictures, have really help me tie this all together and confirm a lot of what I've been learning in the past year.   Without the forum, I would not have been able to make near the progress that I have.  I'm not there yet, but definitely enjoying the ride. 

Chau

Chau,

I know how long you have been experimenting in all your aspects of dough making.     I also think the Tartine book taught me a lot about handling high hydrations doughs, in combination with your posts.  I did work with some really high hydrations in the Sicilian thread, some up to around 84% and they needed to be plopped out of the container.  I did do stretch and folds on those doughs by the recommendations of UnConundrum (Warren), from his breading baking class at Fred’s. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10020.msg87337.html#msg87337 Warren told me at that class and afterwards how he sometimes works with really high hydration doughs.  Those doughs did come out nice and airy after experimenting.

In this thread is where I sometimes I used really high hydrations http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg89636.html#msg89636 and gave thanks to Warren for helping learn.  Warren has some videos somewhere on making dough.  I don’t know if you ever saw them or not.  Finally this is how I recently tied all this together, with all the members that have helped me, with you included. Matt and Toby also helped me along the learning trail of trying different methods.

Norma

[new2dough]

N2D, I'm curious as to how this pizza stone disturbed your workflow?  In what way?  Can you clarify?  I understand your point here but I offer a couple of points to consider. 

1) a good pizza stone that can retain and give off heat well is essential to achieving a good oven spring.
2) I wouldn't push anyone to do anything uncomfortable but keep in mind that often times when we experiment outside of our comfort zone, it can be very rewarding.  We can discover new techniques, learn about ourselves, and achieve improve outcomes.

Can you post a picture of your stone.  Member Scott123, is a stone expert and can help you learn how to use the stone properly if you so desire.   

Chau

Hi Chau,

I failed to explain in my previous post, sorry.
What I meant to say was, pre-heating the stone in the oven is fine, but handling it is quite difficult.
The main problems I encountered were ;

a. The stone (+ oven tray) is heavy and demands a delicate balancing or the stone is prone to slide off the oven tray when moving it from the oven to kitchen table for topping
b. When the pizza sheet is placed on the stone for topping, I have to do it very fast because the sheet starts to develop bubbles almost immediately,
c. Putting back the tray & stone into the oven is a delicate balancing act (a), with the high risk of allowing too much oven heat out because the oven door was open too long...
d. The stone itself absorbed lot of moisture which made the crust too dry (probably higher % of liquid will remedy the problem).

I agree with you though that one needs to think outside the comfort zone in order to develop!

Here's a picture of the stone I bought (sorry about the mess. some of the topping slided off the sheet during an attempt to use a different technique..it is impossible to get it off, the stone itself absorbs every juice it can get its surface on) :

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

Maybe you have addressed this before but have you been able to get your Bosch machine to yield a comparable dough in terms of gluten development with different types of flours and hydration values as you can get by hand kneading with the same flours, or do you find that you have to "manipulate" the Bosch to get the same results?

I was also curious to know if you have ever made doughs at lower elevations and less dry conditions and, if so, with what results and differences. Maybe I can answer my own question by standiing on a chair the next time I make some dough and see if I can detect a difference  .

Peter

I have Peter, but more or less through passive observations.  I haven't done direct experimentation of dough side by side comparing doughs mixed by hand vs the bosch.  I have, by in large gone back to making dough by hand when I recently discovered that I could indeed make the same quality of dough by hand or by using the bosch.   Also whether making dough by hand or using a mixer, my overall method does not vary much between the two.

When making dough with the bosch, I don't have to manipulate it in any fashion.  Depending on the hydration ratio and strength of the dough, I would varying the mix time but keeping a general rule of minimal kneading.   I like to divide my total expected fermentation time and use about half of that time for bulk fermentation.   When I go to divide the dough and ball it up, this is a very critical time for me.  Depending on how the dough feels here and how much I want to strengthen the dough, I will vary the number of folds added during balling.  This is largely done by "feel" to achieve a certain feel/strength in the dough.   I do this step whether the dough has been hand kneaded or with a mixer.  

This correct strength or feel of the dough is later confirmed when I open up the dough.  I'm looking for the dough to open up in a specific manner.  Mostly the dough will open easily without much effort but not too easily.  This tells me about the strength of the dough and whether I have balled it appropriately or not early on.  

Because I have been mostly happy with this method of dough management, I have been mostly sticking to this workflow and not deviating too much or not experimenting too much with the bosch.  I may revisit doing dough experiments with the bosch down the road.

If your hypothesis is correct about kneading dough while standing on a chair, I should also be able to achieve similar results respectively by mixing dough while lying on the floor.  

Chau

[new2dough]

Norma, I'm glad you posted this as this is partly how I got into working with high hydration doughs a year ago.   I started out kneading dough by hand using the french method of kneading as mentioned above by New2dough.   Not having a mixer I dedicated myself to learning how to knead dough.  Naturally I looked at different kneading methods for breads and settled on this french method.  Base on other members long knead times, I ended up with tough and leathery crumbs.   To fix this I naturally increase my hydration levels, which made the dough slack.

I began adding the folds in to mitigate this slackness.  I also noted that it trapped air bubbles that would seemingly show up in the end crust.  Using common sense, I figured more folds would naturally trap more bubbles.  This is how I learned that I could over fold a dough and have a hard time opening it.   The posts I've been making lately about how to work with high hydration doughs and gluten development have been the result of a year's worth of active experimenting.   The Tartine book, with it's great pictures, have really help me tie this all together and confirm a lot of what I've been learning in the past year.   Without the forum, I would not have been able to make near the progress that I have.  I'm not there yet, but definitely enjoying the ride. 

Chau

Just a quick question : When you work with the dough, flattening it out and make it into a skin, isn't it difficult doing it if there are many small bubbles on the surface?
I tend to try to flatten out the bigger airpockets (pinky nail size and larger) as much as I can by giving the dough a manual kneading for a short time after the machine has done its work, to avoid having those bubbles appear when I stretch out the dough. If I don't do that, the air bubbles [again..!] disturbes my work flow. 

[Jackie Tran]

Hi Chau,

I failed to explain in my previous post, sorry.
What I meant to say was, pre-heating the stone in the oven is fine, but handling it is quite difficult.
The main problems I encountered were ;

a. The stone (+ oven tray) is heavy and demands a delicate balancing or the stone is prone to slide off the oven tray when moving it from the oven to kitchen table for topping
b. When the pizza sheet is placed on the stone for topping, I have to do it very fast because the sheet starts to develop bubbles almost immediately,
c. Putting back the tray & stone into the oven is a delicate balancing act (a), with the high risk of allowing too much oven heat out because the oven door was open too long...
d. The stone itself absorbed lot of moisture which made the crust too dry (probably higher % of liquid will remedy the problem).

I agree with you though that one needs to think outside the comfort zone in order to develop!

Here's a picture of the stone I bought (sorry about the mess. some of the topping slided off the sheet during an attempt to use a different technique..it is impossible to get it off, the stone itself absorbs every juice it can get its surface on) :

N2D, thanks for clarifying about your difficulties with working with a pizza stone and for posting a picture of the stone.   Now I understand your reluctance to using your pizza stone.

Several observations:

1) Your pizza stone is wayyy too clean looking.    Often times, a pizza stone is a reflection of the pizza maker.  A "well seasoned" pizza maker should have a well seasonsed stone.  That is the stone should be dark with remnant spotches of burnt oil and cheese.   Pizza stones can be washed with warm water if you want but never wash it with soap or soapy water as it can absorb that soap.  Just use a metal dough blade to scrape off the bits of burnt flour and cheese.   So don't worry about a clean looking stone.  

2) Put that metal handle somewhere up high or far away so you can't find it.  It gives a false impression that you should be moving the stone about.  You should not.   Preheat the stone in the oven and when you are ready to bake, load the prepared pizza on a wooden peel quickly as to minimize the heat lost from the oven.   Handling a hot stone is not only not recommended but can be dangerous.  

I have welding gloves doubled up inside another pair of welding gloves for moving hot pizza stones about but again, it's not the routine or norm.  Most ppl place the stone on desire rack, heat it up, load the pizza, bake, unload the pizza using a metal peel, never moving the stone back and forth.  

For instructions on how to use a wooden peel or metal peel, you can probably fine a lot of videos on youtube for that.  

About the stone absorbing moisture is a common characteristic and usually desireable.  You don't want a stone trapping moisture under the pie but absorbing it to crisp up the skin.  The bottom of the pizza will usually soften up again once it's out of the oven and cooling off before eating.  You are right about increasing the hydration level to offset the stone absorbing moisture.  

Good luck,
Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Just a quick question : When you work with the dough, flattening it out and make it into a skin, isn't it difficult doing it if there are many small bubbles on the surface?
I tend to try to flatten out the bigger airpockets (pinky nail size and larger) as much as I can by giving the dough a manual kneading for a short time after the machine has done its work, to avoid having those bubbles appear when I stretch out the dough. If I don't do that, the air bubbles [again..!] disturbes my work flow. 

N2D, I think this depends on the end product you are trying to achieve.  For me, I want my pizza crust and crumb to be aerate with varying size holes.  These are developed from those bubbles in the skin.  So I don't purposefully pop them.  The more air bubbles I have in my dough before opening it up to form a skin, the better.   As a matter of fact, I handle and open the dough gently as to not disturb or pop any of these bubbles, especially the ones in the rim.   

The bubbles in the middle of the skin usually do not bubble through the weight of the sauce, cheese, and toppings. 

This might sound crazy to you, but kneading a dough after its been kneaded in the mixer actually helps develop gluten further and further  strengthens  the dough.  This strength (later down the road of fermentation) is actually what helps tents up those airbubbles that you don't like.   Relatively speaking, a strong dough will always proof up more than a weak dough. 

Chau

[new2dough]

N2D, thanks for clarifying about your difficulties with working with a pizza stone and for posting a picture of the stone.   Now I understand your reluctance to using your pizza stone.

Several observations:

1) Your pizza stone is wayyy too clean looking.    Often times, a pizza stone is a reflection of the pizza maker.  A "well seasoned" pizza maker should have a well seasonsed stone.  That is the stone should be dark with remnant spotches of burnt oil and cheese.   Pizza stones can be washed with warm water if you want but never wash it with soap or soapy water as it can absorb that soap.  Just use a metal dough blade to scrape off the bits of burnt flour and cheese.   So don't worry about a clean looking stone.  

2) Put that metal handle somewhere up high or far away so you can't find it.  It gives a false impression that you should be moving the stone about.  You should not.   Preheat the stone in the oven and when you are ready to bake, load the prepared pizza on a wooden peel quickly as to minimize the heat lost from the oven.   Handling a hot stone is not only not recommended but can be dangerous.  

I have welding gloves doubled up inside another pair of welding gloves for moving hot pizza stones about but again, it's not the routine or norm.  Most ppl place the stone on desire rack, heat it up, load the pizza, bake, unload the pizza using a metal peel, never moving the stone back and forth.  

For instructions on how to use a wooden peel or metal peel, you can probably fine a lot of videos on youtube for that.  

About the stone absorbing moisture is a common characteristic and usually desireable.  You don't want a stone trapping moisture under the pie but absorbing it to crisp up the skin.  The bottom of the pizza will usually soften up again once it's out of the oven and cooling off before eating.  You are right about increasing the hydration level to offset the stone absorbing moisture.  

Good luck,
Chau

Ah, now I get the picture. I never thought of using the peel to slide off the pizza directly onto the stone while it's in the oven!
How much noob am I?
It's definately worth a try, but I will have to get myself a real pizza peel or at least a bigger one than the one I'm using right now.
I never used the metal handles by the way, I just added it to the photo shoot to show the its concept. ^^

Thanks.

[Jackie Tran]

No worries N2D.  There are many many ways to make and bake pizzas.  Only some methods produce superior results but it doesn't mean the other methods are wrong. 

We are all noobs at one time and ALL the members here continually learn all the time.  No one here has their act together.   

Until you get are a real peel, you can use a big piece of stiff card board as a peel, but it looks like you have a real wooden peel already (in the picture above).  You don't absolutely need the metal peel either.  There are plenty of members that use the wooden one for double duty.   

And when you start learning how to use the wooden peel there can be a few headaches there as well.  Mainly dough sticking to the peel and mangling the pizza while trying to slide it off onto the stone.  If you can salvage the pie, you may have to bake it folded as a calzone.     When this happens you may find yourself swearing and cussing a lot.   This is all part of the process: the fustrations, the learning, progressing, and finally making a decent pizza.  What we all strive for and go through.  No easy route.   

You are doing a fine job, just keep at it.  And don't worry about the local pizza makers and their "secrets".  You won't find a more knowledgeable group of folks anywhere else and ready to help with all your pizza needs than the ppl in this forum.   

Good luck,
Chau

[new2dough]

N2D, I think this depends on the end product you are trying to achieve.  For me, I want my pizza crust and crumb to be aerate with varying size holes.  These are developed from those bubbles in the skin.  So I don't purposefully pop them.  The more air bubbles I have in my dough before opening it up to form a skin, the better.   As a matter of fact, I handle and open the dough gently as to not disturb or pop any of these bubbles, especially the ones in the rim.   

The bubbles in the middle of the skin usually do not bubble through the weight of the sauce, cheese, and toppings. 

This might sound crazy to you, but kneading a dough after its been kneaded in the mixer actually helps develop gluten further and further  strengthens  the dough.  This strength (later down the road of fermentation) is actually what helps tents up those airbubbles that you don't like.   Relatively speaking, a strong dough will always proof up more than a weak dough. 

Chau

Chau, thanks for the explanation. I also think the Italian way of making pizzas, at least to some extent, is predominant on this forum? Where the crust has many airpockets and the rim itself is more or less thready with lots of big air pockets. I love having at least some air pockets in the rim and maybe some near the rim only.  
If there are more airpockets due to the post-kneading session I do, I'd say most of them are methodically pushed into the rim area.
I assume this is the Swedish way of pizza making and only way I know. ^^
I try to form the pre-rim but not squeezing it too hard because I figure the air that is in the center of the crust will have difficulties being transported when I later gently press the dough with my fingertips

Edit: here's an easy way to make the rim with some of the air still enveloped, but it demands the dough to be fairly stiff/strong:

http://img510.imageshack.us/i/kant.gif/

[new2dough]

No worries N2D.  There are many many ways to make and bake pizzas.  Only some methods produce superior results but it doesn't mean the other methods are wrong. 

We are all noobs at one time and ALL the members here continually learn all the time.  No one here has their act together.   

Until you get are a real peel, you can use a big piece of stiff card board as a peel, but it looks like you have a real wooden peel already (in the picture above).  You don't absolutely need the metal peel either.  There are plenty of members that use the wooden one for double duty.   

And when you start learning how to use the wooden peel there can be a few headaches there as well.  Mainly dough sticking to the peel and mangling the pizza while trying to slide it off onto the stone.  If you can salvage the pie, you may have to bake it folded as a calzone.     When this happens you may find yourself swearing and cussing a lot.   This is all part of the process: the fustrations, the learning, progressing, and finally making a decent pizza.  What we all strive for and go through.  No easy route.   

You are doing a fine job, just keep at it.  And don't worry about the local pizza makers and their "secrets".  You won't find a more knowledgeable group of folks anywhere else and ready to help with all your pizza needs than the ppl in this forum.   

Good luck,
Chau

Chau,
I will take one step at a time and not give up. Further down the road, I will use the peel trick.
Thanks for the advise and all the help.

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

I know how long you have been experimenting in all your aspects of dough making.     I also think the Tartine book taught me a lot about handling high hydrations doughs, in combination with your posts.  I did work with some really high hydrations in the Sicilian thread, some up to around 84% and they needed to be plopped out of the container.  I did do stretch and folds on those doughs by the recommendations of UnConundrum (Warren), from his breading baking class at Fred’s. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10020.msg87337.html#msg87337 Warren told me at that class and afterwards how he sometimes works with really high hydration doughs.  Those doughs did come out nice and airy after experimenting.

In this thread is where I sometimes I used really high hydrations http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg89636.html#msg89636 and gave thanks to Warren for helping learn.  Warren has some videos somewhere on making dough.  I don’t know if you ever saw them or not.  Finally this is how I recently tied all this together, with all the members that have helped me, with you included. Matt and Toby also helped me along the learning trail of trying different methods.

Norma

Thanks for the links Norma.  I haven't had the pleasure of crossing paths with member Unconundrum.  Sounds like he makes some good stuff.

Chau

[norma427]

Thanks for the links Norma.  I haven't had the pleasure of crossing paths with member Unconundrum.  Sounds like he makes some good stuff.

Chau

Chau,

Member, Warren (Unconundrum) is an accomplished baker and cook.  This is Warren’s website and one page on his website. 
http://www.recipesonrails.com/    http://www.recipesonrails.com/recipes?page=2

If you are interested in looking though his pages on Warren’s website he does have formulas for his breads and recipes for his foods, if you click on show. Warren also works with high hydration doughs.

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Tonight I made one of my greatest pies yet.   I put Di Fara style toppings on one of my crusts and the result elevated me into pizza nirvana. 

I'll detail what I did here for prosperity sake. 

Formulation
100% HG (Con Agra HG bleached and bromated flour)
71% water
0.3% IDY (10hrs @ 70F)
2.5% kosher salt
2% EVOO

Method
-dissolve salt in water.  Add oil and IDY.  Dump in all of flour and hand mix in bowl for a few minutes until well mixed.
-Rest 10-15m.  Then hand knead for 1 min (yes I timed it)
-Rest for a couple of hours.  Divided and ball.  Add in a few folds while balling.  Enough so that the balls hold their shape fairly well in hand.
-Proof for 8 hours at room temps of 70F.   Initially I had planned this for a 6 hour ferment at 75F, but didn't realize my room temps had dropped to about 70F since it's winter so it took longer to proof up.
Baked in MBE for 5 min.

Results were incredible.  Crust was somewhat crusty and light on the inside.   Slightly crusty bottom.   

Di Fara style Toppings:  block and soft mozz., Pepperoni, drizzle of EVOO.   After the bake, another drizzle of EVOO, grated parm/romano/asiago, fresh basil.  A Di Fara style pie needs to be oily.  EVOO drizzled on AFTER the bake will have more flavor than before. 

Enjoy,
Chau

[Jackie Tran]

I took multiple crumb shots to show what a proper crumb should look like.  It should be aerated, soft, moist, tender, just slightly chewy - not too much. 

Chau

[widespreadpizza]

JT,  again,  nice looking pizza.  Here is my question to you for the new year.  Can you make pizza that is as good without the bromate?  Some people insist that it the level of crisp and lightness cannot be duplicated without it.  What do you think?  I am not trying to bust your balls on the bromate thing either,  Some people use it with no reservation and I respect that,  but to me artisan and bromate do not belong in the same paragraph.  Happy Holidays.  -marc

[Jackie Tran]

JT,  again,  nice looking pizza.  Here is my question to you for the new year.  Can you make pizza that is as good without the bromate?  Some people insist that it the level of crisp and lightness cannot be duplicated without it.  What do you think?  I am not trying to bust your balls on the bromate thing either,  Some people use it with no reservation and I respect that,  but to me artisan and bromate do not belong in the same paragraph.  Happy Holidays.  -marc

Thx Marc, I haven't been avoiding your question on purpose.  I sort of just forgot about it, sorry.   I just haven't had time to make this type of pie with regular bread flour since there are so many experiments I always want to do with more cropping up.  And then there is helping others on the side via PM or email.  To answer your question, yes I can make very good pies without the bromates.  I have before but have not pursued it recently b/c I still have this HG bromated flour left over and it's been making great dough.  Perhaps I will attempt to make an awesome non bromated flour pie for you for the new year.

For an example of a non bromated pie, check out the very first pie in this thread.  It may not look like much but it is to date my greatest achievement in crumb.   All others have been very very close but not exceeding.  It was made with HG bread flour bought from my local Sun flower whole foods market.  I am positive it is nonbromated. It was truely feather light.  It was and remains the ideal crumb for me.

Pie in reply #46 of this thread was made with Canadian Manitoba BF.  I believe it is non bromated as well.  It too was a really good pie.  Crust looks different b/c it was baked in the home oven ala NY style.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10826.40.html

Here are 2 pies (manitoba vs the bromated Sam's Club HG flour) baked in the MBE.  Reply #21-#22 shows the manitoba pie with an excellent crumb shot as well.  Post #23 shows the Sam's HG bromated flour pie with crumb shot.  Both had comparable oven spring and  crust and crumb.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11476.20.html

I have also made some very excellent pies with just caputo 00 (non bromated version). 
reply #107 shows a very open and airy crumb for caputo 00 flour.   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.100.html

Here is another caputo pie with better leoparding and a grade A crumb.  Reply #281
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11126.280.html

I believe it really would take just a bit of time tweaking and dialing in the correct hydration ratio, kneading time, and fermentation time to get the very best crust and crumb from any flour whether it be bromated or not.  I am a firm believer that with true understanding of the ingredients and dough process, one can create consistent products despite using different types and strengths of flours.  Again, perhaps after the new year, I will try my hand at non bromated flours again. 

Just out of curiosity, what is your favorite non bromated flour?  If it's something that I can not get locally would you be interested in sending me a little to experiment with?  I can post the results for comparison.

Cheers,
Chau 

[foolishpoolish]

Chau,
Those are some amazing looking pies (and their colors are somewhat festive too imo! )
 So glad that your quest for the "perfect" pie has allowed you to share all this pizza awesomeness with us. Long may it continue!
Merry Christmas

Cheers,
T

[TXCraig1]

Class A pie there Chau. Looks about as tasty as it gets. I love a greasy pie.

Merry Christmas!

Craig

[Jackie Tran]

Thank you Toby and Craig for the kind remarks.  I work hard for them.      Kidding aside, Toby good to have you back.  I hope you stay awhile.   

I admire both of your work Toby and Craig.   Merry Christmas to all!

Chau

[fazzari]

Chau
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful pizzas.....I have a question in regards to your process...I'm always looking to simplify if possible.  If you had mixed your dough maybe 2 or 3 minutes after the rest instead of the 1 minute you actually mixed it...and then scaled and balled, could you have eliminated the folding and scaling and balling of the dough later in the process??  I'm just wondering if you might have obtained the same results, with a little less effort....I know I'm lazy!!!  Great job!
John