Author Topic: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie  (Read 29891 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #140 on: December 26, 2010, 05:06:31 PM »
Chau
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful pizzas.....I have a question in regards to your process...I'm always looking to simplify if possible.  If you had mixed your dough maybe 2 or 3 minutes after the rest instead of the 1 minute you actually mixed it...and then scaled and balled, could you have eliminated the folding and scaling and balling of the dough later in the process??  I'm just wondering if you might have obtained the same results, with a little less effort....I know I'm lazy!!!  Great job!
John

John, thanks for the compliment.  I always say I work hard for them.   :-D  To answer your question - absolutely yes.  I don't always do the folds.  I just find it easier for me to underknead and then make up the strength later by doing folds.  But if you can knead the dough to the right place each time, then I would not do any folds, but simply just ball it up quickly.   There is not just one way of making pizza.  As a matter of fact, it's hard to say this or that is my technique b/c it changes so often.  Things are done depending on how the dough feels at a particular moment.  I may sometimes decide to do folds or not do folds, depending on how the dough feels, how much gluten is developed already.  If I change the hydration ratio, or the flour used, or how long the dough has fermented, or if I'm using a starter, or....then it all changes the way the dough feels.   And by the way, I don't always get it right either.  Sometimes, I over or under estimate a certain variable.   The perfect pizza comes from the perfect dough and perfect bake.   The perfect dough comes from a balance of hydration, gluten development (affected by kneading, folding, oil, salt, etc), & fermentation. 

Basically I think to myself...how do I make a dough that will bake in 4-5m, fluff up, not be too chewy, not be too wet, not too dry, and still get a nice and crispy skin.   I think...what type of flour do I need to use?  how wet should the dough be? how much kneading vs folding?, how long to ferment, how much should I proof the dough up?  how gentle should I handle the dough?  Does it make a difference? Do I need oil?  What does it do or not do?  If I change the flour or hydration, add oil or not, then how much kneading do I need or not to get the same dough each time.   The is the funnest and hardest part about making dough. 

I have learned a lot about what good dough should look like from watching videos of the pros.  Look at how the dough looks in the mixer, look at how it proofs up, look at how it handles when stretched out, etc.  If you can get the dough nice and balanced and then bake it properly, then we have great pizza. 

Anyways, yes as a pizza maker you HAVE to understand these things and make necessary and purposeful changes to make good pizza.  There is not one way,  there is never one way b/c dough changes daily.  To get a consistent product, we must adapt and tweak things all the time.   A great pizza is hard to come by.  If we can make friends with it and find ourselves in good company, then we are fortunate.    ;D

Chau
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 05:36:05 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline fazzari

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #141 on: December 26, 2010, 07:56:29 PM »

Chau
Thanks for an excellent reply...and it goes to show one of the main advantages a home baker has to the retail pizza guy.  While the home baker can monitor and develop small batches of dough, and even pick the perfect time to bake...the pro baker has to monitor large numbers of doughs (mixed from different bags of flour), and have them ready to go on a second's notice from the public demand for product.  Not an easy task...   Thanks for your reply....and for the nice photos!!

John

Offline jever4321

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #142 on: December 27, 2010, 10:29:08 AM »
Chau, You pizza looks awesome. Seriously man that's art on a plate. Your pictures are always top notch as well, I can't get enough of 'em.
Makes me wish we were neighbors.  ;D We would probably gain a few lbs.
-Jay

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #143 on: December 28, 2010, 05:42:37 AM »
Chau
Thanks for an excellent reply...and it goes to show one of the main advantages a home baker has to the retail pizza guy.  While the home baker can monitor and develop small batches of dough, and even pick the perfect time to bake...the pro baker has to monitor large numbers of doughs (mixed from different bags of flour), and have them ready to go on a second's notice from the public demand for product.  Not an easy task...   Thanks for your reply....and for the nice photos!!

John

Great point John.  The one time I got to speak with Chris Bianco this summer, he said you can make a better pie in the home setting because you can take your time to get things just right.  I agree with you that the professional can be confined by those particular circumstances.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #144 on: December 28, 2010, 05:44:06 AM »
Chau, You pizza looks awesome. Seriously man that's art on a plate. Your pictures are always top notch as well, I can't get enough of 'em.
Makes me wish we were neighbors.  ;D We would probably gain a few lbs.

You're too kind Jever.  I'll keep at it for both of us.
Chau

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #145 on: February 19, 2011, 10:11:38 AM »
I am sure his pizzas are good, but  people are not buying them just for their flavor, they are buying them for something else.

I am late going though this thread, but I have to disagree whole heartedly.

First, I agree with you that some people are buying them because of the hype surrounding Mangieri's pizzas. Some are buying them for the "cool factor" of being able to say they went to UPN or for any number of reasons. Who cares?

I do not think a pizza business is going to be able to last long-term if those are the only reasons people visit a pizzeria.

TScar, what's your beef?

I for one can certainly see why some people may not even like Mangieri's pizzas, even if they were priced at $8 per pizza.

But you are missing a meaningful segment of Mangieri's success.....that is regular patrons are willing to pay $20 for his pizzas over and over.

I went to UPN for the first time a few years back because I was already in NYC. I was taken aback at the $21 per pizza price, but bought a Margherita to give it a fair shot. I ended up buying a Bianca and a Marinara after that the same evening. After that fist trip there was a reason that I have driven, 3.5 hours each way, to NYC only to visit UPN, eat pizzas, and turn back immediately for home. Night sweats of thinking about how good those pizzas tasted.

Whether or not they are the greatest pizzas ever made is irrelevant. Are they expensive? Very much so. Does the price itself make the pizza good? Definitely not.

That being said, Mangieri makes some of the very best pizza I have ever tasted. And subsequent visits to UPN after my initial forray and talking with other patrons revealed many regulars who repeatedly paid those steep prices for a reason. --k
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 12:54:14 PM by pizzablogger »
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline doodneyy

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #146 on: March 26, 2011, 02:46:57 AM »
You want the "Perfect"?  Here it is... & by the way your fold tech is the way to go..
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 03:04:31 AM by doodneyy »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #147 on: March 26, 2011, 08:31:51 AM »
Doodneyy, nice job!  ;D  That looks like a great crust & crumb provided it wasn't too dry, but it doesn't look like it.  Are you able to make this type of pizza consistently or is this just hit or miss?

Chau

Offline doodneyy

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #148 on: March 26, 2011, 11:25:53 AM »
Doodneyy, nice job!  ;D  That looks like a great crust & crumb provided it wasn't too dry, but it doesn't look like it.  Are you able to make this type of pizza consistently or is this just hit or miss?

Chau
Not dry at all.  I am able to now replicate this 80% of the time.
My main factors have been the length of time I am able to leave the dough out before I have to feed everyone & the weather. 
I live in Seattle & well ya know it's wet & windy here that effects the wfo.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #149 on: March 26, 2011, 12:04:51 PM »
Not dry at all.  I am able to now replicate this 80% of the time.
My main factors have been the length of time I am able to leave the dough out before I have to feed everyone & the weather. 
I live in Seattle & well ya know it's wet & windy here that effects the wfo.

Dooneyy, not sure how long you've been lurking for or just joined, but either way welcome.  I (along with others I'm sure) would love to see a picture of your WFO/ODK setup and the formula and recipe you used to make your pies.  I'm always curious to know what others are doing to see if I can learn something new.  I truely believe that all members have something valuable to offer however great or little it may be.  It helps everyone when there is more info AND pics posted.    ;)  I think you need 5 posts or something like that to post pics.  Do let us know if you have any problems posting pics.

Chau


Offline doodneyy

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2011, 03:15:54 AM »
Dooneyy, not sure how long you've been lurking for or just joined, but either way welcome.  I (along with others I'm sure) would love to see a picture of your WFO/ODK setup and the formula and recipe you used to make your pies.  I'm always curious to know what others are doing to see if I can learn something new.  I truely believe that all members have something valuable to offer however great or little it may be.  It helps everyone when there is more info AND pics posted.    ;)  I think you need 5 posts or something like that to post pics.  Do let us know if you have any problems posting pics.

Chau
Thank you.
Haven't been lurking..Just joined the group!
I was looking for some insight on how to manage the oxidation of the dough after it is set out on the counter.
That lead me to the article on you  :D "chau-tran-the-balanced-approach-to-pizza-making"
I doubt you can learn anything from me.  
Looks like you have things under serious control.
Where should I post photos & which kind (dough prep, foldout, finished pizzas)

m.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #151 on: March 27, 2011, 11:36:20 AM »
Dooneyy, it sounds like you have been making pizza for awhile.  Any idea how long you've been at it or about how many pies you've made?  If you can do that 80% of the time, I'd say that's pretty dang good.  

You can post pics anywhere that is appropriate.   Scan down and pick out a forum that matches what you want to post pics about...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php

If it's in the wrong forum or sub-forum the mods can move it but they are busy enough as is so we don't want to create extra work for them.  If you want to show off your ODK/WFO then you can post it in the "pizza making equipment" forum and then in the "pizza ovens" sub forum.  

If you took notes, maybe you can detail your recipe and method for the above pie here.  I'd like to take a look at it.  

Also I am in the process of building an ODK and WFO.  I'm sure you could teach me a lot there.  We are all here to learn from one another and last I check no one here had it ALL together.  

Looking forward to your posts.

Chau

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #152 on: March 27, 2011, 12:17:39 PM »
Just happened to bump into this thread and had to say that you guys are putting out some great pies. doodneyy, welcome to the party and good to see chau (T-man) still in action.I totally agree that ever pie is different and that's why I frown on people's desire to always want a "recipe". The same "recipe" in different hands results in a different end product. Doughs are as variable as the weather and technique always trumps "recipes". I've been unable to make any pies lately as I'm in the process of relocating in a new home, so I appreciate sharing the enthusiasm you all have. I can't wait to fire up an oven again and throw a home made pie the heat box. Save a slice for me would you! ;D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2011, 01:00:51 PM »
Dave,

I know where you are coming from but a recipe does get people on the playing field. From that point on, it is up to the player to perform. A couple of good recent examples of what I am talking about can be seen in the series of posts starting at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13080.msg128439.html#msg128439 and, more recently, in the series of posts starting at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12806.msg132091.html#msg132091. Would Andre and Jet attempted their respective pizzas without a recipe? Quite possibly, but maybe not. Or they might have taken their own, but different, course. But, in both cases, the results (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13080.msg130280.html#msg130280 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12806.msg132648.html#msg132648) speak for themselves.

Peter

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2011, 01:39:43 PM »
Great point Pete. I'm just saying, don't depend  on "recipes" as a crutch. Learn and you can develop your own "recipes". After all, if one was "the best", we wouldn't need all the rest! ::)

Offline doodneyy

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #155 on: March 31, 2011, 12:36:00 PM »
I have been at it for years but just the past 1.5 in the wfo.
Recently I am making 12-20 pies a week...yes I am on the Pizza diet!
I have posted a series of photos below that document the pizza I just made this weekend.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 02:22:03 AM by doodneyy »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #156 on: March 31, 2011, 12:53:16 PM »
Doodneyy, your dough looks fantastic.  Very soft and strong.  What flour are you using there and how long are you mixing for?

Offline doodneyy

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #157 on: March 31, 2011, 12:59:01 PM »
Doodneyy, your dough looks fantastic.  Very soft and strong.  What flour are you using there and how long are you mixing for?
Is it appropriate to post so many pics in an individual post?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #158 on: March 31, 2011, 01:43:01 PM »
Is it appropriate to post so many pics in an individual post?

Yes! :) I post as many as I can get away with. ;)

Offline doodneyy

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #159 on: April 01, 2011, 02:47:17 AM »
Yes! :) I post as many as I can get away with. ;)
856gr flour
440gr h2o
30gr h2o (100-110 degrees)
3/4 ts IDY added to the above (30 gr h2o)
290gr Starter of your choice
I know it is wackkoo but after months of writing down 40 different variations & cooking 40 different doughs this
one worked all the time.
Most people like round #'s but ...hey...that is why they invented digital scales to 1 gm.

m.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 03:07:58 AM by doodneyy »


 

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