Author Topic: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)  (Read 10424 times)

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scott123

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2010, 04:23:24 PM »
Regarding gentle hand mixing- it really depends on the flour.  My bromated all trumps sucks up water so fast that if I don't get the whole thing mixed and onto my bench for kneading in a matter of seconds, I get dry lumps through the dough. I'm looking forward to a slightly lower protein flour so that I can get a little more window to work with.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2010, 05:12:21 PM »
Scott are you into mixing flours to decrease the protein content?  I agree about some flours drinking up the water while others like caputo doesn't seem to take it up at all.  This is why I like to add 50-60% of the flour to the water and stir to mix it well before I add more flour. I almost never add all the flour and end up with a higher hydration than initially intended.

Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2010, 09:18:07 PM »
i made 3 pizzas tonight and they all turned out bad. the whole wheat one was over fermented. apparently properly hydrating the yeast caused it to rise too much. this made it hard to stretch and it came out too thick in certain areas. the recipe worked much better when i didn't know how to hydrate yeast, lol.

as for the other two with the organic bread flour, the crusts were both crispy rather than leathery like NY style. i didn't notice much difference between the one with VWG and the one without, but that could be because i baked them different times. i am not sure where to go from here, except to keep trying.

i also got my order from pennmac, the grande cheese and some stanislaus tomatoes. i like the grande cheese, it is incredibly rubbery but i don't really mind that.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2010, 12:36:07 AM »
i made 3 pizzas tonight and they all turned out bad. the whole wheat one was over fermented. apparently properly hydrating the yeast caused it to rise too much. this made it hard to stretch and it came out too thick in certain areas. the recipe worked much better when i didn't know how to hydrate yeast, lol.

as for the other two with the organic bread flour, the crusts were both crispy rather than leathery like NY style. i didn't notice much difference between the one with VWG and the one without, but that could be because i baked them different times. i am not sure where to go from here, except to keep trying.

i also got my order from pennmac, the grande cheese and some stanislaus tomatoes. i like the grande cheese, it is incredibly rubbery but i don't really mind that.

hey sorry to hear you had a bad pizza night.  I've had many of those. lol.  Like I said, if the yeast is too much just cut in in half or whatever you think is appropriate and try again.  You don't realize it but it's through these screw ups that you learn how to use yeast instead of following some recipe.   Keep in mind, the goal is to work away from the recipes.   Once you can do that, you'll have more freedom.

I didn't panic tonight when I had to work late unexpectedly and couldn't bake pizza as I had planned.  I knew that my dough would go another day in the fridge.  If you know approximately how much yeast will get how many days, you can start varying the amounts to suit your needs. 

I'm getting to a place where I can vary the room temp, cold ferment,  warm proof time base on the amount of yeast or starter to bake when I need to bake instead of waiting for the dough to be ready. 

Good luck and post some more pics. 

The crispy pizza sounds good to me.  :)

Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2010, 11:15:52 PM »
made some more pies. here's are the results:

http://i48.tinypic.com/29qlb2s.jpg

that's my first sourdough pizza, also is 100% whole wheat. as you can see, i did not get much rise. this could be because i only refrigerated it 12 hours when i was supposed to for at least 24. i wanted to eat it today though, and couldn't wait. will have to try this again and perhaps with more starter. also, i could not stretch this dough without it tearing. not sure why, since i used vital wheat gluten. could it have something to do with the starter and it having not risen enough?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2evvj15.jpg

that's another attempt at NY style, with organic bread flour, 61% hydration. the crust came out crispy again though and not chewy or leathery. also, not much flavor to the crust. this pizza, like all my previous ones, seemed to have almost zero oregano flavor despite the fact that i put tons of oregano on it. hope to solve that issue with thezaman's oregano. also, i apologize for the blurriness. some pizza grease got on my camera lens.

http://i45.tinypic.com/33e38rc.jpg

this is a pizza i made with the king arthur sir lancelot flour, 64% hydration (which was too much). i did this to make sure it wasn't the flour i was using that was causing my problems with the crust. if you remember, after i switched the unenriched flour is when my crusts went downhill. however, i had pretty much the same issues with my crust using the sir lancelot flour as with the organic bread flour, so this makes me think maybe the flour isn't the problem. my most new yorky tasting crusts were actually achieved before i got the baking stone, do you think the stone is causing the crispiness and bready flavor and if so, how can i get around that?

http://i46.tinypic.com/1z5t5ow.jpg

that's the bottom crust of a piece of my sir lancelot pie.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2dijb6f.jpg

side view.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 11:22:13 PM by Pizzalogy »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2010, 11:58:19 PM »
Perhaps you are doing something that I'm doing, which is experimenting with too many factors/variables at one time.    This can really muddy up the waters and making  it even harder than it has to be.  Whether you have successes or failures, it's not always clear which factors played a role in which. 

I would suggest sticking to one recipe or type of pizza until you can do it well.  Then change one or 2 factors at a time and see how that affects your standard or base pie and make adjustments accordingly.

It's tough to start working on a wheat pizza if you don't have a good basic pizza to begin with.  Also it's even harder to start mixing in VWG if you don't have the basics down.  You need more practice and it sounds like you've been doing a lot of that.  With more practice WILL come more understanding and things will start to gel and make more sense.  Right now you are a little lost b/c you're still new and that's ok.  Go back to the basic NY pie.  Once you get that down, then slowly replace the flour with a little wheat flour at a time.  Forget the VWG for now. 

when I tell you it's ok to experiment, it still has to be done within reason.  I don't mean to try out a new recipe every time you bake or every other day.  That might be ok if you've made a 100 of the same pies or so, but not now.  Experiment with small changes at a time. 

Also you are having trouble with the stone b/c it's new to you and gives a different baking characteristic.  It should give you a better result, especially with more practice.  You really need to just try and figure things out.  I know that's easy to say and doesn't really answer your questions but I alone don't have all the answers to your questions.  You are fustrated so it would be easy to want to go back to doing things the old way.  At least then it would give you a bit of confidence again.  I say don't do it.  Work with the stone and make it work for you.  You have what it takes to figure it out.  Trial and error.
It's impossible for me to help you more specifically as I don't have intimate knowledge of the type of oven and type of stone you have.  If I were there with you, the best I could say is try this or that.  That's basically what I do in my kitchen. 

What you experienced with your first few pies can be credited to beginners luck.  We all have it from time to time so enjoy any good pizzas you make.  My best pie I made was back when I didn't really know wha I was doing.  I'm still chasing that one down. 

Just remember, making pies ain't easy!  Keep your chin up, I'm rooting for ya. 

scott123

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2010, 12:14:29 AM »
Oregano- pulverize it with the heal of your hand and add it to the sauce- at least 2 hours before you bake the pie.  If you give it some time to hydrate, you'll taste it.

The bran in whole wheat cuts into the gluten and decreases volume.  Although I haven't run across too many successful ww pizza attempts, I'm sure it can be done. As Tranman suggested, though, ww is advanced pizza making and probably should be approached after you master non ww pies.

Breadiness is usually a result of greater thickness factors and long baking times.  How long are you baking the pizzas?

Flavor=extended cold fermentation.  Dial back the yeast, make the dough, and leave it in the fridge for 3 days.

The KASL 64% looks a little bready, but it doesn't appear crispy.  Was it crispy?

Could you cut and paste your current recipe? That could be where the breadiness is coming from.

Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2010, 02:37:27 AM »
thanks guys.

Quote
The bran in whole wheat cuts into the gluten and decreases volume.  Although I haven't run across too many successful ww pizza attempts, I'm sure it can be done. As Tranman suggested, though, ww is advanced pizza making and probably should be approached after you master non ww pies.

just to be clear, i've made 100% whole wheat pies already that i had no problems stretching (could stretch them too thin even) using vital wheat gluten and active dry yeast, you can see one here: http://i39.tinypic.com/2mww7wz.jpg i posted that in the specialty grain forum also. this last one though that failed to stretch, was my first sourdough attempt, so it's no surprise it didn't come out well. i realize that i'm just a beginner and probably shouldn't be attempting 100% whole wheat sourdough pies right now but my starter that i originally made to use with bread just happened to be at it's peak activity stage at the time i was making that pizza and i simply could not resist trying it. i was not at all surprised it didn't rise, but i was just wondering if that was the reason it didn't stretch. i am not sure the relationship between rising and stretching.

but anyway, back to the basics.  i do want to go back and work with the organic white flour and see if i can get the crust to be like new york style with the stone.

i am baking these pizzas 8-9 minutes and the rim tastes bready and feels firm even if it hasn't browned much. and yes the KASL was crispy to a degree. basically the crust of my pizzas comes out firm and breakable, so you can pick up the pizza like a frisbee. i don't think it should be like that. when you slice it though, the individual pieces are foldible, because only the bottom of the crust is crispy.

here's the recipe i used (for one dough ball):

flour - 100% - 182 g
water - 61% - 111 g
ADY - .5% - .25 tsp
salt - 2.3% - .75 tsp
oil - 1.2% - .5 tsp

the KASL is the same recipe except 64% hydration, but next time i will be decreasing the hydration with the KASL because the dough was too wet and stuck to everything. i will be increasing the hydration a little bit with the organic bread flour, because it was too dry. interestingly, despite the KASL being to wet and the bread flour being to dry, i did not notice a ton of difference between the two crusts when baked. does that make sense? what are general effects of too much and too little hydration?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 02:46:24 AM by Pizzalogy »

scott123

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2010, 05:38:39 AM »
Here's some thoughts.

Baking Time

The oven spring from a super hot stone is critical to the airy chewy texture of a NY style pizza.  That 8-9 minutes- we have to shorten that.  How hot does your oven go?  How long are you pre-heating the stone?

Thickness Factor

Besides being a little dense, I think the texture of your pizzas would improve if the crust was a little bit thinner.  Are your pizzas close to filling your entire stone? If so, I'd play around with decreasing the ingredients by 10% while still stretching it to the same size. Stretching dough thin and evenly is no easy task.  Flour is pretty cheap as is yeast (in the quantities we use it), so you might want to double your recipe and have an extra skin (or two) on hand in case you mess up or just want a little extra practice.

Oil

Although there isn't much oil in your crusts, in the pictures, the crust looks a little oily- both top and bottom. Are you forming the skin using oil or with flour? 

Proofing

A big part of oven spring is a dough that's proofed long enough to have plenty of bubbles before forming- and formed in such a way so that many of the bubbles in the rim are still intact.  This generally translates into not pinching/pressing the outer rim during forming. It also means that you've used enough yeast so that the dough has approximately doubled in the fridge and, by the time it's warmed up, it's tripled (or even quadrupled). Another important aspect to keeping the bubbles in the dough is using a container, that, after being lightly oiled, will release the dough easily after being warmed up.  If you have to mangle the dough to get it out of the container, you lose a lot of the bubbly goodness.

Hydration

Puffy airy crusts are a result of high heat and elevated hydration. The water creates steam, which, in turn, drives the crust up.  After the pie is baked, residual water softens the crust and makes it floppier. KA bread flour used to be incredibly sticky and unmanageable for me, so I stopped using it.  I've never worked with KASL, though. Just to clarify, though- dough should be tacky and require plenty of flour to work with comfortably.  If you flour a dough ball and leave it on the counter for a couple of minutes, it should stick.  If you leave it on the peel for a couple of minutes- same deal. It should be a little difficult to handle/require fairly constant flouring, but not be impossible to handle.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:41:31 AM by scott123 »


Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 12:48:44 PM »



Here's some thoughts.

Baking Time

The oven spring from a super hot stone is critical to the airy chewy texture of a NY style pizza.  That 8-9 minutes- we have to shorten that.  How hot does your oven go?  How long are you pre-heating the stone?

it either goes to 500 or 550. the numbers on the dial go to 500 but you can turn it more than that, im not sure if thatís just turning on the broiler though, or actually making the oven hotter. i usually preheat the stone for at least 1 hour. what do you suggest as a target baking time? i can bake one at that time and see what the result is as an experiment.

Quote
Besides being a little dense, I think the texture of your pizzas would improve if the crust was a little bit thinner.  Are your pizzas close to filling your entire stone? If so, I'd play around with decreasing the ingredients by 10% while still stretching it to the same size. Stretching dough thin and evenly is no easy task.  Flour is pretty cheap as is yeast (in the quantities we use it), so you might want to double your recipe and have an extra skin (or two) on hand in case you mess up or just want a little extra practice.

they are not close to filling the stone, itís 15.5 inches and my pizzas are 12-14 inches. i was trying to make them thicker though, because in the past when I made them too thin I got cracker crusts.

Quote
Although there isn't much oil in your crusts, in the pictures, the crust looks a little oily- both top and bottom. Are you forming the skin using oil or with flour? 

flour.

Quote
A big part of oven spring is a dough that's proofed long enough to have plenty of bubbles before forming- and formed in such a way so that many of the bubbles in the rim are still intact.  This generally translates into not pinching/pressing the outer rim during forming. It also means that you've used enough yeast so that the dough has approximately doubled in the fridge and, by the time it's warmed up, it's tripled (or even quadrupled). Another important aspect to keeping the bubbles in the dough is using a container, that, after being lightly oiled, will release the dough easily after being warmed up.  If you have to mangle the dough to get it out of the container, you lose a lot of the bubbly goodness.

I did not know that. I was pressing the outer rim.

scott123

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2010, 09:30:08 PM »
Could you shoot a shot of your oven dial? I think it's similar to mine, but I want to make sure. If it is similar to mine, you want to set it to the notch right next to broil (possibly 600 but unmarked) and make sure that the bottom element turns on. I would also preheat your fibrament 90 minutes as opposed to 60.  As has been discussed elsewhere, fibrament's lower conductivity might require a longer preheat. Maybe- it might not make a difference, but it's worth a shot.

A thicker crust will help prevent crispiness/crackeriness, but, because of the abundance of dough, the crust takes longer to heat up, oven spring is lost, and you end up with something dense/bready. If you want to fight crackeriness/denseness, minimal skin thickness, water and high heat are key.

I would take your organic flour, scale back your recipe 12%, bump up the water to 70% and stretch it to 14".  Well, at least try stretching it to 14".  There's a really good chance you might fail at that hydration. Even if you do fail, though, I promise you that the experience will not be for naught.  Imo, there's nothing better for mastering skin opening than struggling with sticky, fragile, almost impossible to open doughs. Think of it as a wax on wax off kind of thing  ;D

I'm sure you've seen this video, but watch it a few times more to get a better sense of skin forming.



You'll notice he doesn't press the rim and he focuses more on stretching the outer circumference of the skin as opposed to the middle. Ignore the rolling pin stuff.

Lastly, there's one other way to cut your bake times and keep more residual water in the crust- sugar.  Sugar will help the outside of the crust brown a little faster.  The sooner it comes out of the oven, the more moisture that's left in the center of the dough. There's two forms of sugar you want to add- as an ingredient (1% is a good starting point) and process encouraged.  Not everyone agrees with this, but my experience has shown me that when you dial back the yeast a bit and extend the cold fermentation, enzyme activity produces more residual sugar in the dough- so a three day less yeast cold ferment will have more residual sugar than a one day more yeast version. It will also, as it's well known, have more flavor/character. I can't tell you how exactly much yeast to use- there's two many variables.  You should use enough yeast so that the dough doubles by the third day and has a lot of bubbles visible (in a clear container). It should have an alcohol smell, but not an overpowering alcohol smell.

Speaking of learning from failing- there's nothing more valuable to learning how to work with yeast than making a batch of dough and leaving it in the fridge for too long.  Understanding the signs or overfermentation are just as important as recognizing underfermentation.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2010, 09:54:07 PM »
Nice video post Scot.  I've seen it before and have often wonder....

1) what do you think the hydration rate is that allows him to man handle the dough like that

2) do you think that is their everyday dough that they actually bake with.  I am assuming it is.


Tran
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 10:58:19 PM by Tranman »

scott123

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2010, 10:19:30 PM »
1) Honestly, it really depends on the flour. The more protein in the flour the more water it can hold without acting wet or sticky.

2) That's a really tough call. Although Tony Gemignani is a world renowned pizza throwing champion, he's also a pizzeria owner.  As a thrower, I'd think he want to work with what he's most comfortable with- a high salt acrobatic dough.  As a pizzeria owner, though, I would think he'd just grab one of the dough balls from that day's run. That specific dough looks quite a bit more smooth/extensible than the norm, so it could be high salt, but I'm leaning towards edible.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2010, 10:43:54 AM »
Nice video post Scot.  I've seen it before and have often wonder....

1) what do you think the hydration rate is that allows him to man handle the dough like that

2) do you think that is their everyday dough that they actually bake with.  I am assuming it is.

Tran,

For an example of typical hydration of a Tony G dough, you might take a look at Reply 14 (by Tony G himself) and my Reply 15, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8032.msg74616.html#msg74616. I never did learn whether the oil was by weight or by volume, but if by volume, 20 ounces of vegetable oil would weigh around 19.22 ounces. For olive oil, it would be about 19.06 ounces.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2010, 11:27:25 AM »
Thanks Peter.  At 58% hydration and lots of kneading (perhaps) it does seem to fit the picture.   I wonder though if you can still get a light crumb out of it.  It must be the effects of the oil. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2010, 11:37:40 AM »
At 58% hydration and lots of kneading (perhaps) it does seem to fit the picture.   I wonder though if you can still get a light crumb out of it.  It must be the effects of the oil. 


Tran,

I think the lightness is more of a function of the amount of yeast, the type of flour (including whether it is bromated or not) and hydration, the fermentation and the capacity to retain gases and moisture, and conditions that encourage good oven spring. While oil in the dough helps retain moisture and create some softness in the finished crumb, you aren't going to get a lot of that with about 1% oil.

Peter

Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2010, 01:53:37 AM »
ok so i made a couple more pizzas. one yesterday, which i stretched too thin and ended up with a cracker crust despite not baking it that long. the crust even smelled like a cracker. that dough was made with bob's red mill organic bread flour at 62% hydration. the dough flopped over the edge of the stone a bit when cooking.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ypisrt.jpg

 i tried again today, this time with 64% hydration (i made these dough balls before you suggested i try 70%). this time i baked it for 5.5 minutes and took it out even though i didn't think it was done. this was a definite improvement. the crust was not crackery and it was much closer to pizza crust than bread unlike my recent pizzas.

http://i45.tinypic.com/23u4p7b.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/33ubuck.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/v5bckg.jpg

this pizza was not like a frisbee. it actually drooped when you picked up the side like a pizza should. but as you can see, the bottom crust is barely browned, mostly white on the bottom. doesn't this mean i have to bake it longer? although i'm afraid that will result in crackeriness with a crust this thin. do you think i should still try the 70% hydration? this dough was rather difficult at 64%.

here is a picture of the bottom crust of the  first pizza i made after finding this website: http://i46.tinypic.com/24v39zd.jpg

that was before i had the stone and pre-baking the crust on a pan. obviously, it's far from perfect but look at how much more browning there is and it wasn't bready or crackery even though the total bake time was long. i don't want to go back to pre-baking or using a pan, i want to learn to use the stone, but it has not been easy so far.

http://i47.tinypic.com/kbx1f4.jpg

there's the oven dial.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 01:58:17 AM by Pizzalogy »


Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2010, 06:53:20 PM »
i made another pizza today, very similarly to how i made yesterday's. but for some reason, the crust browned this time. why is this? this dough had one extra day in the fridge, 3 instead of 2. could that have something to do with it? the pizza actually came out pretty well.

http://i46.tinypic.com/dg3vhe.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/1ghglh.jpg

the crust was chewy, although i would say it still had more bready flavor than i would like. bake time was 6 minutes and i actually used a bit more cheese. still doesn't taste anywhere near as good as NY pizza but i will try to tweak the sauce, work on the oregano flavor and get the crust tasting less bready. it seems incredibly difficult to make a pizza that tastes like real new york pizza at home. has anyone had success?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2010, 12:01:24 AM »
Tran,

For an example of typical hydration of a Tony G dough, you might take a look at Reply 14 (by Tony G himself) and my Reply 15, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8032.msg74616.html#msg74616. I never did learn whether the oil was by weight or by volume, but if by volume, 20 ounces of vegetable oil would weigh around 19.22 ounces. For olive oil, it would be about 19.06 ounces.

Peter

Peter, I'm only assuming that if that is indeed their everyday dough that it is soft and tender as they are a professional pizzeria.  I can make a dough that handles like that in the video anyday but I guarantee you it wouldn't taste any good.  it would be too leatherly and tough.  So I'm at a lost at how they can do it. ???

Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2010, 12:27:44 AM »
Tran,

For an example of typical hydration of a Tony G dough, you might take a look at Reply 14 (by Tony G himself) and my Reply 15, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8032.msg74616.html#msg74616. I never did learn whether the oil was by weight or by volume, but if by volume, 20 ounces of vegetable oil would weigh around 19.22 ounces. For olive oil, it would be about 19.06 ounces.

Peter

It was by volume, or he would not have said a 20 oz cup. If it was by weight, he simply would've said 20 oz.

scott123

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2010, 02:06:09 AM »
it seems incredibly difficult to make a pizza that tastes like real new york pizza at home. has anyone had success?

It depends on how you define 'success' ;)  This is probably going to get me in trouble, but there's lots of people who eat quasi-NY pizza outside of the NY metro area, enjoy it, and then, in turn, duplicate that at home. It's not really high heat, short baking time puffy chewy non bready NY pizza, though.   There is a small group of people, though, that either live here or have lived here (or have visited extensively), that know and understand pizza bliss and have successfully recreated that bliss in a home oven.  It's not a large number, though.  And none of them have your dietary restrictions  :(

I'm sorry to say it, but you've kind of handicapped yourself on two fronts.  Equipment and ingredients.  I've become a lot more vocal about fibrament's inadequacies due to the growing number of people with experiences such as yours. It just doesn't quite have enough conductivity for quick bake times.  Other the the stone, your dietary restrictions are the second half of a one two punch.  I sincerely believe that if you had either a better stone or a willingness to work with purported less healthy flour, your chances would improve tremendously. If you could work with both a better stone (1" cordierite or soapstone) AND All Trumps bleached bromated (enriched) flour, with your current level of knowledge/dough handling skills, the pizza of your youth would be a piece of cake.  You could do it in your sleep.  Which makes your current predicament a little frustrating.

Frustrating, but not necessarily insurmountable.

Caputo flour is unmalted, and that works fine for 850 deg wood fired ovens.  Unmalted flour, such as the Bob's Red Mill Organic flour you're using, does not work well in lower heat situations, though.  Without the enzymes in the malt, less sugars are generated, which, in turn, stunts yeast growth and coloring. For NY pizza, you need both.

I know artificially derived vitamins are off  your list, but what's your feelings on malted barley flour?  Ideally, you could find a malted unenriched bread flour, but I don't think such a thing exists. It's either all the additives or nothing. Bob's Red Mill sells malted barley flour, so you could add it yourself- if you were willing to use it.  Malted barley flour would improve your crusts dramatically.

Sugar, although not normally absolutely necessary, becomes a necessity when you've got an impaired stone.  What's your feelings on agave nectar?  That should give you browning, and, unlike honey or fruit juice, has a fairly neutral taste. Agave is rich in inulin which is a probiotic and relatively healthy.  Also, what about fructose? Does your diet allow that? Fructose has been rumored to be attached to a few health issues, so I wouldn't use it to make desserts on a daily basis, but a little bit once in a while in pizza may not be the end of the world. And, for what it's worth, it's low glycemic.  Fructose browns faster than any other type of sugar so you wouldn't need much.

I recommended 70% hydration because I want you to have experience working with a dough that was too hydrated. I guess if 64% is troublesome, maybe 70% might be a little too much, but I want you to keep increasing the water until it's absolutely impossible to work with and then dial it back a tiny bit. Next time, try 67%

That's the ingredient front.  I think you're at a point now where the time might be right for pushing your fibrament with a little careful broiling.  You've been doing the 90 minute preheat, right?  I don't think it's making much of a difference, so dial it back to 60. Put the stone on the top rack of your oven (making sure you have enough room to work with). After the 60 minute preheat at maximum temp, crack open the door and put the broiler on for... 5 minutes.  Try another pie with 10. Bear in mind, there may be a small chance this may crack your stone, but I think if the stone is fully preheated, the extra thermal impact of the broiler shouldn't be too much for it- as long as you don't overdo it.

From the photos, it looks a little like you're using the floured peel that you used to deliver the dressed skin to the oven to remove the fully cooked pie.  That's a bit of a no no because it gets uncooked flour on the bottom of the cooked pie.  This uncooked flour tastes horrible. Use a metal peel or metal cookie sheet for removing the pie.

Re; 3 day vs. 2 day dough.  Malted flour has enzymes that produce sugar in dough that is both food for yeast and promotes coloring.  Unmalted flour still has these enzymes, just much less. So as you leave dough in the fridge, the more sugars are created, the more crust color you get. To a point.  Eventually the yeast activity will increase and residual sugars will decrease.

In another thread it mentioned getting the pizza out of the oven straight to a metal tray so the crust steams a bit. You've implemented this, correct?

I know, from the other post, your ingredient ratios, but how about posting your process?  A pre refrigeration and post refrigeration photo of the dough would be hugely helpful as well. Unmalted flours make relatively yeast unfriendly doughs and I want to make sure your critters are doing their thing.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 05:23:38 AM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2010, 09:01:58 AM »
It was by volume, or he would not have said a 20 oz cup. If it was by weight, he simply would've said 20 oz.

Peter,

I believe you are correct. However, since Tony G had responded to my post and I thought he might return, I wanted to confirm the way the oil was measured out. As I noted, there is a difference but it is not major. I was more interested in the amount of ADY. 2% ADY is a lot for a cold fermented dough.

Peter

Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2010, 11:09:42 AM »
It depends on how you define 'success' ;)  This is probably going to get me in trouble, but there's lots of people who eat quasi-NY pizza outside of the NY metro area, enjoy it, and then, in turn, duplicate that at home. It's not really high heat, short baking time puffy chewy non bready NY pizza, though.   There is a small group of people, though, that either live here or have lived here (or have visited extensively), that know and understand pizza bliss and have successfully recreated that bliss in a home oven.  It's not a large number, though.  And none of them have your dietary restrictions  :(

I'm sorry to say it, but you've kind of handicapped yourself on two fronts.  Equipment and ingredients.  I've become a lot more vocal about fibrament's inadequacies due to the growing number of people with experiences such as yours. It just doesn't quite have enough conductivity for quick bake times.

  Other the the stone, your dietary restrictions are the second half of a one two punch.  I sincerely believe that if you had either a better stone or a willingness to work with purported less healthy flour, your chances would improve tremendously. If you could work with both a better stone (1" cordierite or soapstone) AND All Trumps bleached bromated (enriched) flour, with your current level of knowledge/dough handling skills, the pizza of your youth would be a piece of cake.  You could do it in your sleep.  Which makes your current predicament a little frustrating.

well that is frustrating because when I ordered the stone, I wanted to make sure I got a good one so I researched here first and this stone was highly recommended. oh, well, though, I am not surprised. Do you have a stone you recommend specifically? No problem to order a new one.


Quote
Frustrating, but not necessarily insurmountable.

Caputo flour is unmalted, and that works fine for 850 deg wood fired ovens.  Unmalted flour, such as the Bob's Red Mill Organic flour you're using, does not work well in lower heat situations, though.  Without the enzymes in the malt, less sugars are generated, which, in turn, stunts yeast growth and coloring. For NY pizza, you need both.

I know artificially derived vitamins are off  your list, but what's your feelings on malted barley flour?  Ideally, you could find a malted unenriched bread flour, but I don't think such a thing exists. It's either all the additives or nothing. Bob's Red Mill sells malted barley flour, so you could add it yourself- if you were willing to use it.  Malted barley flour would improve your crusts dramatically.

I have no issues with malted barely flour. What about adding malt powder? I actually thought of this already and my sister is supposed to be bringing some malt powder with her tonight (she is visiting from milkwaukee and she has some she uses for baking) although I have no idea how to use, how much to add or anything.
Quote
Sugar, although not normally absolutely necessary, becomes a necessity when you've got an impaired stone.  What's your feelings on agave nectar?  That should give you browning, and, unlike honey or fruit juice, has a fairly neutral taste. Agave is rich in inulin which is a probiotic and relatively healthy.  Also, what about fructose? Does your diet allow that? Fructose has been rumored to be attached to a few health issues, so I wouldn't use it to make desserts on a daily basis, but a little bit once in a while in pizza may not be the end of the world. And, for what it's worth, it's low glycemic.  Fructose browns faster than any other type of sugar so you wouldn't need much.

In regard to sugar, Iím not even entirely sure that tiny amounts used for baking rather than sweetening would be off limits on the diet Iím following. So Iím not necessarily opposed to trying it. However, since you seem to think it isnít necessary with a proper stone, I would much rather simply get a new stone than start playing around with sugar.
Quote
I recommended 70% hydration because I want you to have experience working with a dough that was too hydrated. I guess if 64% is troublesome, maybe 70% might be a little too much, but I want you to keep increasing the water until it's absolutely impossible to work with and then dial it back a tiny bit. Next time, try 67%

That's the ingredient front.  I think you're at a point now where the time might be right for pushing your fibrament with a little careful broiling.  You've been doing the 90 minute preheat, right?

Yes, sometimes longer if I happen to not get around to making the pizza right away.


Quote
  I don't think it's making much of a difference, so dial it back to 60. Put the stone on the top rack of your oven (making sure you have enough room to work with). After the 60 minute preheat at maximum temp, crack open the door and put the broiler on for... 5 minutes.

The broiler of my oven is a separate compartment on the bottom. I usually always have it on because it turns on when you turn the dial to maximum. But Iíve never tried cooking with it.

Quote
Try another pie with 10.

10?
Quote
Bear in mind, there may be a small chance this may crack your stone, but I think if the stone is fully preheated, the extra thermal impact of the broiler shouldn't be too much for it- as long as you don't overdo it.

From the photos, it looks a little like you're using the floured peel that you used to deliver the dressed skin to the oven to remove the fully cooked pie.  That's a bit of a no no because it gets uncooked flour on the bottom of the cooked pie.  This uncooked flour tastes horrible. Use a metal peel or metal cookie sheet for removing the pie.

Oh woops. Could I just the other side of the wooden peel? I donít have a metal one or any cookie sheets that are really large enough yet.

Quote
Re; 3 day vs. 2 day dough.  Malted flour has enzymes that produce sugar in dough that is both food for yeast and promotes coloring.  Unmalted flour still has these enzymes, just much less. So as you leave dough in the fridge, the more sugars are created, the more crust color you get. To a point.  Eventually the yeast activity will increase and residual sugars will decrease.

In another thread it mentioned getting the pizza out of the oven straight to a metal tray so the crust steams a bit. You've implemented this, correct?

Yes, with the last pizza. although I need to buy a larger tray.

Quote
I know, from the other post, your ingredient ratios, but how about posting your process?  A pre refrigeration and post refrigeration photo of the dough would be hugely helpful as well. Unmalted flours make relatively yeast unfriendly doughs and I want to make sure your critters are doing their thing.

Ok, I can do that with the next batch of dough. I may switch from ADY to IDY with the next batch also. Iíve been using tranmanís method of just sprinking the yeast onto the dough without even hydrating it. I hydrated it once when making a 100% whole wheat pizza and got way too much rise, so Iíve been hesitant to do that again but with this information it sounds like it might actually be essential when using white flour. But I guess switching to IDY will solve the issue either way.

I was thinking of ordering some organic high gluten flour from central milling. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Thanks for all the valuable information. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2010, 01:06:47 PM »
scott123,

Have you posted any photos of your NY style pizza anywhere, and the NY style dough recipe you use as well? I think that might help the members, me included, get a better idea as to what you have been talking about and the results you have been achieving.

Peter

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: first attempt how to improve from here? (pics)
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2010, 01:43:28 PM »
Some reading material and links as I am doing a bit of research in the same areas as well.
Quote
Do you have a stone you recommend specifically? No problem to order a new one.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=53d1a212009dba9ba3301cc27968bc91&topic=10973.msg98499#msg98499
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=53d1a212009dba9ba3301cc27968bc91&topic=10987.msg98841#msg98841
http://axner.com/cordierite-kiln-shelves.aspx
http://www.continentalclay.com/products.php?cat_id=413&sub_categoryID=271
http://www.sheffield-pottery.com/Cordierite-Kiln-Shelves-s/318.htm
Quote
I have no issues with malted barely flour. What about adding malt powder? I actually thought of this already and my sister is supposed to be bringing some malt powder with her tonight (she is visiting from milkwaukee and she has some she uses for baking) although I have no idea how to use, how much to add or anything.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=53d1a212009dba9ba3301cc27968bc91&topic=5178.0
Quote
I was thinking of ordering some organic high gluten flour from central milling. Do you have any thoughts on that?
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9066.0
I am trying to locate soapstone locally myself, so far with no success.  Cordierite pizza stones are available in the Old Stone brand all over the internet and possibly locally although thicknesses are typically less than 1".  Still a viable choice used by folks on the forum inc Pete-zza and myself. 
Good Luck and keep on bakin'