Author Topic: Ultimate NY Style?  (Read 10105 times)

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Offline Steve

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Ultimate NY Style?
« on: October 15, 2003, 08:05:11 AM »
Ok, after watching "Pizza Wars" on the Travel Channel, I am psyched up to make a genuine NY style pizza.

The first thing that I noticed on the show was the ability of the pizza guys to toss and stretch the dough. One pizzamaker said that his dough was stretched so thin that "you can read the New York Times through it". They were tossing that dough around like it was a toy... and not one single rip or tear!  :o

So, just how do they get their dough so pliable?

My dough is always hit-or-miss. Sometimes it will stretch without ripping or tearing... but the majority of the time it does. I've tried over-kneading, under-kneading, double risings, high-gluten flour, bread flour, yadda, yadda, all with mixed results.  ???

Comments, anyone?
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Offline Wayne

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2003, 10:25:54 AM »
Ya know, I've always wondered the same thing.  Personally I don't bother tossing the dough but just working with it on the counter top I can tell it's not firm enough to be tossed without tearing.  I could never make mine firm enough to be tossed (at least as hard as they do),but maybe the water has something to do with it.
Trancending time, an age old battle with no victor...

An eternal struggle withthin every being...

The threads of fate which bind the very essence of existence...

Thick crust, or thin?

Offline Randy

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2003, 12:36:05 PM »
It takes more water.  A good wet dough will do the trick then knead in the old mixer for 13-15 minutes.  My last recipe went to 15 oz flour to 9 oz water but for your site recipe try 8 1/2 .  Not only will it strech better but it will make the crust crisper.  

Randy

Offline buzz

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2003, 10:59:51 AM »
Try using 00 flour, or two-thirds AP and one-third cake or 00 flour.

After you punch down the dough, let it rest for 5-10 minutes (to let the gluten relax).

I've tried the technique of letting gravity stretch the dough by turning it with both hands like a steering wheel--it works very well. I still haven't had the guts to toss it up in the air though!

Offline Randy

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2003, 11:13:52 AM »
Will have to disagree with you on this one Buzz.  You need more Gluten, not less.  More liquid will solve his tearing problem.  A wetter dough will maximize gluten development.

Randy

Offline canadave

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2003, 01:34:18 PM »
Randy,

I agree with you on this one.  The 00 flour seems to "soften" the dough ball when it's being made, but it really makes the final product more "thin crust cracker-like" than "NY style".

One question regarding the wetter dough--I find that if I try to increase the water very much, the dough becomes almost impossible to work with (I make the dough by hand)--it's too sticky.  How do you get around this?  Or do you just make it with a mixer?  Even with a mixer, kneading for a longer time, doesn't the dough stay too sticky to work with when you remove it from the mixer if you use the extra water?

Dave

Offline Wayne

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2003, 03:22:23 PM »
I've had my share of frustration with sticky dough.  Quickest solution I know is to just give the surface a coating of flower when you are ready to roll it out, but don't mix the flour in.  This will keep the majority of the dough wet but the outside will not be as sticky.  I find it kind of hard though but it's the only way I know of.  Any tips would be appreciated.
Trancending time, an age old battle with no victor...

An eternal struggle withthin every being...

The threads of fate which bind the very essence of existence...

Thick crust, or thin?

Offline Randy

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2003, 10:42:00 PM »
Wayne has the answer.  Develop the gluten first, then add flour to the outside if needed.  Dave I do mix mine with a Kitchenaid mixer but I have also found in working with a wet dough that if you keep your hands and marble wet it won’t stick.
The big enemies of gluten are fat and not enough water.

Randy

Offline canadave

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2003, 10:24:10 AM »
Randy--

By "hands and marble wet", you mean the marble countertop, right?  Doesn't that just make the dough a soggy wet mess though?  Any time I've taken dough and touched it with water, the dough become soggy very quickly (at least the outside of it).

Grrrr I want a KitchenAid mixer!!!  Which one do you have?  I'm looking at the Artisan model (5 quarts capacity).

Dave

Offline Randy

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2003, 10:59:11 AM »
Yes it does make a mess and may not work for a long hand knead.  Why don't you try to use the flour method but keep the dough as sticky as practical.  
I have the 10 year old kitchenaid marked heavyduty. I think I would have liked the tilt up head better like the Artisan.

Randy


Derek

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2003, 01:44:36 PM »
The original question was referring to pizza makers who can easily toss dough and stretch it thin. Pizzeria dough as I have seen it lying around is never wet but always smooth and floury (and you never see them tossing it with wet hands). Could it possibly be a combination of very fine flour ('00' or cake flour) and higher gluten flour? I found a thing online about neapolitan pizza and it claimed that they (people in Naples) would combine regular flour and cake flour, resulting in a low-gluten dough, and that the test for a good Neopolitan pizza slice was its ability to be folded in quarters without cracking or flaking. So it apparently can be non-crackly even if made with a traditionally low gluten flour. Who would've thought pizza is so complicated.

High gluten is definitely needed for the elasticity (and the NY texture). Maybe it seems so hard since we are trying to stretch it like silly putty but it really needs something like tossing to get it thin. Argh...

BTW go yankees!  :)

Offline Randy

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2003, 02:00:03 PM »
Derek once the sticky dough has risen it is not as sticky and the dough is flattened out using flour before streching.  The dough only has to be wet during the kneading operation when the gluten is developed.
Randy

Offline Steve

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2003, 08:02:08 PM »
Ok, I tried a new recipe last night.

3/4 cup warm water
4 tsp. sugar
1 tsp. olive oil (not extra virgin)
1/2 tsp. salt
1 tsp. active dry yeast
2 cups high gluten flour

Let rise two hours at room temperature. Punch down and refrigerate for a minumum of 4 hours (or up to 12 hours). Let warm to room temperature before stretching out. Makes one 14" NY style pizza.

Got this recipe from the book "The Art of Making Pizza" by Dominick DeAngelis. I used King Authur "Sir Lancelot" high gluten flour (14% protein). The dough was very pliable and I was able to stretch it paper thin! Not one single rip or tear! Made a very tasty crust. I will have to experiment with this recipe some more.


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Offline Steve

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2003, 08:05:22 PM »
Oh yeah, forgot to mention, the dough was very moist. In the KitchenAid mixer, the dough never really formed a firm ball... rather it stuck to the dough hook. After 15 minutes in the mixer (per the recipe), the dough could be handled without it sticking to your hands... but you had to work quickly or it would have. I turned the dough out onto a heavily floured work surface and dusted it so it would not stick to my hands while I stretched it. Very nice dough to work with!  8)
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Offline DKM

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2003, 09:45:40 PM »
No time like the present!!!

I'll start here in a minute
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline Randy

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2003, 09:56:08 PM »
One of the keys I look for during the kneading while using the KitchenAid is how much the dough is sticking to the bottom of the bowl while running.  His recipe like mine is approaching 60% water which, with the high gluten flour makes it very stretchable.  I was also glad to see his use of a fifteen minute knead cycle.  Most people under knead their NY pizza dough.
Try using a nice, light amber honey next time for a nice flavor.
Randy

Offline DKM

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2003, 09:10:20 AM »
Mine is in the fridge at the moment.  I had it in the mixer for 15 minutes and although wet it was not real sticky and I was able to form it into a ball of sorts.

Can't wait to try it.

DKM
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Derek

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2003, 02:36:03 PM »
Do you think it would be possible to make dough that moist by hand? Maybe by kneading it for a while and adding the water as it becomes more elastic? I'm gonna do a test batch today, but I imagine 15 minutes of kneading wet dough being difficult =)

Offline DKM

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2003, 04:29:31 PM »
If you don't knead it hard and consistently, it could take up to 30 minutes or more by hand.

DKM
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Derek

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Re:Ultimate NY Style?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2003, 01:44:46 PM »
My results (starting with 3/4 - 1 cup AP flour and 1/4 cup water, which I increased later):

Kneaded for about 10-15 minutes, spent 5 minutes beating myself in the head for not adding the wheat gluten, added a teaspoon of that, kneaded for another 10-12 minutes. It was pretty elastic at this point, so I started slowly adding water to it and kneading in my hands. It got to the point where it was wet but not really sticky, then it got just too sticky to knead by hand, so I stopped there and let it rise for an hour or so. It got pretty big. I punched it down (it was real soft but not slimy), coated it with oil (which was a bad move I think but whatever) and let it rise in the refrig overnight. In the morning I took it out & punched it down. It was soft on the outside but a little tough in the center. Maybe that's because it was cold?

I stretched it out... it stretched better than most doughs I have made, though it did rip in areas where I stretched it transparently. It seemed like it was a little dry, oddly enough. I let it sit for 10 mins and topped it and baked it... the texture was pretty good, though it was too thin in some parts (my fault).

Does it sound like I did anything wrong? Not kneaded enough, not enough/too much water? I might try it again in a real sized batch so I can make the crust a little thicker. Thanks for any responses!

Derek