1t try with Caputo a bust

[PizzaHog]

Yea I know, heat matters.  Well I had to try anyway.  60% hydration, 2.8% salt, Caputo Chef's flour, 0.15% cake yeast, 13 hour bulk and 4 balls baked up between 6-9 hours proofed all between 62 and 66 f.
Although covered with a damp tea towel the bulk ball still ended up with a skin so I just ignored it and balled it up anyway.  Then the balls developed a skin in the covered plastic proofing box.  Had to ignore that too.
The dough still came out great and seemed the right combo of elasticity and extensibility.  Stretched easily and quickly and even had those small bubbles here and there.  Whew, so far so good.
I imitated the vids I've seen, plopped the ball onto flour, both sides, then did the stretch, flip, and flap thing.  It worked!  I would not say roundness resulted by any means but I was pleased and gaining confidence.  With no bench flour I was able to move the stretched skin easily on the counter top.  This is cake I thought to myself, too easy.  WRONG!  
Now the fun began.  Like the vids, I dressed the pie on the counter top then attempted to pull/push it onto the peel.  With the weight of the sauce and toppings it was now glued down and that great extensibility was now my enemy as I overstretched and wrangled with it.  About 1 second before it was about to become a calzone I finally got it on.  It sorta looked like Texas at that point but no problem, I'll just call it rustic and hand made (the rest of the skins were dressed on the peel).  
I did the user oven adjustment to gain 35 degrees, pre-heated the stone on the oven floor and hit just over 650f.  Moved the stone to the top rack, kicked on the broiler, slid the pie in and waited for two minutes to pass for Neapolitan wonderfulness.  Then three minutes.  Then three and a half.  I think I could have left that pie in the oven, taken a shower, walked the dog, then taken a nap and it would still not be right.  I do not mean just browned nor barely golden.  Think albino.  I had to wear sunglasses to eat it such was it's bright whiteness.
I elevated the stone so as to be as close as possible to the broiler and even broke out the cast iron for the last pie, all to no avail.  Those leopards must truly be masters of camouflage for there were no spots to be seen.  Well, the bottoms did get a minimum of char spots but I have done way better with NY pies.  Which is what these ended up being.  Uncharred NY pies.  But pretty good one's at that.  The bottom did crisp just a bit but did not crack when folded and had the requisite tip droop and chewiness.  Interior was moist and I am liking the cake yeast.  I can't say these were a flavor bomb although I could detect a difference especially in aroma.  Digestibility was certainly good as I ate 2 pies myself.
I don't think the dough was over fermented.  At least there were no noticeable signs of such I could detect anyway.  Maybe it was though or not enough heat or some other error I made along the way.  A good experiment none the less as always since I learned a new hand kneading technique, got some cake yeast to try with other doughs, and also learned quite a bit thru all the reading I did to prepare for this go.
Well, can't just post pics of the successes so here is just one.  A white pie (pun intended) with basil and garlic infused EVOO, a few peperoni's, some mozz and pecorino.  WARNING:  Eyestrain may result without UV protection.  

[Jackie Tran]

I'm glad you posted up along with the pic.   I experimented with Caputo yesterday as well with high hopes only to be deflated.  I was defeated.      Felt sorry for myself for about 5 minutes thinking how much I sucked at making pizzas.   Then picked myself back up, came up with a new plan and formula and made dough again.  Such is life....

Here's what I did.  I made 2 batches using my usual formula, totally neglecting the fact that i was working with a lower protein flour.  I had read that a member was working with 68% hydration and using caputo, so I didn't think much of making a 67% hydration ratio.  Boy was I wrong!   

I made 2 doughballs, 1 with 100% caputo, 20% starter, and 67% hydration and 2nd had 2/3 caputo and 1/3 HG flour.  They bulk rised for about 3 hours then went into the fridge for about a day.  I originally planned for 2 days but got impatient. 

When mixing it up, I noted that at 67% hydration rate, the dough took up all the flour I had to offer and was still a bit sticky unlike my usual NY doughs.  That should have been a big red flag, but i proceeded giving it my usual hand kneading routine.  All went well till after I proofed at room temps for 3 hours.  Doughballs looked normal and poofy.   I went to get the first one out of the bowl and it didn't want to come out like my usual balls.  It was so wet it stuck to the bowl and had to be wrestled out instead of a gentle coaxing.

Went to stretch the 100% caputo ball and the dang thing was so pliable and flaccid.  Could barely get out a round shaped without it going too thin.  Then flopped it on the peel and dressed it.  Within less than a min, gave the peel a shimmy and the damn dough STUCK.  Hadn't had this happened since I started making pies 6 months ago.  So I had to use my old trick of putting a plastic floppy cutting board over the pie and inverting it to unstick, reflour peel, and re invert, then quickly into oven.  SAVED!! 

Bake was at 750 stone temp and bottom was charring in less than 1 min, so I rimmed it against the broiler and got some light browning.  No leoparding though. 

Onto 2nd pie, 2/3 caputo 1/3 HG flour.  Was a lot easier to get out of the bowl, stretch, and work with.  This one didn't stick to the peel.  Bake went fine.   

So I was really expecting (hoping really) for some leoparding but none showed up.  I think I need to cold ferment longer.   Both pies tasted pretty good but like PH said, they were more like a NY style rather than a neopolitan style. 

PH, I believe that our extensibility issue with the dough lies under gluten development.  The fact that it's a low protein flour and would suggest that it requires more kneading than we are use to when working with higher protein flours.  I believe this is how the pros are able to build the pies on the counter and drag them onto the peel.  Without proper gluten develop forget it. 

Also with proper gluten development (from kneading) a higher hydration ratio may not be an issue but for now I am repeating the test with a 60% hydration. 

Overall I thought the caputo did lend a slightly better pizza flavor (whatever that is) to the dough, but I was somewhat disappointed with the texture and flavor.  My issues with underkneading the dough, and not baking it accordingly may have made all the difference in my results and final opinion of the flour.  I will reserve my opinions until I do much more testing with the flour. 

[widespreadpizza]

TM,  with any 00 flour and natural starter,  all signs have always pointed to long room temp,  roughly 24 hour fermentation at about 60% with 3-5% starter.  Also,  because of the lower falling numbers with 00 flours,  they are much less forgiving to overfermentation.  Just trying  help.  I have never had much sucess with sourdough starters in the fridge.  -marc

[Jackie Tran]

Marc, all of you guys are such a wealth of information that anything you guys throw my way I file away and can use the info sooner or later.

I remade a batch today.  Ball #1 with 1/2 caputo 1/2 HG flour, 30% starter, 65% hydration, much much more vigorous hand kneading, will cold ferment for 2.5 days to try to get leoparding. 

ball 2 was 30% preferment (24h at room temps), 60% hydration, more vigorous hand kneading than normal, will cold ferment for 2 days. 

Both went into their bowls with excess bench flour as seen in some of the vids.  Marc, I was really curious about the differences between starter and 24h perferments so the reason for my current test. 

If all does not go well in 2 days, I will remake using your advice. 5% starter 24h ferment, 60% hydration, and bake.  Thanks for the tip.

[widespreadpizza]

TM,  Just to get into it further,  starters at low temps tend to favor one half of the relationship between the yeasts and lactobactilli resulting in an overly acidic dough with poor handling characteristics and lack of sufficient leavening.  Somewhere between 60 and 75 degrees is favorable to both halves of the starter.   -marc 

[Pete-zza]

13 hour bulk and 4 balls baked up between 6-9 hours proofed all between 62 and 66 f.

Hog,

I got a lot of laughs from your post. Thanks.

I had some difficulty understanding the fermentation regimen you used as discussed in the above quote, especially the "baked up" part. Can you tell me stepwise the fermentation procedure you used? Also, how did you measure out the fresh yeast?

Peter

[PizzaHog]

Tman
I've already proven my lack of knowledge on the subject so here is my 2 cents.

PH, I believe that our extensibility issue with the dough lies under gluten development.

Everything I've seen and read leads me to think Neapolitan type dough is quite extensible, way more than typical "can be thrown" NY style.

The fact that it's a low protein flour and would suggest that it requires more kneading than we are use to when working with higher protein flours.

Sounds likely.  With dough mixing until a windowpane stage is my understanding.  Not sure if this is full blown stretch a grape sized ball to 18" or a just will barely stage.
My 3rd party take is this dough is mixed to a point of strong gluten development, then that gluten is lessened as a result of lengthy and specific fermentation ending in an extensible, "wetter", softer, more tender and digestible dough.  If I am close here I can see the genius behind this.  Lots of gluten when it's needed to trap gas perfectly, and less when it is not needed like when eaten.  I guess with 300 years or so under their belt these Neapolitan pizzaiolo's got it figured out.  Now all we have to do is try and follow.  And buy a Neapolitan WFO.  And a fork mixer, Italian, not French.  And a Caputo apron.  I think that's the key...      

[Jackie Tran]

Hog, I agree, I haven't a clue to what I'm doing either.    I refuse to get the apron, hat, and any other paraphernalia.  The mixer - yes,  the WFO - maybe.   The nearlypolitan has been done before, and I want to achieve it as well, preferable using hand kneading and at most my outdoor ceramic grill.  If after I exhaust all possibilities, I will consider getting the apron.   

Marc funny you mention the temp of the starter as I was considering that myself.  I have always added starter cold out of laziness but just this weekend switch to a new method.   Take starter out, feed with a small amount of flour and a bit of water.  Let it sit at room temps for 3 hours to warm up and get active, then add it to my formula.  I did this with some waffles this morning it was the best I've made so it should be the same for pizza.  Thanks for the tip.

So far I notice 24 hour preferment is similar to room temp starter but has a lot more gluten to it.  Pete, what is there a real big difference between starter and 24h preferment aside for the bit of salt some add to preferment.  From my limited understanding, preferment is made from starter right?   

[PizzaHog]

Hog,

I got a lot of laughs from your post. Thanks.

I had some difficulty understanding the fermentation regimen you used as discussed in the above quote, especially the "baked up" part. Can you tell me stepwise the fermentation procedure you used? Also, how did you measure out the fresh yeast?

Peter

Hey Peter
Yea, I got a few laughs out of it too, all during the escapade.
And yes, as I am guessing you surmised, weighing 1 gram of cake yeast was iffy.  My new scale is accurate to a gram and I did it 3 times and 2 diff ways but could easily have been off.  So I have already picked out a 300g scale accurate to a tenth of a gram for future use.
The fermentation regimen was:
Finished dough temp was 67f, bulk fermented for 13 hours, air temp was 64f at the beginning.  At the end of the 13 hrs, the actual dough temp was 62f.
Balled and proofed at 66f, 1st ball for 6 hours, last of the 4 proofed for 9 hours.  I did not monitor the dough temps at this stage, was too busy laughing.
Hog

[Pete-zza]

Hog,

It's possible that you mismeasured the fresh yeast. One gram is about 1/17th of one of those small Fleischmann's fresh yeast cubes that I used to see before all the markets near me discontinued them. From the photo you posted, it looks like there was insufficient residual sugar in the dough after 19-22 hours of fermentation to contribute to crust coloration. The Caputo flour is made from grains with low levels of damaged starch and is unmalted. That means that there is little amylase enzyme activity to convert damaged starch to sugar to feed the yeast and to provide crust coloration. With the fermentation periods you used, I would have expected enough sugar to satisfy both purposes. It's possible that the yeast consumed all of the naturally released sugar and left almost none for crust coloration. Usually that happens when a dough overferments. Also, such a dough is likely to be on the wet or damp side and hard to handle without tears or holes forming in the skin as it is shaped and stretched out to size. Except for the dough sticking to your work surface, it doesn't sound like you experienced those ancillary shortcomings. Maybe one of our more experienced Neapolitan dough experts can tell you what happened in your case.

Peter

[PizzaHog]

Hog,

It's possible that you mismeasured the fresh yeast. One gram is about 1/17th of one of those small Fleischmann's fresh yeast cubes that I used to see before all the markets near me discontinued them. From the photo you posted, it looks like there was insufficient residual sugar in the dough after 19-22 hours of fermentation to contribute to crust coloration. The Caputo flour is made from grains with low levels of damaged starch and is unmalted. That means that there is little amylase enzyme activity to convert damaged starch to sugar to feed the yeast and to provide crust coloration. With the fermentation periods you used, I would have expected enough sugar to satisfy both purposes. It's possible that the yeast consumed all of the naturally released sugar and left almost none for crust coloration. Usually that happens when a dough overferments. Also, such a dough is likely to be on the wet or damp side and hard to handle without tears or holes forming in the skin as it is shaped and stretched out to size. Except for the dough sticking to your work surface, it doesn't sound like you experienced those ancillary shortcomings. Maybe one of our more experienced Neapolitan dough experts can tell you what happened in your case.

Peter

Peter
While I still think not wearing a Caputo apron had a negative effect, widespreadpizza's post earlier in this thread about 00 flour's unforgiving nature re overfermentation and your analysis make valid points.  Perhaps this condition with 00 dough just does not display the over the top symptoms I would recognize.  Or maybe the dough was in an early stage of over fermentation and the signs were there but I was unable to pick up on them.  Plus if I was off by just 1/2 gram of CY, that equals a whopping 50% error. 
So, apron or scale, apron or scale, hmmm...
Well, since I found a scale for less $$ than the Caputo apron I will give that a shot first and repeat this experiment as soon as it arrives.
Thanks Peter!
Hog