coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill

[PizzaHog]

Great looking pies there as usual Tman.  I am starting to think you could bake up a pizza in a toaster!
I hate to say anything, especially since you have all the equipment and are doing all the work here, but, that was a pretty wimpy pile of briquettes on top there bro!
Since a proper pizza oven is hotter at the top than the bottom it might take some serious lump pileage on top to get there.
But as your are the doctor and have shown there ain't no mountain high enough to keep you from pizza perfection, if this can be done I'm sure you will be the one to do it.
I think I am just too excited to see you pull this off and reach that goal.

[gtsum2]

nicely done tran!

[Jackie Tran]

I agree PH. That pic was taken before the bake.  Shortly after that pic I did burn another 50% more briquets and piled it on.

Thanks Gtsum. The best is yet to come.

[Jackie Tran]

Continued from thread "Any ideas if this pizza oven would work" reply #18
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.0.html

Well, I could be wrong on this, but it could be a one or the other type of scenario.  In an 'underneath' situation, you want to open up the walls so the heat can get to the ceiling, but when the coals are on the hearth, you want to bring the walls in nice and tight to prevent heat from escaping.

Scott here are some pictures of the combination method I was referring to.  The coals underneath can heat the hearth.  I'll also make provisions for the heat to travel up the side walls to heat the ceiling.  Instead of leaving a gap along the back, I'll close it off and shove some hot coals back there.  Their job would be 2 fold.  1) to add extra heat to the ceiling and 2) to radiate heat to brown the crust.  I would have to turn the pizza 2-3 times to get even browning. 

One problem I had with the previous set up of leaving a gap all the way around is that it was hard to control and predict where the fire would come up.  Sometimes in the back sometimes left or right.  I would just look for the portion of the rim that had brown and rotate base on that.

With this setup (if it works) I can at least predict with certainty which side will brown.  The other thing I'm not sure of is the ceiling height of 3.5".  But that I can vary base on the first few bakes.

Any thoughts and ideas are welcomed by all. 

[SmokinGuitarPlayer]

Have you considered ...instread of putting the charcoal in the back .. just leave some sort of "vent" back there to let the heat from below come up and go "on top" of the pie on the way out ??
FB/SGP

[Jackie Tran]

Yes I have SGP.  In reply #10 and below are setups similar to what you are talking about.  I can get heat and FLAMES come up all around but it is inconsistent.  Sometimes its in the back sometimes left or right.  I just have to rotate the pie.   The heat coming up is maybe not hot enough.  The pie has to spend a little extra time browning which leads to the bottom burning. 

I believe if I can get the pie close enough to the coals it will consistently brown quicker decreasing the chance of the bottom cooking too fast. 

BTW, you're website and videos are SUPER COOL!  Nice work!

[scott123]

Tranman, I'm not really certain this is going to resolve your ceiling/hearth heat imbalance. I guess it should help with side coloring, but, I think, as long as you have the primary source of heat rising up from below, I think you're hearth is always going to run hot.

Btw, are you going to start with briquettes at the back wall or add them as you go? If you add them, you'll definitely need an oven brush to clean the brick before delivering the pizza.

Also, the last time I looked, you had a bolt wedged in the top vent for suspending the stone.  That bolt is gone, right?  The reason I ask is that if the vent is opened too wide, you're not getting heat collecting in the head space when you close the lid.  The ceiling needs all the help it can get.

Edit:  It's just a thought, but your grill looks pretty sturdy. How is it doing with the current load of bricks?  If you think it can handle a little more than double that, I would consider building an enclosed firebrick box and using that as a WFO (or maybe CFO).

As I said, it's just a thought. 

[Jackie Tran]

Scott, thx for the feedback. Yes I was going to add the briquets after the hearth has reached temps of 750f.  I'm planning on burning the briquets separately and shaking excess ash off and adding them either with long reaching tongs or by pushing them back there. I'll be sure to run a moist rag over the hearth to clean it and cool the temps a bit.

Also that bolt is long gone. That top stone cracked after the initial bake and the bolt was removed then. I have been baking with that top vent open but will now try closing it after I get desired hearth temps. I keep it open during the warming up stage for air flow but have become acustomed to just leaving it open.

If this setup doesn't improve my outcomes, I at least have 2 ideas out of the exchange. Swipe the floor with a moistened rag and close the top vent.

The CFO inside the primo is an idea I had toyed with in my mind awhile back but hadn't put it into practice. I'll give it a shot down the road sometime.  The only caveat is space. Even if it were possible or did work it would be pretty tight in there as the primo's grate footprint is 19x26".

Again, many thx for the feedback.
Tran

[Jackie Tran]

It's been a few months since I've made pizza in the Primo.  The top and bottom heat was just off.  After having learned a few tricks from the MBE and watching the pizza hacker's video...
http://thepizzahacker.com/
I had a few ideas to try in the Primo.  I ended up putting some bricks in the firebox on each side to contain and concentrate the fire.   I also place a metal pan under 3/4 of the stone as a heat diffuser and to help channel the heat towards the back. 

I now had great heat distribution from top to bottom but the downside is that it is uneven from front to back.  Too much heat lost in the from.  Some extra attention and turning of the pies solved that but while the back is cooking the front of the pie loses out on a bit of ovenspring.

The pies were still good though.  Check em out.

[Jackie Tran]

It's been a few months since I've made pizza in the Primo.  The top and bottom heat was just off.  After having learned a few tricks from the MBE and watching the pizza hacker's video...
http://thepizzahacker.com/
I had a few ideas to try in the Primo.  I ended up putting some bricks in the firebox on each side to contain and concentrate the fire.   I also place a metal pan under 3/4 of the stone as a heat diffuser and to help channel the heat towards the back. 

I now had great heat distribution from top to bottom but the downside is that it is uneven from front to back.  Too much heat lost in the from.  Some extra attention and turning of the pies solved that but while the back is cooking the front of the pie loses out on a bit of ovenspring.

The pies were still good though.  Check em out.

[gtsum2]

Looks great tman!  I have been cooking numerous pies on the primo and they have been turning out very good, but I think I am done with cooking them out there.....my bands are stretching so bad when heated up for pizza temps that I almost lost my lid the other day..no matter how much I tighten them, the extreme heat is stretching them out = not safe at all.  Eggs and Primo's are fantastic cookers, and they do produce great food, but they have their shortcomings on pizzas I have found.  I think I need to look at a wood burning pizza oven to truly get to where I want to be.  Nice job on the mods though..pies look great!

[gtsum2]

are you still using that basic NY style dough recipe??  I have been using that for awhile now...(and tweaking a bit here and there to experiment)

[Jackie Tran]

Thx Gtsum, glad to see your still around.   Although I haven't been baking pizza on the primo much I have been making them in the MBE (mini black egg).  You can read about it here if you are interested
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11126.0.html
IMO, it works just as well for making NY style pies as the Primo.  I know many Primo owners have kettle charcoal grills laying around that could be easily converted.

I agree with you that though one can bake a decent pie in the Primo, but it is not optimized for pizza baking compared to a dedicated pizza oven.  Or that it could not bake a pizza like a true WFO.  I'm starting to realize the necessity for one in order to have a true WFO experience, especially for baking Neapolitan style pies. 

With my setup above, the top bands do not get heated or stretched.  As a matter of fact, I do not close the top lid down at all during the bake. 

I'm glad you told me you are experimenting and tweaking.  That is exactly my intention when I was putting that recipe together.  It is to be a starting place and then you can modify it to your liking.  I don't really use that recipe much.  The one I'm currently using isn't that different from that one.  I don't use sugar in the mix, and use slightly less oil, and yeast.   I also have change up my hand kneading technique quite a bit, a more simple technique that varies depending on the protein level in the flour and the strength of the flour and ferment times. 

I thought it would be fun for me to revisit that recipe soon and post up some decent pictures.  That recipe was put together at a time where my pizza knowledge was much less than now, although I still consider myself a novice.

I'm glad you're still hooked on pizza.  I'm surprise that after 9 months and nearly 300 pies, that I would be sick of making & eating pizza.  I'm not but I have gained a few pounds.  As a matter of fact, I'm always scheming for an opportunity to make some dough.

Best of luck,
Chau

[gtsum2]

I got a wild hair and decided to cook on the Primo tonight..I made up some same day dough (67% HR, .5% IDY, 2% OO, 2% salt) and proofed him for about 5 hours on the counter.  I used firebricks in the primo this time..it made a big difference, along with the Cyberq...by forcing the air through the cooker, I was able to achieve LBE like results, but with the superior taste of the Primo (wood fired) - Cooked at 610 stone temp and 750-800 dome temp - these were by best efforts on the Primo for sure. 

I even managed a bubble on the crust??  That is a first for me..does that mean anything??  (as you can tell, I am such a noob!)

[Jet_deck]

  That is a first for me..does that mean anything?? 

Yes, it means that because of those little black spots you are required to travel to each of the members (that post in  newbie topics) and replicate your results.  I can't believe this is a same day dough.  Can you go into more detail about your prep methods and the flour used?

[gtsum2]

LOL..on the black spots I am good with the leoparding (I have managed a few of those before ).  I was referring to the air pocket on the bottom crust in the last pic where I took a bite..I have not seen that before...it looked like a little blister on the bottom that "popped into the crust" for lack of a better description??? 

I used the following:

Sams Club (Bakers Choice - Con Agra) Bread Flour - 604g - 100%
Water - 404g - 67%
IDY - 3g - .5%
Salt - 12g - 2%
EVO - 12g - 2%

Thickness factor .09, made 3 doughballs - cooked 2 of them today, other is in the fridge.  Supposed to be 13 inches around..I would guess they were 12-13 (I forgot to measure).  I used Kosher salt instead of table salt.  2% bowl residual comp

I put the water in the KA mixing bowl and added the IDY, salt, and EVO and mixed for about 1 minute on speed 2 with wisk attachment.  I lowered to speed 1 (still with wisk attachment) and slowly began adding the flour...I added a little at a time until I had added about 60-70% of the flour - total mix time was about 2 minutes.  Let rest for 20 minutes.  Mixed on speed 1 with the wisk again while adding about a spoonful of the remaining flour at a time - after 2-3 minutes I had to switch to the dough hook...continued to add the rest of the flour - total mix time here was about 9 minutes.  Let sit for 15 minutes and then did a few folds and stretches (like JT talks about) - I was not real light with it....I folded and stretched 2-3 times and let sit for about 5 minutes.  I then divided into equal balls and did 3-4 more fold and stretches on each ball and then balled them up and put into lightly oiled glad containers and sealed them up...two of them on the counter top for about 5 hours and the other on the fridge for tomorrow.  The dough was easy to work with and stretched nicely, but not too easily (if that makes sense?).  Loaded with 6-n-1 crushed maters, precooked ital sausage and pepp.  I was really happy with this crust...the main differences between this batch and earlier batches are using Kosher salt instead of table salt, a slightly thicker thickness factor, and using the wisk attachment.  I think it mixed the flour and water much better then using the dough hook in the beginning.  I also did the 15 minute rest after final mixing before the stretch and folds (I had done 5 minute rest before).  The crust was light, airy, had a nice crunch to it, moist inside...right amount of chew, and the crust remained crisp even after cooling down (it was not a cracker crust by any means, but just right for what I think I am looking for).  Props to JT as he has helped me out quite a bit and I think he and I are liking the same kind of pies, so it is easy (for me) to see some of his techniques and recipes and results and kind of "borrow" them for myself to experiment with! 

Next cook with the Primo I am going to lower the stone as I think I can get a bit quicker heat up with the FB closer to the fire, but for me, the FB made a big difference (compared to the Primo D plates and the Primo pizza stone I was using in the past)

[Jackie Tran]

well hell, I'm glad at least one person is benefitting from my efforts.    Shaun I was going to say that the one or few big bubbles means potentially 2 things to me. 

1) the dough is sufficiently feremented.  I see this happen whether it is a same day dough or cold ferment.
2) to get more of these bubbles if you like them, I use stretch and folds to trap the air bubbles.  The reason you don't see more is perhaps you are doing too short of a bulk rise.  I will typically take the total ferment time and bulk rise for about half of that or at least 4 hours or so.  This gives the dough sufficient time to rise and develop more gluten.  Once you divid the dough at this point, stretch and folding traps air b/c the gluten is developed and will hold the air rather than absorb it back into the dough - if that makes sense.

If you stretch and fold with too short of a bulk rise or too wet of a dough, the dough will just absorb the air rather than trap it.   But here's the thing, don't go to wild with too many folds.  I typically only do 4 - 6 folds.    To do 4 folds, fold left to right, then right to left.  then fold the ends in top to bottom, and bottom to top.  Now fold your new squarish ball in half and seal the ends.  The dough still needs to proof now to realign the gluten matrix.  When you go to stretch the skin later, you'll get an even stretch. 

Shaun we live in different physical environments so I'm not surprise our HR's are a bit different.  I'm also now experimenting with lower HR's to see if I get a better crumb.  Even with HG flour, I have somewhat deceived myself into a higher bake temp and short bake time.  I'm really starting to see that somewhere in the realm of a 5-6min bake, and closer to 6 is ideal for HG flours.

BTW, I do really like same day doughs.  One advantage is that it allows one to experiment more often with quicker results.  I never could wait even 2 days for a cold ferment dough experimenting as much as I typically like to.   

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Also Shaun what has been discuss before by Scott and then later by me (just repeating after him) is that different stones do behave different at the same temps.  Low heat conducting stones are more forgiving at higher temps with higher protein flours.   

If this condition is true in your Primo, then it is also true in the home oven, LBE, etc.  I know you know this now, but just wanted to repeat that for the benefit of others reading this. 

Also to remind you for when you start taking your BBE to crazy temps and doing NP pies.  When you are ready and if you don't have 00 flours locally you can always do what I've done and experiment with AP flour.  The protein content seems low enough to tolerate high temps.

Cheers,
Chau

[gtsum2]

I am going to give AP flour a whirl...I know I tried a 65% HR and I did not like it near as much..the bottom crust seemed a lot gummier then the 67 and 68% HR - it seemed to have went soft a little faster as well