Author Topic: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill  (Read 21498 times)

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Offline gtsum2

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2010, 06:56:01 PM »
smokin - that is a great idea to let the dome heat up with nothing in it first (dont know why I never thought of it???).  I am going to follow that technique for my next pies


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2010, 10:31:09 PM »
Tranman ... I have been on a "mission" to perfecting the baking technique for pizza on the Big Green Egg ..haven't gotten to the Primo yet but I think you can apply some of my "learnings' to the Primo.  So here are my suggestions.

1. Set a target temp dome of 650 degrees. this is hot enough to get a good result and not so hot that the thing goes "nuclear" on you.

Thanks for the suggestions SGP,  I know it takes time to post up and I always appreciate it when ppl do.  A dome temp of 650 on the Primo represents upwards of 700F at the grate, 850F if using firebricks, and 950-1000+ if using a glazed ceramic stone. I agree, 850-1000F is hot enough.  >:D

2. Fire it up with nothing in it except the charcoal and let it get to 650 and then burn a while at that temp with nothing in it which will allow the dome to absorb as much heat as it can. This will provide for the "radiant" heat that you will need to cook the top of the pies.

With my preferred setup it's better to build the mini oven while the coals are just heating up not when it's 650-700 at the grate.  At those temps the dome has no problem heating up at all.  Also the mini oven or any bricks have no issues heating up quickly at those temps and at that proximity to the fire.  I know you can appreciate this if you have a BGE.

I have done extensive testing with the primo and radiant heating off of the dome ceramic.  The truth is that the dome is too high up.  You have to dome the pie or get it within just an inch of the top dome to get the proper browning within a short bake time.  This a problem as the dome slowly narrows at the top.  I have literally dome the pie so far up the crust and cheese touches the top of the dome, not an ideal situation.   Also b/c of the shape of the Primo, it's possible to not dome the pie all the way up but only about 75% of the way up.  This will allow the crust to brown on the left or right depending on where you place the pie.  With rotating the pie every 1 min or so you can get an even browning of the crust.  This method does work but I'm currently working on a different method.  The mini oven method which is working fairly well.  I just have to iron out a few bugs.  Trust me when I say i have done extensive testing on both the Primo and my home oven. 

3. then insert your stone etc. Insulate your stone from the bottom as we do on the egg ...... then monitor the stone temp and when it gets to 500 or so start baking your pies ... the dome should have enough radiant heat stored to bake the top nicely .. Once the stone gets over 700 or so , I have found that charring on the bottom happens before the top is done.

Yes if you want to bake at 500.  I want to be able to bake at 500, 600, 700, 800, and beyond.  Why? for the sake of learning.  To say i can do it?  To know what it's like to have been there and done that.  To have more options.  To make myself a more versatile pizza maker.  And b/c I have the time and the need to know. 

At 700, the charring on the bottom happens before the top is done.  This is true only b/c there is a discrepancy between the top and the bottom heat.  If it was even you would get charring of the top and bottom at approximately the same time.  This is happening b/c your top dome is too high up.  One solution to fixing this (not that it needs fixing, but only if you want) is to lower the ceiling, which is why I'm experimenting with the mini-oven technique.  The idea is to capture radiant heat off the top of the lowered ceiling which is about 1" from the pie.   Which is also why Pizza hog's idea of using charcoal in a pan above the pie is a brilliant one.  I haven't tested it yet, but have high hopes it will work. 

Just remember that  burning on the bottom is the problem that we are all trying to overcome. I have found that the Large BGE seems to work best because the charcoal is deeper in the base ... farther from the baking stone etc.

Not necessarily.  It is a problem for me as well but it can be a solution instead of a problem.  One solution is to cook at a lower grate/dome temp to reduce the temp of the hearth (bottom stone).  The issue with this is that if you reduce the heat, you also reduce the radiant heat from the top.  Thus the solution of lowering the ceiling (as oppose to doming the pie) AND PH's suggestion of adding a top heat source.  The benefit of cooking with a lower grate/dome temp is the reduce use of coal to achieve the same goal - which is even browning of top and bottom.

Pizza vids are all at :
http://www.fredsmusicandbbq.com/category_s/230.htm

Also there are a couple of videos showing things I learned at Tony Gemignani's school and there will be more to follow as I get time.
[/quote]

Thanks for the vids, I'll check them out.  I'll see if i can dig up a picture of a beautiful pie I cooked using the method you describe.  It works well so why change it?  Well it was a 6 min bake, which is good for some pies but doesn't cut it for the "elite" patsy's or nearlypolitan pies I want to bake. 

Tran

Also please feel free to make any more suggestions.  The more the merrier.  The more brainstorming we have, the more solutions will come about.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2010, 10:33:46 PM »
Here are some pics of the pies I have done a long time ago with a simple primo set up.  Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics. 

Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2010, 08:42:05 PM »
I'm curious. We sell a ton of those Primo stones ...do you actually bake on the glazed side?  looks like it in your pics ..and how does that affect things. I thought the purpose of using a stone was that it absorbed some moisture from the crust ... does the glazing do that?
FB/SGP
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 09:42:42 PM »
I'm curious. We sell a ton of those Primo stones ...do you actually bake on the glazed side?  looks like it in your pics ..and how does that affect things. I thought the purpose of using a stone was that it absorbed some moisture from the crust ... does the glazing do that?
FB/SGP


Really good question.  Yes the primo pizza stone is glazed on one side and is meant to cook pizza right on that side.  You might be able to cook on the other side as well, but the material is really porous and can easily dust off if a metal peel is scraping against it so I would advise against baking on the unglazed side.

Having said that, I do bake on firebricks directly and don't worry about the dust that comes off.  There is a possibility of biting into a tiny rock chip which does scare me. 

I had never even considered the stone absorbing heat to be an important factor until reading through some threads today.   From what I can tell the glazed side browns really well but I would say it absorbs no heat due to the glaze.  As a matter of fact it browns/burns the bottom too well at high temps.  As I mentioned before at a max temp in the primo oven, I've notice the surface temp of firebricks to be 850 while the primo stone is 950-1000F.  It also conducts heat a lot better than firebrick. Too well as a surface temp of 750-800 can burn the bottom in 30-40secs easily. 

Back some time, I went ahead and had the other side and my D-plates glazed with food safe ceramic material to keep out the oil and gunk from absorbing when using them for bbq'ing.   

The good thing about Primo ceramics is that they are kiln fired to above 2000F so they pretty much won't crack due to heat or extreme temp flux unless you drop them.  I have removed them from right above the fire and put them outside on the concrete and back into the hot oven without issue. 

Despite them working well, I'm interested in getting a thick corderite or soapstone to play around with it and have an extra pizza stone around. 

scott123

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2010, 10:05:56 PM »
The good thing about Primo ceramics is that they are kiln fired to above 2000F so they pretty much won't crack due to heat or extreme temp flux unless you drop them.  I have removed them from right above the fire and put them outside on the concrete and back into the hot oven without issue.

Actually, the temperature that ceramics are fired to have very little bearing on their resistance to thermal shock.  It's the materials the stone is made of, not the firing temp. A drinking glass might be formed from a melt in the 2700F degree realm, but if you heat it and cool it quickly, it's toast.

If the concrete you're placing these hot stones on is cold or wet, you could be placing yourself in a dangerous situation. In general, if at all possible, I think it's a good idea not to move very hot stones.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2010, 10:12:21 PM »
Actually, the temperature that ceramics are fired to have very little bearing on their resistance to thermal shock.  It's the materials the stone is made of, not the firing temp. A drinking glass might be formed from a melt in the 2700F degree realm, but if you heat it and cool it quickly, it's toast.

If the concrete you're placing these hot stones on is cold or wet, you could be placing yourself in a dangerous situation. In general, if at all possible, I think it's a good idea not to move very hot stones.

Good to know.  I noticed that these stones tolerate temp flux really well as I had to change up a set up once in the middle of a bake.  Not something I do routinely as it was really farking scary handling a stone and grill grates that are 700F+?.  I have leather welding gloves that I have doubled up.  And even working quickly the gloves get to smokin' rather quickly.  I can feel the heat seeping through both layers pretty quick.

Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2010, 10:42:52 PM »
oK...I've tested most stones except soapstone and the primo.   As you report, if the glazed side gets even hotter than unglazed, I don't need to test it. 

As I said before , I have decided to abandon the nuclear temps ... 700 and up ..after going to Tony's school as every pizza he bakes is at 600 to 650 except the 73 Neopolitan pies he bakes in the WFO each night. We baked in 3 other oven including a "regular" commercial stove and every pizza was really great ...anyway ... since the nomex gaskets have a 700 degree burn temp, I decided for these 2 reasons (Tony's class and the nomex burn temp) and just for safety / etc. to shoot for a steady 650 ...this will also help me get a longer bake time since after 30 minutes at 700  plus, I would start losing the fire and "session over".

All that being said, so far the regular BGE baking stone seems to be the best for me. Again, I let the  Egg get "steady" at 650 ..then insert the platesetter and stone and as the stone gets hot ..around 500 or so, I put in the first pie, each pie seems to "suck" about 100 degrees out of the stone but it recovers fast.... after a few ..the stone is over 700 and still rising and that is when the problems start with the charring on the bottom before the top gets baked fully.

This past weekend, at our Eggfest ...my pizza demo ..I got about 6 or 7 really good ones in a row then things started getting out of hand...  stone went over 800 ...I tried putting a pie on a alum pizza screen but the screen melted  where the fire / heat got directly to it! never saw that before ..

Anyway ...I have been trying cooling the stone by opening the dome ..it works good but this really lets any "stored" heat in the dome get bled off too.

I discussed this with Peter Reinhart last week (one of these days he's coming to our store to give a class) and he felt as I, that the main problem is the "convection" heat escaping out of the dome with no "swirling" over the top of the pie as it does in the WFO ... I do have a gadget that I'm working on that might fix this .. I'll report on that after I test it more but so far, I'm making progress.

your rig ... oven inside your oven ...I was trying to come up with a way to do that exact thing in the BGE but never got it figured out..I also tried all sorts of "risers" to get the pie higher into the dome and they didn't seem to make any difference ... I might need to revisit that approach.

One other thing, I noticed it looks like you have a cotronics gasket on your primo, I guess you know about the potential issues with those fibres around food. If you don't let me know and I'll explain the dangers. I have one sitting on my desk but can't get myself to use it.... even though I'm certainly no safety freak. I've just decided that the nomex works well enough.

Great discussion ..... I have a lot of pics but very hard to post here, perhaps I'll massage a couple and post them ...the videos show some pretty good pies done on the Big Green Egg.

FB/SGP
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.

Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2010, 10:48:12 PM »
PICTURE TEST.
Here's a pie baked on the BGE the other day at 650 baked in 4 minutes ish.
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.


Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2010, 10:53:02 PM »
Another pie baked on bge at 650 deg.
Caputo flour 60% hydration, a little oil and sugar to help browning .
I'll post one photo per post because of the size limit etc.
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2010, 12:49:31 AM »
SGG, those pies look GREAT!!  nice work.  Truth be told, I do agree with you about 650 being enough as I do like pizza baked at lower temps better.  Why the heck am I fooling with high temps?  It's more of a challenge.  Just want to be able to say I have done it and can do it.  Want to be able to taste what the elitist are eating.  :P  Once I accomplish it, I suspect I'll be coming back down again. 

Question - once your temp hits 800 on the BGE, can't you just close down the bottom vent to 25% (open) and wait a bit for the temps to come back down before loading another pie? That way there's no risk of burning pies.

One way to cool the stone, as recommended to me by another Primo forum member, is to swipe the stone with a rung out rag tied to some tongs. 

Not sure what gadget your are building but if I had skills and some equipment it would be easy to build a gadget to create the mini oven.  I would basically copy the 2 stone set up.  I would have a SS bench if you will sit over the baking stone.  The metal is sufficient to reflect heat to brown the top.  No need for a 2nd stone on top. 

Yes I do have a cotronics and have heard the concerns and debates.  I'm not personally worried about it.  After some use, the gasket gets covered with grease so there's very little risk of loose fibers migrating onto food, etc.

Thank you for the pics.  Again, very nice work.

Cheers,
Tran

« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 11:47:51 AM by Tranman »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2010, 11:24:16 AM »
So I gave PH's idea about adding heat to the top in the form of charcoal in a pan.   I had high hopes for this technique but it really didn't pan out.   It didn't seem to brown the top any faster than when I use the ceraminc D-plates on top.   

This could have been due to several factors.  1) not enough coals in the pan 2) heat source from below is as hot as the heat dissipating through the pan 3) heat lost to the dome 4) needed back wall to trap the heat rising from below.

At any rate, I still made some decent pies.  They jus took a bit longer to bake since I was working with a hearth temp of 750.  I'm thinking I like 800-850 better.  Will keep trying as I have some new ideas for tweaking this setup.



Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2010, 11:27:01 AM »
I only put coals in half of the pan above for this particular setup as I was trying to direct most of the heat to left side.  Most of the browning seen with the pies came from me placing the pies at the left edge of the stone and browning that edge with the heat and fire coming up and touch the rim directly. 

I was expecting to have to rotate the pie a few times, that's why I didn't load the entire pan full of briquets.   
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 09:03:11 AM by Tranman »

Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2010, 11:40:05 AM »
You know, its kinda funny ... we are all worried about making the perfect pie but your "failed" experiment (with the coals on top) was still a really killer pie ! Better than most for sure.
FB/SGP
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2010, 11:47:01 AM »
You know, its kinda funny ... we are all worried about making the perfect pie but your "failed" experiment (with the coals on top) was still a really killer pie ! Better than most for sure.
FB/SGP

yeah, I hear ya.  I have to laugh at myself sometimes.  My brother came over last night and had my home made pizza for the first time.  He was blown away with every pie he sampled.  They were all different as I was testing different flours, different amounts of yeast, different baking techniques, etc.   

I could tell the differences b/t them and was nit picking as usual but he was like, they all tasted fantastic to me.  He ate it all up.  I didn't have leftovers for once.   :-D

BTW, I made a pie with vine riped tomatoes (salted and peppered) as a topping, with OO, and lots of fresh basil and it was KILLER.  Tasted so good.   The 2nd one posted had sausage, roasted red peppers, and carmelized onion and it was a great combo as well. 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 11:50:05 AM by Tranman »

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2010, 02:41:08 PM »
Great looking pies there as usual Tman.  I am starting to think you could bake up a pizza in a toaster!
I hate to say anything, especially since you have all the equipment and are doing all the work here, but, that was a pretty wimpy pile of briquettes on top there bro!
Since a proper pizza oven is hotter at the top than the bottom it might take some serious lump pileage on top to get there.
But as your are the doctor and have shown there ain't no mountain high enough to keep you from pizza perfection, if this can be done I'm sure you will be the one to do it.
I think I am just too excited to see you pull this off and reach that goal.

Offline gtsum2

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2010, 03:35:17 PM »
nicely done tran!


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2010, 03:56:57 PM »
I agree PH. That pic was taken before the bake.  Shortly after that pic I did burn another 50% more briquets and piled it on.

Thanks Gtsum. The best is yet to come.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2010, 04:45:24 PM »
Continued from thread "Any ideas if this pizza oven would work" reply #18
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.0.html

Well, I could be wrong on this, but it could be a one or the other type of scenario.  In an 'underneath' situation, you want to open up the walls so the heat can get to the ceiling, but when the coals are on the hearth, you want to bring the walls in nice and tight to prevent heat from escaping.


Scott here are some pictures of the combination method I was referring to.  The coals underneath can heat the hearth.  I'll also make provisions for the heat to travel up the side walls to heat the ceiling.  Instead of leaving a gap along the back, I'll close it off and shove some hot coals back there.  Their job would be 2 fold.  1) to add extra heat to the ceiling and 2) to radiate heat to brown the crust.  I would have to turn the pizza 2-3 times to get even browning. 

One problem I had with the previous set up of leaving a gap all the way around is that it was hard to control and predict where the fire would come up.  Sometimes in the back sometimes left or right.  I would just look for the portion of the rim that had brown and rotate base on that.

With this setup (if it works) I can at least predict with certainty which side will brown.  The other thing I'm not sure of is the ceiling height of 3.5".  But that I can vary base on the first few bakes.

Any thoughts and ideas are welcomed by all. 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 04:48:13 PM by Tranman »

Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2010, 09:23:56 PM »
Have you considered ...instread of putting the charcoal in the back .. just leave some sort of "vent" back there to let the heat from below come up and go "on top" of the pie on the way out ??
FB/SGP
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2010, 09:37:41 PM »
Yes I have SGP.  In reply #10 and below are setups similar to what you are talking about.  I can get heat and FLAMES come up all around but it is inconsistent.  Sometimes its in the back sometimes left or right.  I just have to rotate the pie.   The heat coming up is maybe not hot enough.  The pie has to spend a little extra time browning which leads to the bottom burning. 

I believe if I can get the pie close enough to the coals it will consistently brown quicker decreasing the chance of the bottom cooking too fast. 

BTW, you're website and videos are SUPER COOL!  Nice work!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 09:39:23 PM by Tranman »

scott123

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2010, 07:19:46 AM »
Tranman, I'm not really certain this is going to resolve your ceiling/hearth heat imbalance. I guess it should help with side coloring, but, I think, as long as you have the primary source of heat rising up from below, I think you're hearth is always going to run hot.

Btw, are you going to start with briquettes at the back wall or add them as you go? If you add them, you'll definitely need an oven brush to clean the brick before delivering the pizza.

Also, the last time I looked, you had a bolt wedged in the top vent for suspending the stone.  That bolt is gone, right?  The reason I ask is that if the vent is opened too wide, you're not getting heat collecting in the head space when you close the lid.  The ceiling needs all the help it can get.

Edit:  It's just a thought, but your grill looks pretty sturdy. How is it doing with the current load of bricks?  If you think it can handle a little more than double that, I would consider building an enclosed firebrick box and using that as a WFO (or maybe CFO).

As I said, it's just a thought. 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 07:29:20 AM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2010, 07:55:10 AM »
Scott, thx for the feedback. Yes I was going to add the briquets after the hearth has reached temps of 750f.  I'm planning on burning the briquets separately and shaking excess ash off and adding them either with long reaching tongs or by pushing them back there. I'll be sure to run a moist rag over the hearth to clean it and cool the temps a bit.

Also that bolt is long gone. That top stone cracked after the initial bake and the bolt was removed then. I have been baking with that top vent open but will now try closing it after I get desired hearth temps. I keep it open during the warming up stage for air flow but have become acustomed to just leaving it open.

If this setup doesn't improve my outcomes, I at least have 2 ideas out of the exchange. Swipe the floor with a moistened rag and close the top vent.

The CFO inside the primo is an idea I had toyed with in my mind awhile back but hadn't put it into practice. I'll give it a shot down the road sometime.  The only caveat is space. Even if it were possible or did work it would be pretty tight in there as the primo's grate footprint is 19x26".

Again, many thx for the feedback.
Tran

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2010, 02:02:36 PM »
It's been a few months since I've made pizza in the Primo.  The top and bottom heat was just off.  After having learned a few tricks from the MBE and watching the pizza hacker's video...
http://thepizzahacker.com/
I had a few ideas to try in the Primo.  I ended up putting some bricks in the firebox on each side to contain and concentrate the fire.   I also place a metal pan under 3/4 of the stone as a heat diffuser and to help channel the heat towards the back. 

I now had great heat distribution from top to bottom but the downside is that it is uneven from front to back.  Too much heat lost in the from.  Some extra attention and turning of the pies solved that but while the back is cooking the front of the pie loses out on a bit of ovenspring.

The pies were still good though.  Check em out.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: coal baked pizza in the Primo ceramic grill
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2010, 02:02:36 PM »
It's been a few months since I've made pizza in the Primo.  The top and bottom heat was just off.  After having learned a few tricks from the MBE and watching the pizza hacker's video...
http://thepizzahacker.com/
I had a few ideas to try in the Primo.  I ended up putting some bricks in the firebox on each side to contain and concentrate the fire.   I also place a metal pan under 3/4 of the stone as a heat diffuser and to help channel the heat towards the back. 

I now had great heat distribution from top to bottom but the downside is that it is uneven from front to back.  Too much heat lost in the from.  Some extra attention and turning of the pies solved that but while the back is cooking the front of the pie loses out on a bit of ovenspring.

The pies were still good though.  Check em out.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 05:19:00 PM by Jackie Tran »


 

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