I need to share

[Arthur]

OK...I've been wrestling with this for days now.  I have recently been lucky enough to have some access to some good information.  The information was openly shared with me by main people, but I still field bad posting it.....but I do feel like I have to since everyone reading this is just like me - striving for that great pizza.

Here are my rules:
- I am not refering to specific places and please don't specify them in this topic.
- I will misspell certain words - for me to feel a little better about doing this 
- I'm doing the above in that at least it's not searchable from google.

Place #1
- really good place in harlam that most of you know and this place is mentioned many times in other postings (re: rev engineering)

info I know
- high gluten - saw the bag - can't tell you the name because it was quick but 50lb bag and it wasn't a name that I've seen before
- oil - yes - I believe olive oil
- starter - no - I asked twice and the answer was no
- salt - no! - I asked 3 times because I can't understand how this is possible but 3 times the answer was no  (can someone please explain)
- ice - yes - uses ice (I think someone mentioned this before, but someone please add on how this works)  Not sure if this is in additional to water or instead
- 24 rise, yes - but sometimes much shorter due to so many pies being made
- oven -coal - saw it up close - 1000 degrees
- sauce - saw the same cans that others have seen and mentioned already
- cheese - fresh mozz made there daily - too expensive to buy elsewhere is what I was told
- other cheese - note the misspelling - something like bellllla  miaaaaa  - I liked the fresh better
- peerless mixer (very old)
- 2 minute cook

Overall - A+  - coal oven makes the difference plus I loved their sauce.

Place #2

New place in the village mentioned because of its use of a starter and for its salt

Things I know:
- mostly the same as whats on sliceny - organic non bromated flour - mixture or 00 and others?
- no oil!
- salt - let me tell you I LOVED the salt (sicilllllllian seaaaaaaa salllllllt)
- 2-3 day rise, no commerical yeast (nat. lev.)
- san marzano sauce
- salt in dough and sprinkled on top
- oven - wood - 800-1000 degrees

Overall - A+ - I did taste a bit of sourdough in the dough which I pleasantly surprised I liked. Salt stays with you - some in my party didn't like the salt, but everyone loved the pizza.

[Pete-zza]

Arthur,

Ice and ice water are used by many pizza operators to adjust water temperature to achieve a certain finished dough temperature. The water temperature will change with room temperature, temperature of the flour used, the type of mixer, dough size, mixing speed and mixing time. As a simple example, if the room in which dough is to be made is very hot (as in the summer), or the mixer puts off a lot of heat, then the only way to achieve the desired finished dough temperature is to use cold or ice water to offset all the other high temperatures. Also, some mixers, called vertical cutter mixers (VCMs), put off so much heat that it is necessary to cool down the bowls between batches. Ice water is used to do this in many cases.

The "no salt" matter is harder to understand. There are salt-less breads (Tuscan breads), and I recall seeing a Tyler Florence segment on Neapolitan pizza dough in which the dough had no salt in it, but I otherwise don't recall seeing a salt-less pizza dough. If the crust is very thin, maybe salt isn't really needed or detectable. I made a DiFara clone dough recently with very little salt in it and I couldn't tell in the finished crust. The crust tasted normal from a salt standpoint.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Arthur,
Interesting comments about my all-time favorite pizzeria (place #1).

I guess the information about salt and oil are two main areas where I find myself scratching my head. Logic should dictate their use of salt and non-use of oil. It doesn't seem to pass the giggle test. One guess could be that they threw your table some false clues and were just having fun with it all.

I wish I were literate enough in the ways of pizza making to comment intelligently about the salt issue. I have to wonder if the "main" person you engaged in conversation thought he heard sugar when you uttered salt. Stranger things have happened.

Regarding their use of OO, did the main person indicate that OO was incorporated into their dough and not simply drizzled on top?

In any event, I too will be able to go to "Harlam" in the very near future. Sunday afternoon if all works out. I plan on following up on a number of recipe and ingredient gaps I have not been able to close. I should also have enough time to go to one more joint and am having a hard time deciding between the wonderful toppings of Dom's or the authenticity of Una's.

I will be commenting on my adventure in the Reverse Engineering thread.

[Arthur]

I guess the information about salt and oil are two main areas where I find myself scratching my head. Logic should dictate their use of salt and non-use of oil. It doesn't seem to pass the giggle test. One guess could be that they threw your table some false clues and were just having fun with it all.

I was scratching my head as well.  I don't understand why they would not tell me the truth in this area, but allow me to see and hear so many other things.

Also, for place #2 - no fridge time - 2-3 days on counter.  When asked about how he does this, the response was that he used more water in his dough to account for this extra time.

[bakerboy]

*Also, for place #2 - no fridge time - 2-3 days on counter.  When asked about how he does this, the response was that he used more water in his dough to account for this extra time.*
    THIS has got me scratching my head.  Naturally leavened or not, 2 to 3 days?  I wonder if they were speaking of the pre-ferment.  2 to 3 days feeding and extra water for the pre-ferment i can get my head around, but using pre-ferment in the dough and then giving 2 to 3 days at room temp.?  i just dunno.  That better be a cold room or they must be using like 3% salt.

[Pete-zza]

If we are talking about the same #2 place, the process used to make the dough is described at http://www.sliceny.com/archives/2004/10/una_pizza_napol.php, by clicking on the left-most thumb nail at the top of the page (it's in light yellow).

Peter