Author Topic: New Challenge, New Pizza  (Read 4313 times)

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Offline hotsawce

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New Challenge, New Pizza
« on: May 22, 2010, 12:00:50 AM »
http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/05/marios-restaurant-clifton-nj-home-of-the-emma-style-pizza.html

Anyone willing to try replicating this style? The article provides some valuable information as for temperature, but it would be interesting to see it done in a home oven...which looks entirely achievable. Looks like a delicious pie.

I imagine the first place to start would be a thickness factor/dough weight. It's the thinnest pie I've ever seen....even thinner than the bar pizzas/cracker crusts.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 12:14:45 AM by hotsawce »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 12:25:00 AM »
I'm not one for thin crust but that does look pretty dang good.  It looks very very light.  It looks more like a thin NY'er than it does a cracker crust. 

I would think that would be easy to make.  Just take a Patsy's dough and window pane it.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 12:27:25 AM by Tranman »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 12:27:59 AM »
I'd imagine it's the kind of pie you could make and devour in a sitting....I love a nice thin pie depending on my mood, and sometimes a light thin foldable paper thin pie can do the job!

Someone with a bit more pizza knowledge than me, take this on! It looks like 550 is perfect for this thickness!

Offline hotsawce

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2010, 12:56:58 AM »
Pete-za, get in on this! Your Mack's clone was amazing....so do Jersey another solid!  :D

Offline Jackitup

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2010, 03:41:11 AM »
I would bet a good quality flour tortilla would be darned close or a flour tortilla recipe and make them to the size you want. When the kids were younger and at home I would have tortilla pizza nite. A bunch of different toppings and cheese/sauce and everyone would make their own personal pizzas. They would cook up in a coupke minutes. I still like them once in awhile. Super thin and crispy. Got one of those stainless pizza ovens you see behind some bars for quicky pizzas that works great for those.
Jon
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2010, 08:52:07 AM »
Jackitup although flour tortilla pizzas are thin and good, these look thinner.  Like window pane thin. The bottom crust looks like an ultra thin NY style dough whereas the rim does look like a cooked tortilla or cracker crust.   A window pane NY wouldn't be exactly the same but would get you close.

Another question is, do the slide this bad boy off a peel or do they bake it on a pan?  I would bet $ it's stretched, loaded on a pan, and baked on a pan.  It would be an incredibly difficult feat to slide something like this off a peel and still maintain it's large round shape and even bottom.  I also don't see any bench flour.

The sauce would also be very or rather thin. No chuncky or even thick sauce here.  Cheese would be shredded very thinly or using the finer grate and used sparingly. Baking temp. I do agree HS. maybe somewhere in the 500F realm for 5-6min?

Im doing a bake this afternoon. I'll try to window pane some dough and give 'er a shot.   

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2010, 09:08:14 AM »
HS I just took another look after posting the above post and our suspicions were right, it says it right in the article, baked at 550 for 5min.  They also use a rolling pin to get it that thin. 

My dough in the fridge wouldn't work for this project as I fear the hydration rate is too high. This would require a hydration ratio in the low 60ish percentile I'm assuming. 

Offline Matthew

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2010, 10:31:39 AM »
HS I just took another look after posting the above post and our suspicions were right, it says it right in the article, baked at 550 for 5min.  They also use a rolling pin to get it that thin. 

My dough in the fridge wouldn't work for this project as I fear the hydration rate is too high. This would require a hydration ratio in the low 60ish percentile I'm assuming. 

Tran,
If you use plenty of bench flour & flour the rolling pin you should be fine.

Matt

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 10:51:49 AM »
I think you are right Matt.  After more thought, I high hydration dough and a lot of bench flour should do the trick.  I was thinking a lower hydration earlier b/c you would want something with strong gluten stucture to prevent tearing when stretch out that thin, but a higher hydration would help in opening it up.  So who knows.  I'll just give it a try with what I have.


Offline hotsawce

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 11:01:07 AM »
Tranman, the article says a rolling pin is not used. Also, judging by the bottom of the pie, I'd hesitate to say it's cooking in a pan. Still it makes me wonder how they could slide something so thin off a peel.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 11:25:21 AM »
Tranman, the article says a rolling pin is not used. Also, judging by the bottom of the pie, I'd hesitate to say it's cooking in a pan. Still it makes me wonder how they could slide something so thin off a peel.

Oh whoops guess I misread that.   I'm in the process of making up a batch of emergency dough for this test.  I was already baking this afternoon so I'll throw this one on the list.  I can't use my dough that has been cold fermenting b/c I'd have to reball it and from experience I know that's not going to cut it with HGBF. 


Online Pete-zza

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2010, 11:48:40 AM »
Pete-za, get in on this! Your Mack's clone was amazing....so do Jersey another solid!  :D


hotsawce,

I am always up for a new challenge but I have discovered that it is very difficult to reverse engineer and clone a pizza that you have only seen in photos and videos but never eaten, or people have described based on memory, and where you don't know the identity of or have access to the same or similar ingredients as the target pizzeria uses. I have been made keenly aware of these shortcomings from my recent attempts to clone the Mack's boardwalk pizza. There is also an unsatisfying, frustrating feeling that comes from cloning efforts--like not knowing that you actually succeeded. At least with my Papa John's clones I could compare them with the real thing that I can buy minutes from my home.

I also try not to do multiple cloning efforts at the same time. Right now, I am still working on the Mack's clones. Even that effort may come to a crawl now that temperatures are rising in the Dallas area. The weatherman is forecasting temperatures in the 90s over the next week.

My only off-the-cuff observation of the Mario's pizza is that for reverse engineering/cloning purposes I would perhaps try using a dough with a high hydration, a fair amount of oil, normal salt levels, and maybe a bit of sugar, and start with a thickness factor of around 0.05. Since most pizzerias use bromated flour, I would look to do the same. While Mario's may not be using a rolling pin, they may be using a sheeter or roller of some kind, especially if they do a high volume business. If someone can purchase a basic cheese pizza from Mario's and weigh it right after purchase, and also note its size, that information might help someone zero in on something that might pass muster from a cloning standpoint. You might also put on your Inspector Clousseau hat and mustache (http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/252-217, but leave the gun at home) and go dumpster diving or sit across from Mario's in your car with a long lens camera waiting for suppliers to show up with deliveries. If worse comes to worse, you can always apply for a job at Mario's.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 11:55:10 AM »
Peter, you're hilarious at times.  Just out of curiosity, why the high amount of oil?  I'm not familiar with using oil in pizza dough.  What benefits would it lend to making a pizza like this or an ultrathin NY'er?

Offline hotsawce

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 12:23:36 PM »
Pete-za. It's quite alright; I understand what you are saying. I may take this on this weekend...actually, I'd really like to; the reason I ask for the help of senior members, though, is because of your expertise...not because I'm lazy!

Now, on to cloning!
I do not live near Mario's, so maybe someone in North Jersey would be willing to check out a pie and weigh it?

As for thinness...it doesn't really look like one needs to worry about rise in the crust, as it's so thin. Do you think we could get away with achieving a similar result by using a rolling pin, even though they don't? I've stretched pies very thin by hand, but this might be tough.

I just plugged in the 0.05 thickness factor, and I'm getting about 160 grams for a 12 inch pizza.

I don't have access to bromated flour, so I'll likely try bread flour. What would you guys suggest for the hydration/oil/sugar percents? Additionally, the lehmann calculator says EVOO is not advised...so what is used? I've got some peanut oil...okay that might be a little bit ludicrous  ;)

Salt will probably be about 2.5%, and IDY .17%.

Finally, do you think this will be difficult to get off a peel? I'm thinking I might cook this one on the second lowest rack of the oven...the lowest rack might completely fry crust.

Should be a cool project, so anyone interested should jump in!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2010, 12:35:05 PM »
Just out of curiosity, why the high amount of oil?  I'm not familiar with using oil in pizza dough.  What benefits would it lend to making a pizza like this or an ultrathin NY'er?

Tran,

A lot of oil improves the extensibility of the dough when being formed into the skin (by the way that the oil coats the gluten strands), and it will help add "wetness" to the dough, which should help produce a finished crust that is not stiff and where the slices will droop as shown in the photos. Further, because the oil has tenderizing effects by reducing the rate of evaporation of the water in the dough during baking, the crumb can be on the soft side while the crust has some crispiness. The rim can still end up somewhat crackery because the crust is so thin to begin with and the rim gets more exposure to the oven heat than the rest of the pizza. For experimental purposes, one might try a combination of high oil and modest hydration, high hydration and modest oil, and high hydration and high oil. As between these three possibilities, I might be inclined to start with a combination of high oil and modest hydration (maybe in the 50% range) on the assumption that the dough is put through a sheeter/roller. That equipment does a pretty good job with high-oil doughs, as I discovered when I was researching sheeters and trying to clone Giordano's deep-dish doughs that are run through sheeters. In a home environment, I would use a rolling pin. That does a pretty good job with doughs with high oil content and doesn't stick on a peel or work surface the way a high hydration dough might.

As I noted, this is all off-the-cuff without thinking too deeply on the subject. Like everyone else, I would have to roll up my sleeves, go to my kitchen, and start messing around with different possibilities. And hope for better intelligence on the Mario's pizzas in the meantime. 

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 12:40:05 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2010, 12:38:40 PM »
I had read bits and pieces of info about oil before but your explanation ties it all together very well.  Unfortunately I have a small window of time to work with this time but next time I'll add the oil to see the difference. 

I just mixed up a batch of emergency dough to be baked this afternoon and doing a rush proof right now.  In no way I'm I trying to reverse engineer this pizza.  My goal is just to simply make an ultra thin NY pizza.

That being the case I'll post my results over in Norma's thread.  Sorry HS.  :(

Offline hotsawce

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2010, 12:41:59 PM »
It's fine. I'm sure it'll come along slowly. I'll be working on it from time to time.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2010, 01:20:19 PM »
As for thinness...it doesn't really look like one needs to worry about rise in the crust, as it's so thin. Do you think we could get away with achieving a similar result by using a rolling pin, even though they don't? I've stretched pies very thin by hand, but this might be tough.

I just plugged in the 0.05 thickness factor, and I'm getting about 160 grams for a 12 inch pizza.

I don't have access to bromated flour, so I'll likely try bread flour. What would you guys suggest for the hydration/oil/sugar percents? Additionally, the lehmann calculator says EVOO is not advised...so what is used? I've got some peanut oil...okay that might be a little bit ludicrous  ;)

Salt will probably be about 2.5%, and IDY .17%.

Finally, do you think this will be difficult to get off a peel? I'm thinking I might cook this one on the second lowest rack of the oven...the lowest rack might completely fry crust.

hotsawce,

I fully understand what you are saying.

In rethinking things, I would perhaps up the thickness factor to 0.055. It doesn't really require a lot of dough to make a pizza. I remember being in a Grimaldi's pizzeria in Scottsdale, Arizona and learning that they made an 18" pizza with only 14 ounces of dough. That corresponds to a thickness factor of 0.055. I do not recall that the pizza struck me as being all that thin.

I could be all wet, but my thinking is to try about 50-52% hydration, about 8-9% oil (more on this later), 1.75-2% salt, and maybe 1.5% sugar. The amount of yeast will depend on how long you want to ferment the dough. At this point, we really don't know how Mario's ferments their dough. It could be at room temperature (with a sheeter, they can just take a chunk out of the bulk dough and run it through the sheeter) or in the cooler. I think that with a dough with a composition as mentioned above, one should be able to use a rolling pin without having the dough stick all over the place. Maybe I can find my notes on the Giordano's clone doughs to refresh my memory on the baker's percents that yielded a dough that I had no trouble rolling out using a rolling pin and which did not stick to everything.

I wouldn't worry too much about the type of oil. My recollection is that when Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I were working on the design of the Lehmann dough calculating tool--which was to be dedicated to only the Lehmann NY style dough formulation--we put the admonition on the use of olive oil because the Lehmann dough formulation was a commercial formulation, and olive oil, especially at high levels, was not as common as using other oils for the NY style, such as soybean (vegetable) oil. If we were to re-do the tool, we would take out the admonition. So, you should use what is most convenient for you. Many operators use a blend of olive oil and canola oil or vegetable oil, or a pomace olive oil, mainly because of lower cost. A blend of olive oil and another oil should soften the flavor of the olive oil.

As you proceed, you might even try calling Mario's. You should at least be able to find out their pizza sizes. If you tell them you are an out-of-towner planning to visit with a bunch of friends and you'd like some information on their pizzas, they might volunteer something of value or you might be able to ask them a few questions in the process. 

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2010, 03:19:20 PM »
Peter, sorry, but this is not an 8% oil pie. This is an old school NY style tavern pizzeria that offers a whisper thin version of their NY style crust.  I guarantee you that they don't make two different doughs.  If 40% of their business is the Emma pie, then they most likely form smaller balls, but I bet you at the beginning (1 person out of 10), they would just take their regular NY dough ball, cut a piece off and form the skin from that.  That's how my local place does it when you ask for an 'extra thin crust.' At least, that's how the guy that knows what he's doing does it.  I've seen a teenager opening a skin normally and then hack off the entire rim with a knife. Crust murderer!!! :)

Traditional NY pizza is relatively lean dough. I think oil is an extremely common player, but exceeding 3% is pushing the limits of the style. 3% is the cutoff where the crust still has that dry opaque crusty french bread like appearance- more than that and the crust starts looking translucent/oily. 

Case in point, Hotsawce mentioned reverse engineering Star Tavern's pizza recently.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10933.0.html

I think whatever knowledge can be gleaned in this thread, might help there.  To an extent. Although flexible/foldable, Star Tavern is not quite so thin/more crackery and... contains more oil.

http://static.flickr.com/75/200647013_383ec04e63.jpg?v=0

The flexibility in Mario's pizza comes from high hydration, not oil.  You can have very high oil low water cracker crusts that are very rigid. As I mentioned before, this is just a traditional NY style dough rolled extremely thin. With that in mind,

Lehmann +
1.5% sugar
Oil to 3%

would be a good jumping off point.

Beyond that, I would knead minimally so the final product is as extensible as possible. In theory, you could roll it part way, let it rest and then roll it more, but I think a minimal knead (less than 2 minutes) would still give you good spring (with cold fermentation) with less elasticity on the open.

And, although normally I would say that one could achieve the same results with unbromated flour as you would with bromated, in such an extreme circumstance as this, I really think the extensibility of bromated flour will make a difference. This is almost like a phyllo territory.

I would also stick to Tony Gemignani's rolling technique and not pinch the rim.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>


Besides rolling thin, I'd finish opening the skin by hand to give it a little more character.

This may be obvious to those looking at the pictures, but don't forget balance when approaching toppings.  For a crust that thin, you want minimal sauce and minimal cheese.  The traditional approach of being able to see the skin through the sauce should work, and for cheese, I'm thinking somewhere in the 6.5 oz. realm for a 16" pie.

The thinner the pizza and the lighter the toppings, the easier it is to launch off a peel and the less flour is needed. You don't get the kind of blistering you see in the photos with a pan. What I would not recommend with a pizza of this thickness is rotating during baking as the bottom will tear very easily.

Lastly, 550 in a deck oven, because of the amount of thermal mass involved, is going to be tricky to match at home. Pre-heating a typical pizza stone to 550 (or even 600) isn't going to cut it. I'm thinking this is an LBE/BGE or Toby's broil technique type of endeavor. If you fail to have sufficient heat and just go longer (more than 6 minutes), not only will you loose the oven spring, but the crust will dry out and you'll have cracker city.  You don't want to go too hot, though, because if any spots scorch, I think there's a high possibility that you'll end up with holes in the crust after removing the pie from the oven.  A traditional thin crust pie can lose a layer to stuck on char, but not here.

Regarding oil, for typical NY style, anything neutral is fine. No EVOO, no peanut.


At this point in time, I don't like spending top dollar/travel time on pizzas, but I do get my flour in Clifton, so I might bite the bullet and shell out nine bucks for a small pie.

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Re: New Challenge, New Pizza
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2010, 03:35:23 PM »
scott123,

Thanks for the observations. They highlight how difficult it is to recreate a pizza without ever seen or eaten one in person.

Peter


 

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