Author Topic: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?  (Read 46924 times)

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Offline norma427

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Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« on: May 22, 2010, 08:32:36 AM »

Thinking back to when I had a crispy thin pizza at the New York Restaurant Show and Pizza Expo, I would like to try to make something like this if at all possible.  The pizzas were called Ultra-Thin pizza shells.  I enjoyed this Ultra-Thin pizza very much.  It reminded me some of a cracker-style crust, but had some characteristics of a New York style pizza.  I tried to purchase some of these ultra-thin pizza shells, but couldnít find a distributor in my area.                                                                                                                                                       
The Nutrition Facts for a 14" pizza are under The Original 1/16" thin. This is the size pizza I would like to try if I can figure out a formula.

http://www.ultrathinpizza.com/products/index.html 

The nutritional facts say the serving size is 8oz -8.5oz,.or 225g for a 14" pizza shell.  It also says there are 7g of fat, so I think that would mean some kind of oil is used in making this ultra-thin pizza.  The sodium amounts seem high to me.  That also appears to be sugar in this formula.

Under the baking instructions, it says the dough should be docked to prevent bubbling.  Baking instructions also say it these ultra-thin shells can be baked on a pizza stone, screen or metal deck oven, at 525-550 degrees F.  It also says to sauce the shells to the edges.

http://www.ultrathinpizza.com/pdfs/bakinginstructions.pdf

Since this pizza was very different than I have ever tried, I wonder if anyone can look at the nutrition facts and get an idea of how I could proceed. I do want to use IDY in this formula. This ultra-thin pizza says it is par-baked, but I donít think it would have to be in a home setting. Maybe the pizza shells would need to be par-baked, but this would have to be tried. The ultra-thin shells or flatbreads they sell are frozen and then baked at your location to the best of my knowledge.  I think this ultra-thin pizza could be rolled out with a rolling pin.

Under their website it says Grandfather Joseph Salamone, born in Northern Italy, created the original Ultra-Thin pizza shell recipe.

http://www.ultrathinpizza.com/index.html

There are also many recipes for topping this style of pizza halfway in this page.  You can see how thin these pizza are if you look under these recipes.
 
http://www.ultrathinpizza.com/culinarycorner/index.html

Picture below is one that I copied.     
      
Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 09:00:33 AM »
Norma, interesting you just started this thread as Hotsawce just posted a similar thread titled "new pizza, new challenge", which looks to be an ultra thin NY'er to me.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11043.0.html

I have some dough ready so I'll give it a shot this after noon.

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 09:38:31 AM »
Norma, interesting you just started this thread as Hotsawce just posted a similar thread titled "new pizza, new challenge", which looks to be an ultra thin NY'er to me.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11043.0.html

I have some dough ready so I'll give it a shot this after noon.

Tranman,

Since this ultra-thin has the nutritional facts, this could help in trying to make a pizza like this.  I have been searching the web for some kind of recipe that might work, but am not sure.  I found this recipe, but am not good at figuring out the nutritional facts to see if it compares.  Also I can't figure out converting to baker's percents.

It isn't easy trying to reverse-engineer a certain kind of pizza without some other useful information as I have found out. 

http://www.recipezaar.com/recipe/Super-Thin-Pizza-Crust-37880


 10 ounces unbleached all-purpose flour, preferably gold medal (2 cups)
 1/2 teaspoon instant yeast
 1/2 teaspoon honey
 1/2 teaspoon salt
 6 1/4 ounces water, 100 to 105 degrees
1/4 cup olive oil

I would also like to use sugar in place of honey.

Do you have a formula in mind for this ultra-thin pizza?

Norma

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2010, 10:19:13 AM »
Unfortunately I don't have a recipe in mind.  I usually take more of an unsophisticated approach to most things.  More trial and error method.  My only thoughts on this are a rather low hydration NY recipe stretched very thin or to use a rolling pin.

My brief trial with this will be to take a small doughball roughly 150 gm? and window pane it to about 12-13" or so.  My only reservation at this point is whether to attempt to slide it off a peel or to stretch it and bake it on a pan.  I would bake it on a pan but I want the skin to cook quickly when hitting a hot surface to avoid getting soggy. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2010, 10:35:31 AM »
Tranman,

This is another hotsawce ideas I tried with good results, but wanted to try something different with IDY added to see if I could get close to the Ultra-thin shells.  If you look down though that thread there is a formula I used.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10703.msg95218.html#msg95218

Here are a few more formulas for a flatbread pizza, which I think would be something like a ultra-thin shell. There are so many ideas, but I think some of their yeast amounts are off.

Olive Oil Pizza Dough and Flatbread

1 tablespoon sugar
1 cup warm water (110 degrees)
1 package active dry yeast
3 cups flour
3/4 teaspoon salt
1/4 cup olive oil
extra flour as needed

http://www.recipezaar.com/recipe/Flatbread-220937

This is something like the kind of crust I want to be able to create in looks, but I have never tasted them, only the ultra-thins in New York.

http://frozen.cpk.com/FO-FBM-chicken-bacon-club.html

Looking for what kind of results you will achieve.  :)

Norma
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Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2010, 11:16:20 AM »
Hey!  I have already made this pizza!  I called it a mistake though  :-D .
I really don't know how the nutritional data equates to ingredients but since I was already messing with the dough calculator for today's dough I plugged in some numbers for this one.
The yeast and hydration is just a guess but the other ingredients match up fairly well to the nutritional data for the 12 inch original.  I used the 12 inch as the nutritional data was for a serving size equal to the whole shell.  For some reason the data shown on other sizes are for serving sizes diff from the product size.

Flour (100%):    96.31 g  |  3.4 oz | 0.21 lbs
Water (55%):    52.97 g  |  1.87 oz | 0.12 lbs
IDY (0.25%):    0.24 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
Salt (0.55%):    0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.11 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
Canola Oil (5.1%):    4.91 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    0.96 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Total (161.9%):   155.93 g | 5.5 oz | 0.34 lbs | TF = N/A

Again, no clue if this means anything.
I did notice that some of the usual vitamins listed on labels for typical enriched US flours are missing.  Not sure what that might indicate.
Well if I have another mistake tomorrow I will be sure to post it!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2010, 11:21:24 AM »
Thanks Norma for the links, I'll have to read through it late b/c right now I'm in the mist of mixing up a batch of emergency dough for the Ultra thin.  I'm doing this one by completely by eyeball ingredients and feel.   :-D  hehe how exciting!!

Hog, you don't happen to have a pic of that accident pie do you?  I'd like to see how thin it is. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2010, 11:31:31 AM »
Hey!  I have already made this pizza!  I called it a mistake though  :-D .
I really don't know how the nutritional data equates to ingredients but since I was already messing with the dough calculator for today's dough I plugged in some numbers for this one.
The yeast and hydration is just a guess but the other ingredients match up fairly well to the nutritional data for the 12 inch original.  I used the 12 inch as the nutritional data was for a serving size equal to the whole shell.  For some reason the data shown on other sizes are for serving sizes diff from the product size.

Flour (100%):    96.31 g  |  3.4 oz | 0.21 lbs
Water (55%):    52.97 g  |  1.87 oz | 0.12 lbs
IDY (0.25%):    0.24 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
Salt (0.55%):    0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.11 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
Canola Oil (5.1%):    4.91 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    0.96 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Total (161.9%):   155.93 g | 5.5 oz | 0.34 lbs | TF = N/A

Again, no clue if this means anything.
I did notice that some of the usual vitamins listed on labels for typical enriched US flours are missing.  Not sure what that might indicate.
Well if I have another mistake tomorrow I will be sure to post it!


Hog,

Why did you call this pizza a mistake?  Was it too thin and crispy for your taste?  Thanks for giving me a formula to start with.  I was playing around the the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at www.foodsim.com and I am having trouble with converting small volumes.  I don't know what I am doing wrong, but have never used this before.

For the other recipe I just posted, I think I am going to try that out.  I am not good on figuring out the nutritional data.  

What I got so far is:  ::)

3 cups flour = 375.47 g  13.244 oz.
1 cup water = 236.59 g    8.345 oz.
1 tablespoon sugar= 12.1912 g  0.43 oz.
I will just use the 1/4 cup olive oil and the volume measurements for the salt and yeast.

I hope you also post your results in what happens with your formula.  :)  If mine works out or not, I will post the results.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 11:33:57 AM »
Thanks Norma for the links, I'll have to read through it late b/c right now I'm in the mist of mixing up a batch of emergency dough for the Ultra thin.  I'm doing this one by completely by eyeball ingredients and feel.   :-D  hehe how exciting!!

Hog, you don't happen to have a pic of that accident pie do you?  I'd like to see how thin it is. 

Tranman,

Maybe you, Hog and myself will get some new ideas for really thin pizzas..LOL  :-D  Could be fun!

Norma
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Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 11:34:35 AM »
Quote
Hog, you don't happen to have a pic of that accident pie do you?  I'd like to see how thin it is.  
Just took a peek and don't think so, course I don't photo every pie and often delete those I do.  This one looks pretty thin but no side shots.  The second photo looks to be pretty darn thin in the center only, must have been a stretching boo boo.



Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 11:38:17 AM »
Just took a peek and don't think so, course I don't photo every pie and often delete those I do.  This one looks pretty thin but no side shots.  The second photo looks to be pretty darn thin in the center only, must have been a stretching boo boo.



Hog,

Your pie does look darn thin.  :D I am going to use KAAP flour and try to roll the dough as thin as my rolling pin will let me.  Who knows what will happen.   ::)

Thanks for showing your photos,

Norma
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Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2010, 11:49:42 AM »
Quote
Hog,

Why did you call this pizza a mistake?  Was it too thin and crispy for your taste?
Cause I have never intentionally tried to make an ultra thin Norma, it just happened when I was trying to learn to make a decent NY style.  In fact, more than once as I recall.  Can't remember out of those hundred or so pies what might have happened since I was all over the map with everything I was learning and trying.
I may just try and stretch the heck out of a ball tomorrow from today's batch if the dough seems cooperative enough and see what happens.
  

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 11:50:53 AM »
my first pies where always that thin in the center.  Actually thin enough to allow light through after baking.  I like to take pizza upskirt shots and back then I would notice some light glowing through.   funny how I had to work to avoid getting it that thin and now I'm going to try and get it that thin.  

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 12:04:09 PM »
Cause I have never intentionally tried to make an ultra thin Norma, it just happened when I was trying to learn to make a decent NY style.  In fact, more than once as I recall.  Can't remember out of those hundred or so pies what might have happened since I was all over the map with everything I was learning and trying.
I may just try and stretch the heck out of a ball tomorrow from today's batch if the dough seems cooperative enough and see what happens.
  

Hog,

Thanks for explaining how you arrived at your thin pizza.  I know I have also tried different pies and also got different results.  ;D

Go ahead and stretch or roll the heck out of your dough and see what happens.  Should be interesting.   ;D

Thanks again,

Norma
my first pies where always that thin in the center.  Actually thin enough to allow light through after baking.  I like to take pizza upskirt shots and back then I would notice some light glowing through.   funny how I had to work to avoid getting it that thin and now I'm going to try and get it that thin.  

Tranman,

Yes, it is funny you are going to experiment and try and get your dough thin now.   :-D  I always enjoy hearing about your experiments.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2010, 12:33:54 PM »
Thanks Norma,  with your post and HS post going and me baking this afternoon anyway, I decided to mix up a batch of dough.  These are 105gm a piece.  I plan on trying to stretch these out to 8-10" if possible.

Basically going for as thin as I can get it without tearing the dough NY pizza.

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2010, 01:08:30 PM »
Thanks Norma,  with your post and HS post going and me baking this afternoon anyway, I decided to mix up a batch of dough.  These are 105gm a piece.  I plan on trying to stretch these out to 8-10" if possible.

Basically going for as thin as I can get it without tearing the dough NY pizza.

Tranman,

Your dough looks nice.  Am anxious to hear what kind of results you will get.  ;D

I also just mixed up a dough ball using the formula I just posted.  I measured out the ingredients, sifted the flour and mixed in my food processor.  I used less ADY and reduced the amount of sugar, because I really don't like too much sugar in my dough.  I don't know if I will make the pizza today or tomorrow.  I will watch the dough ball.   8)

I would have made another Mack's pizza this weekend, but am trying to decide what kind of mild white cheddar to try next.   ::)

Here is a picture of my dough ball.  My dough was sticky, but I could manage it.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2010, 01:16:11 PM »
How much ADY did you use?  I used 1/4 tsp of ADY and 15 gm of starter (about 1 Tbs) for the batch above (213gm dough final weight). I'm going to rush proof it and hopefully don't overshoot it LOL.

I know it's alot of yeast but I wanted the dough ready in about 3 hours. :)

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2010, 01:30:38 PM »
How much ADY did you use? 

Tranman,

I used 1/8 tsp. of ADY.  I am now cold fermenting the dough.  I probably didn't convert the ingredients right, but did measure the flour and water on the scale.  In my opinion the dough I made today is going to be a high hydration and a high oil dough.  I really don't know how the Ultra-Thin Company makes their dough, but just wanted to try something.  I might go to another formula.  When I was making the Bittmans' cracker style dough, the pizza was crispy, but not like the pizzas I ate at the New York Restaurant Food Show and Pizza Expo.  They had an altogether different flavor in the crust.  Who knows if I will ever get this right, but it is something to experiment with.  I did roll out the dough before for the Bittman's cracker style, so that is what I am going to do again.  I also baked different ways, but I am going to try this dough in a deep-dish pan.  I liked the results, when I baked in that kind of pan. 

Best of luck to you in your experiment,

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2010, 03:07:45 PM »
Norma,

I don't like groping around in the dark. So, I'd like to suggest the way that I think I would approach what you are trying to do. We are talking here about a fairly simple product, a par-baked crust without anything on it. We know the weight of the product (8.5 ounces), its size (14"), and we also have some nutrition data (more on this later). We know how much sodium there is in a sample size (8 ounces) and we know how much total fat and saturated fat there is in that sample. However, before I would start making a dough that might pass muster, and before trying to come up with a dough formulation, my first line of attack would be to call the company. As a professional in your case, and one who might possibly consider using the company's product, I don't think it would be out of line for you to want to know what is in the product, including type of flour (which relates to taste and texture), whether the flour is bromated or not (for health reasons), and the type of fat used in the product (mainly for taste reasons). I would perhaps also ask why a sample size (8 ounces) is less than the 8.5 ounces that is given as the weight of a 14" par-baked crust. Next, depending on what I learned, I might ask if it is possible to get some samples to try out (and to examine more closely for clues).

Looking at some of the nutrition data at the Ultra-Thin website, I think it is safe to say that the product you are considering does not contain animal fats or shortening. I believe they are using an oil of some sort. Examples of oils that meet the 7 grams of total fat and 1 gram of saturated fat include olive oil and soybean oil, but no doubt there are other oils with the same lipid profile. If you do some research at the nutrition data website at http://www.nutritiondata.com/, you should be able to find them. I would look at the one tablespoon values since they are more likely to apply to the weight of a typical 14" par-baked crust. FYI, for a lipid profile of 7 grams of total fat and one gram of saturated fat, it appears that we are talking about 1 1/2 teaspoons of oil for an 8 ounce sample of the product in question. However, that 8-ounce sample is apparently on a par-baked basis, not raw dough. There is some loss during baking but I would be surprised if it is more than say, 5%. So, in arriving at a baker's percent, I would adjust the weight of the sample before calculating the baker's percent.

In a similar vein, there is 750 mg of sodium in an 8-ounce sample. There is a very small amount of sodium in flour and in oils in large quantities, but I believe the bulk of the sodium is from added salt. 770 mg of sodium represents about a third of a teaspoon of table salt. That value might enable you to calculate the baker's percent on the "adjusted" weight of the par-baked product (that is, adjusted to compensate for losses during baking).

It is also possible that there is some added sugar in the product under consideration. There may be some sugar in the flour or released by enzymes or transformed during baking, so it is hard to say how much without doing more research. Or maybe the company can tell you if there is any sugar in the dough (which could be a legitimate concern for those on low-glycemic diets).

There are still some missing items, like the hydration and amount of yeast and the nature of the fermentation, but I would rather address these issues after I gather the information from trying the other approaches mentioned above.

For your additional information, if we assume that an 8-ounce sample loses 5% during baking, an unbaked sample would weigh 8.4 ounces. For a 14" dough skin, the corresponding thickness factor would be 8.4/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.05457. It might be worth weighing a 14" skin both unbaked and par-baked to ascertain more accurately the extent of the weight loss. Then, one might be able to come up with a set of baker's percents to use in future iterations.

Peter


Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2010, 03:52:02 PM »
Let them eat pizza.