Author Topic: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?  (Read 46034 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #200 on: June 21, 2010, 06:38:52 PM »
Before committing further on the yeast quantity, I would like to see what is typical in the way of amounts of vitamins used to supplement flours.

Norma,

I took a look at how much vitamin and iron enrichment General Mills uses in a random sampling of its spring and winter wheat flours. The enrichment package, less folic acid (more on this below), is 10.74 mg/100g of flour. In the last dough formulation I posted, at Reply 191 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101772.html#msg101772, the amount of the enrichment package for 173.23 grams of flour would be 18.61 mg, or 0.01861 grams. That is a baker's percent of 0.010743%. A quantity of IDY less than that (since it is last in the ingredients list) would be negligible. It would only begin to take on meaning if one were to make hundreds of pounds of dough. The yeast could also be in the wrong part of the Ultra-Thin ingredients list. Their sloppiness in setting forth the ingredients list does not give me a lot of confidence.

I also note that the Ultra-Thin ingredients list does not include folic acid. Folic acid became a part of standard enrichment packages for flour in 1997 because of its efficacy in reducing birth defects and other medical conditions. From what I can tell, all of the General Mills and King Arthur "white" flours have folic acid. Since their whole wheat flours are natural and not refined, they do not need or include any enrichment package. Likewise with the GM unenriched flours. The absence of folic acid in the Ultra-Thin ingredients list leads me to believe that the list is not current.

Peter


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #201 on: June 21, 2010, 07:26:04 PM »
Peter,

I also would like to proceed with this project. 
                        
I found the New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation you did interesting with the use of baking soda.  The Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style you referenced was also interesting. The ďdead yeastĒ is something I never heard of before, but will stayed tuned to what you find out.

I can see the need to use a proofing box for this Ultra-Thin Shell. 

Your research on the vitamin and iron enrichment and Folic Acid in flour is something else I never knew about. 

I donít believe The Ultra-Thin Company is accurate or forthcoming in many of their statements or ingredients list.  Since I have dealt with them, I am questioning many things.

I am happy you can figure out all this information. I think from the heat today at market, my mind has turned to mush. I just keep reading and my mind just doesn't want to let all this information sink in. I usually have a lot to post, but will think over all you have posted.

Thank you for all the research you are doing,

Norma 
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #202 on: June 21, 2010, 08:56:03 PM »
Norma,

Out of curiosity, were you able to detect the flavor of whole wheat flour in the Ultra-Thin par-baked crusts, or notice anything else, like color or texture, that might suggest the use of whole wheat flour in the dough? The All-Trumps you have been using has a protein content that is similar to whole wheat flour. So, I think a blend of the two types of flour would be more for the added flavor and color and maybe texture that the whole wheat flour would bring to the blend. Of course, if the whole wheat flour is used sparingly, you might not be able to detect its presence in the final crust. Do you have any whole wheat flour on hand and, if so, what brand?

Also, can you tell me what types and brands of bleached white flours you have on hand, whether bromated or not?

I will also be interested in whether you detect the flavor of garlic when you next sample an Ultra-Thin crust.

Peter


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #203 on: June 21, 2010, 10:15:14 PM »
Peter,

I just removed a slice of the Ultra-Thin Crust from the freezer.  I included two pictures below of the slices in the freezer bag, wrapped in plastic wrap.  I only had the slice out for a minute and the slice is already defrosted.  I canít detect any taste of garlic in the slice. There isnít any taste of whole wheat either, in my opinion. I just ate a whole slice raw.  I donít know how you could tell by the texture, if whole wheat flour is used.  Could you give me any ideas on how to determine that?  The par-baked crust just tastes bland to me and partly gummy when chewing it.  It still tastes like plain pie dough to me. When tasting some of the doughs I have made, this tastes nothing like them. Maybe since the shells are par-baked, they would taste different than other doughs. I donít know about what a par-baked crust should taste like. I have never tried one before.  I still think Ultra-Thin isnít being truthful in saying what is in the ingredients.

The flours I have on hand are KASL, Kyrol, Pillsbury Balancer, KAAP, KABF, Durum Flour, Pie and Pastry Flour, Durum Patent Flour, Stone Ground Rye Flour (Hodgson Mill) and Whole Wheat Flour.  The Kyrol and Pillsbury Balancer are the only two flours that are bleached and bromated. 

Sorry I couldnít post more in my last post, but when I am busy running around picking up sodas and going to market on a hot day, carrying things in and putting them away, making dough, filling napkins dispensers and all the others things that are needed for tomorrow, it can take its toll on a person.  My mind is not mush anymore since I am in the air-conditioning.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #204 on: June 22, 2010, 10:30:13 AM »
I donít know how you could tell by the texture, if whole wheat flour is used.  Could you give me any ideas on how to determine that? 

Norma,

My thinking is that since whole wheat flour includes everything, such as the bran and germ (that represent about 17% of the whole wheat kernel), those components might alter the texture of the crust and be detectable in some way, as on the palate or by color. However, if only a small amount of whole wheat flour is used, you might not be able to tell. If whole wheat is in fact in the dough and you couldn't detect it, then that would suggest that only a small amount of whole wheat is used.

Based on the positioning of the garlic in the ingredients list, right after the salt, I would have expected that you would have been able to detect it in the crust, especially since you ate the crust without anything on it to compete with the flavors of the crust. The use of garlic in a par-baked crust would not be unusual. I haven't looked at a Boboli ingredients list lately, and haven't sampled a Boboli crust in ages, but a few years ago I did and saw that garlic was on the list, at the bottom, as I noted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2841.msg24484/topicseen.html#msg24484.

I am beginning to suspect that the ingredients list you got from Ultra-Thin is not current. Also, unless they are required by law to have an ingredients list, in which case it would have to comply with the rules and regulations regarding its content, the Ultra-Thin ingredients list could contain errors (beyond typographical) and not be afoul of the law. 

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #205 on: June 22, 2010, 01:38:42 PM »
Norma,

I did some more digging on what entities are exempted from providing nutrition information and related listing of ingredients and it appears that the relevant FDA provisions are given under the section Nutrient Declaration at http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/GuidanceDocuments/FoodLabelingNutrition/FoodLabelingGuide/ucm064894.htm. I also read elsewhere that compliance with these matters is typically at the state level since the federal government has not allocated funds for this purpose. However, enforcement at the state level appears to be lax, with few states even having employees dedicated to enforcement. Some apparently have programs for educating companies on the rules but no active enforcement. Looking at the FDA exemptions, I would say that Ultra-Thin is exempt from Nutrition Facts labeling.

I do not believe that displaying Nutrition Facts at the Ultra-Thin website, as opposed to on a product itself, requires them to disclose ingredients. I believe they would be required to provide ingredients information if they made nutrition claims.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #206 on: June 22, 2010, 04:56:41 PM »
The fact that the yeast shows up at the bottom of the list tells us that they are not using much of it, most likely because they are using baking soda as a leavening agent (and maybe for flavor) in addition to the yeast. Moreover, if the yeast is used in less quantity than the listed iron, B vitamins and the enzyme, it would be a very small amount indeed. It might even be deactivated yeast (dead yeast) although I do not know what typical quantities would be used from a baker's percent standpoint.

Norma,

Today I called and had a nice chat with a yeast specialist who works on the professionals side of SAF, the yeast producer. My interest was in the use of dead yeast, either as a dough relaxant or for flavor purposes. As it turns out, SAF sells products for both applications. The first is a dead yeast used as a dough relaxant, with a typical use of 0.1-0.3% of the formula flour. That product is one that can be used to make skins as we have been discussing because it improves machinability (die cutting) of sheeted doughs by relaxing the dough to reduce shrinkage. The second dead yeast product, for flavor enhancement, is used at a rate of 0.5-1.5% of the formula flour. As I mentioned in Reply 200 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101799.html#msg101799, I estimated a use of yeast at levels considerably below either of the above ranges (0.010743%). I suppose it is possible that the yeast Ultra-Thin is using is dead yeast (the FDA allows labeling dead yeast as "yeast" even though it is dead), even at very low levels, but it could also be that the yeast is out of order in their ingredients list.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #207 on: June 22, 2010, 10:05:29 PM »
Peter,

I gave Steve a piece of raw crust today to taste.  He said after sampling a part of a slice, that he could detect garlic in the taste, although it was slight.  I still canít detect the garlic. He also said the raw shell tasted like pie dough and was gummy.  I made one pizza today with the Ultra-Thin Shells, before Steve came and after he came today we made another pizza with another Ultra-Thin Shell.  I will post the pictures and tell about the pizzas when I upload the pictures and post about both of them.

I possibly think that FDA and State level rules are all confusing.  When we had our Caramel Corn and Clear Toy Candy stand we were required by the food inspectors to have a label on our clear toy candy and brittles, with our business name, and list of ingredients in order. There were heat sealed in a cellophane bag. When it came to the Caramel Popcorn, which we made fresh at market, and put in a plastic bag, shortly after making it, we didnít have to have a label on it.  The food inspectors said because you could see though the plastic bag and it was made fresh at market, no labels were required. When we sold some of our sugar popcorn to stores we were then required to have labels on them. We popped the popcorn for the caramel corn at our food approved shed at home. I never could figure that one out. The only condition for the popcorn used for the caramel corn, was it had to be in a food approved bag. We also made the clear toy candy at our food approved shed at home.  It is all confusing.  This was only on our State level, and we were a small business.  I can see there isnít enough enforcement on many levels.

Thanks for having a chat with a yeast specialist.  It is interesting there are two kinds of ďdead yeastĒ and they have different applications.  I now wonder which dead yeast they might be using.  When Steve and I tasted the crust today, the crust didnít have much flavor.  It still was bland.  I donít know, but would be inclined to think they might use the dead yeast for a dough relaxant.  In most doughs I have tried you can taste at least some flavor in the finished crust..  I gave Steve two par-baked crusts to try at home.  It will be interesting to see what his family thinks of them after Steve makes the pizzas.  It would make more sense to me if the baking soda helps the crust to rise or might add to flavor. Even when trying the Bitmannís crust with no yeast, the crust still had a better flavor than the Ultra-Thin parbaked crust we tried today.  I donít know if possibly the shipped shells I purchased were older or if the defrosted shells that I received and then were frozen again had any thing to do with the taste of the crusts.  To me they didnít taste anything like I had tried in NY.  Just bland crusts.  I think if we can ever get it right how to make these par-baked crusts at home, ours will taste better.

Thanks for doing all the investigating you are doing,

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #208 on: June 22, 2010, 11:09:42 PM »
Two more real Ultra-Thin crusts were tried today.  The first pie was just baked with toppings to see how it would bake in the deck oven at market.  The crust didnít get dry like the last crust I had tried at home. I donít think the crust had a crisp enough texture though.

Steve and I tried another real Ultra-Thin pizza today, with a real Ultra-Thin crust.  We weighed the par-baked shell.  It weighed 7.4 oz.  That doesnít seem to fit into what a 14" par-baked crust should weigh.  We weighed it twice.  The toppings we used were only cheese and sauce.  The sauce weighed 5.5 oz and the cheese weighed 5.5 oz. We decided to keep it simple for the toppings.  The finished pizza right out of the oven weighed 1 lb 0.3 oz.  These are some of the pictures from the second pie.  I will post pictures from the first pie tomorrow.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #209 on: June 22, 2010, 11:12:24 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #210 on: June 22, 2010, 11:13:58 PM »
last pictures

Norma
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 11:15:46 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #211 on: June 23, 2010, 08:46:31 AM »
These are the pictures from the first Ultra-Thin pizza I made yesterday using the real 14" Ultra-Thin par-baked shells.  I only wanted to see how the pizza would bake in the deck oven at market, because I was curious about how it would bake there.  The temperature of the oven was 524 degrees F.  The pizza baked in a little over 3 minutes.  When the pizza looked fully baked, I tasted a slice.  Although the pizza tasted good, I donít think it was baked enough for a crisp bottom.  It did have a droop and the bottom wasnít dry.  I was trying to analyze the crust in terms of taste and canít really say any ingredients really popped out, in terms of taste of the crust.

For planning purposes and foresight for anytime I will try another real Ultra-Thin shell in the future, I will weigh the crust before adding the toppings.  I didnít weigh this crust or topping, because I just assumed it would weigh the same as the crust I had weighed at home.  When Steve and I tried the second Ultra-Thin pizza, we did weigh the crust and I can now see there are inconsistencies in the weight from one shell to another.   

When we tried the second pizza, it was a little crisper.  On the one picture I posted last night with me holding the slice it can be seen how the slice droops.  Steve and I decided the pizza still needed to be a little crisper after tasting it.  He then put two slices back into the oven.  Those slices did have a crisp texture when tasting it.  I think, but am not sure, this is what the crust should be like, when trying to make an Ultra-Thin pizza. Steve is holding one of the slices that were put back into the oven. It is the picture with a metal spatula and the slice on it. 

In a side note about FDA and State regulations, I still have some stickers that we needed to apply to our clear toy candy, heat sealed in cellophane bags. I blacked out our name and address, when these stickers were made, we needed to have our home address where the candy was made for state regulations and the food safety code.  I copied these with my scanner on my printer.  These rolls of stickers came in 5,000 stickers in a box, 1,000 stickers to a roll.  I just took off a few stickers to show what they look like.  It shows that even a small business has to comply with some regulations. Last picture is of the labels. They are a shiny gold, but the scanner doesnít copy the true colors.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:54:49 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #212 on: June 23, 2010, 08:52:16 AM »
pictures

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #213 on: June 23, 2010, 10:18:00 AM »
Norma,

Based on what we know to date, I would say that it is inconclusive as to what kind of yeast is used to make Ultra-Thin skins and in what quantity. However, in defense of the ingredients list you got from Ultra-Thin, it does look like a real ingredients list that someone in the know put together, despite the sloppiness. If the yeast is in the right place in the ingredients list, after the enrichment package, then its quantity would be minuscule, whether dead or alive. As I noted previously, maybe you start to get bigger numbers when you make hundreds of pounds of dough.

At this point, I think that there are a couple or a few ways for you to proceed. You can try the last formulation I gave you simply to test whether it is possible to make a flexible, rubbery par-baked crust in a home oven setting using the pans and the like that you have available for that purpose. If you'd like, you can add some garlic powder as a separate and somewhat independent side test on flavor.

As another option, you can also leapfrog over those versions of the formulation (if you don't mind leapfrogging this early in the morning) and try one that includes baking soda and garlic powder, maybe with a very small pinch of IDY. There is a practical limit on the amount of baking soda and garlic powder when used in a dough. For example, if there is too much baking soda, it can impart a flavor profile to the finished crust that is distinctive and you may not like, as I discovered when I used baking soda at around 0.50%. Since you previously indicated that the Ultra-Thin crust had a different taste than anything you had tasted before, possibly the flavor was due to the baking soda. With respect to the garlic powder, too much of it in the dough can have a relaxant effect and make the dough too soft. It even occurred to me from the positioning of the garlic powder in the ingredients list that Ultra-Thin may be using more garlic powder than normal simply to make the dough softer and, therefore, more machinable, much like dead yeast has a similar effect. However, if such were the case I would think that you or Steve would have detected high levels of the garlic powder. 

As somewhat an aside, when I spoke with the SAF yeast specialist yesterday, she mentioned that an alternative to dead yeast is to use L-cysteine, which is a dough relaxant that is found in PZ-44. However, she added that some users do not like to use that form of relaxant because it is made from human hair and chicken and duck feathers. Apparently, the best hair comes from Asian countries. I guess the idea of using something in a food product made from human hair or feathers is enough of a turnoff to lead them to use dead yeast instead.

FYI, dead yeast comes in bags weighing around 50 pounds. However, I am sure that as a professional you can get sample quantities to experiment with.

If you would like to know more about the effects of garlic powder in a dough, you might take a look at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9698.msg85561/topicseen.html#msg85561 and the links referenced in that post.

Let me know how you would like to proceed and I will assist you as best I can.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 10:42:17 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #214 on: June 23, 2010, 12:07:17 PM »
I donít know if the ingredient list is in order or not, but must be somewhat accurate, with the list of ingredients, since people with food allergies or medical conditions could be harmed, if they would try a product with ingredients that werenít suited for them.

Do you mean to try the last formula you set-forth at reply #187 and add some garlic powder and a small pinch of yeast?   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101738.html#msg101738 or are you going to set-forth a new formula with the garlic powder and small pinch of yeast added.  I donít mind leapfrogging any time in the day.  I would like to be as authentic as possible in trying to recreate this Ultra-Thin par-baked shell. 

I brought my 2 aluminum 14" cutter pans home and if the weather gets cooler here in the next few days, I will try an attempt at making the clone Ultra-Thin par-baked crusts.  Do you also have any idea of what oven temperature I should try in just trying to gelatinize the starch in the dough and maybe a rack position?  I do have a thermometer at home and could check to see when the temperature of the shell would be about 185 degree F.  I am  thinking along the lines of the process you provided at
Reply # 193.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101774.html#msg101774

When I tried my last attempt at home with the smaller formula, I could see how that could work out, but am not sure.  That time I baked at a higher temperatures and in my opinion I baked too long, because the crust was too hard.  The crust didnít rise and it kept its slightly  white appearance.  I donít know, but was just thinking about what I did that time.

I did tell Steve yesterday that the ingredient list did say it had garlic in the shell, but didnít tell him there was baking soda added. I had noticed after eating the raw crust it left a slightly bitter taste in my mouth.  I then told Steve after he ate a small raw slice.  He said he didnít notice the bitter taste.  We all have different taste buds, so this can be confusing also.  He said he had never tasted baking soda. I have tasted baking soda different times. I have noticed when baking different baked items, if too much baking soda is added it can impart a bitter taste.  I think I will have to taste some more raw dough. 

For me being a professional, I am only a part-time pizza professional, with limited pizza knowledge. You are far more a professional than I am. It makes me wonder how long you have been studying pizza and being able to put all these ideas into use.  I have only been studying pizza for a short while and I find all the knowledge amazing.  I would never have thought so much can go into pizza making or par-baking a crust for that matter.  I think Tom Lehmann posted that someone in the pizza business can get a small sample to try of the dead yeast.

I find it interesting that Tom Lehmann said to add the garlic powder or granulated garlic during the last 2-3 minutes of mixing or the dough might get unacceptably soft dough characteristics. Maybe the added garlic could help to make this Ultra-Thin dough softer. 

I never knew that L-cysteine, was made from human hair and chicken and duck feathers.   I think if anyone knew that, it would be a turn off for even trying the pizza.  Thanks for that information.  I will store it away in my brain, somewhere.  That was interesting.

I would like to proceed with trying some garlic and a small amount of yeast if you can get all this figured out.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #215 on: June 23, 2010, 01:16:31 PM »
Norma,

I was thinking of the last dough formulation (the 14"/13" example) I set forth at Reply 191 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101772.html#msg101772 but using olive oil instead of vegetable oil and, if you want to do a garlic powder taste test, some garlic powder. I wasn't thinking of reducing the yeast because I wasn't sure of the accuracy of the Ultra-Thin ingredients list and whether the yeast is in the correct place. But I can give you anything you want. For example, I should be able to give you a dough formulation using the All Trumps flour (we can later consider how to use whole wheat flour if it comes to that), water, olive oil, salt, garlic powder, baking soda and yeast. That's a more involved dough formulation because of the greater number of ingredients involved and the need to come up with baker's percent values for the garlic powder, the baking soda, and the yeast (IDY). If the values are not the correct ones, it's not clear what the effects will be on the finished par-baked crust and, in particular, whether you will even get a functioning skin from the standpoint of being flexible and rubber-like. 

As far as baking the test skin is concerned, in my electric oven I think I would put the cutter pan assembly at the middle oven rack position in an effort to keep the bake of the top and bottom of the skin in balance as much as possible. It will take some time for the pan assembly to reach the temperature at which you would want to bake the skin so some time will have to be allowed for that. This is one of those areas where you will have to do some experimentation to determine how long it takes for the pan assembly to get to the correct temperature before the skin starts to bake. I would perhaps start checking the status of the skin at around 160 degrees F and monitor it thereafter to see if you get the desired results. You don't want the crust to get stiff like a very thin cracker so you may find yourself having to check the skin frequently, even at the risk of having to open and close the oven door several times to do the checks. As you can see, you will be contending with and trying to balance different sets of variables, including the dough formulation, the method (e.g., pan assembly) used to bake the skin, and the oven protocol (rack position, temperature and bake duration). Rarely will you be so lucky to get everything right the first time out.

I will await your decision on the dough formulation you would like to start with.

Peter




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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #216 on: June 23, 2010, 04:37:08 PM »
Peter,

If you can try to figure out a dough formula using, Kyrol flour (which is all I have here at home, which is bleached and bromated) or some Pillsbury Balancer (which is about a year old and is at market and is bleached and bromated)(I donít have any All Trumps at my disposal at this moment), water, olive oil (I only have Fillippo Berio Olive Oil, salt, (you can choose regular table salt, Mortonís Kosher salt, or sea salt), baking soda,(I have Arm and Hammer), garlic powder, and IDY, I would like to proceed with those ingredients. I will be using the 14"/13" aluminum cutter pans for this attempt.

Your ideas are good for the reasons to bake on the middle rack position so the bake is more in balance with the cutter pans on both sides of the assembly.  I have my IR thermometer at home so I can take the temperatures of both aluminum pans in the assembly to see when they reached about 170 or more degrees F and then I could start monitoring how the crusts are baking from there.  In my last attempt, I did monitor the crusts between both pans frequently with a knife to open the two pans at different points, but hadnít seen the real Ultra-Thin shells at that time, so I wasnít sure how they were supposed to look. 

I can see how all these variables might cause problems.  I never expected to get this all right for the first attempt.  I think there will need to be many experiments with trying to get something like a real Ultra-Thin par-baked crust.  Since I have really seen what they look like, they fascinate me more, on how they can achieve a product like them.

I will compare how this project might be like the Celtic Fling & Highland Games they are starting this week at our local Pa. Renaissance Faire.  If it doesnít stay so hot in our area, I want to attend that this weekend. As in my past projects or attempts at different doughs, I usually have fun comparing them to something, to keep me entertained. http://www.parenfaire.com/celticgames.html

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #217 on: June 23, 2010, 06:55:05 PM »
Peter and others that might be following this thread.  I was just at our local grocery store to purchase some items to make sorbet and for groceries to make dinner.  I was thinking along the lines of soft tacos, using soft tortilla shells.  I wanted to make these tacos different and had purchased some pizza sausage.  The local grocery store makes the pizza sausage with tomato sauce, mozzarella, sun-dried tomatoes and spices. Our local grocery store does make many kinds of sausage and they have a fresh meat department where they cut their own meat. I then went to purchase some soft tortilla shells.  I saw some small tortilla shells from Chi Chiís were on sale.  I looked at the ingredient data and the last ingredient listed was L- cysteine.  I quickly put them back.  When I got home I looked under Chi Chiís website and looked for the tortillas I was going to purchase.  I canít find that they had the same ingredients listed, that I saw at our local grocery store, but saw they had Monocalcium Phosphate listed as an ingredient.  http://www.chichis.com/products/?product-line=tortillas-and-chips  I Googled  it and this is what it said.  If you go down on the page you can see how Monocalcium phospahte is used as a Leavening agent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocalcium_phosphate

http://dwb4.unl.edu/Chem/CHEM869R/CHEM869RLinks/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm 

I just posted my experiences in looking at nutritional data more closely.  I donít think I will ever purchase another product with L-Cysteine in the ingredient list, after what I found out by Peterís post from talking to the yeast specialist, what that is made from.  I now makes me wonder how many food products there are on grocery shelves with ingredients we donít understand.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #218 on: June 23, 2010, 07:01:50 PM »
Norma,

I went back to the drawing board again and re-did all of the numbers to reflect the use of baking soda and garlic powder. The main reason I found it necessary to do this was because baking soda contains a fair amount of sodium. That made it necessary to adjust the amount of salt (table salt) to add to the dough. In the dough formulation presented below, you will see that the baker's percent for the salt went down as a result.

I based all of my calculations on the All Trumps flour. However, I believe that the Kyrol or Pillsbury Balancer bromated/bleached flours should be similar. I had no choice on this because I have never seen the detailed specs for those two flours. In the dough formulation presented below, you will note that I added IDY in a percent reflecting its appearance dead last in the list of ingredients that you got from Ultra-Thin. You will see that the IDY is extremely small, about 1/100th teaspoon. That amount is a bit more than about half of a "drop" measuring spoon as shown at Reply at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. It's hard to imagine that that small amount of yeast would have any effect on the dough, at least independently of the baking soda. I have worked before with small amounts of yeast and one would have to ferment the dough at a fairly high room temperature for a considerable time for the yeast to contribute meaningfully to the fermentation process, and that is for a dough with a hydration considerably more than the approximately 41% hydration number shown below.

As I learned yesterday from SAF, dead yeast is a potent ingredient and only a little is required, so it's possible that dead yeast is intended. If we assume that the yeast in the ingredients list is dead yeast, omitting it should not be a problem because its purpose is to relax the dough and aid in machining the dough to form skins, which is not a problem that you should experience when you are using a rolling pin to roll out the dough and a template of some sort to cut a 13" skin out of the starting 14" skin. 

For the garlic powder and baking soda, I used my best judgment on the amounts to use based on past experience and what I have read on their use. I could be wrong on both counts inasmuch as I do not know of any way to determine their actual amounts from Nutrition Facts alone. The garlic powder is used in greater quantity than the baking soda because it appears ahead of the baking soda in the Ultra-Thin ingredients list. In using these ingredients, you will want to note their flavor profile, as well as any effect the garlic powder might have on the dough, if any. In the dough formulation below, I recited the garlic powder by name. That ingredient is not in the ingredients list of the expanded dough calculating tool. I had to usurp one of the other entries to be able to use the tool, which necessitated other changes in the formulation below.

As you may recall, I assumed a loss of weight of about 5% during baking. You will want to note the before and after weights so that we can revise the numbers if the 5% figure is incorrect. The thickness factor I originally calculated was based on the 5% figure. So, you may want to note any differences between the thickness of the clone crust and one of the Ultra-Thin crusts. Remember, also, that you want the 13" skin that you cut out of the 14" skin to weigh 3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5 x 0.057978 = 7.70 ounces, or 218.17 grams. Those numbers are a bit less than for a 14" skin because you will be fitting a 13" skin in your cutter pan assembly.

Here is the dough formulation I devised using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, reflecting the above discussion:

Flour* (100%):
Water (40.8412%):
IDY (0.011%):
Salt (0.9273%):
Olive Oil (3.27115%):
Baking Soda (0.35%):
Garlic Powder (0.40%):
Total (145.80065%):
173.54 g  |  6.12 oz | 0.38 lbs
70.88 g  |  2.5 oz | 0.16 lbs
0.02 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.01 tsp | 0 tbsp
1.61 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
5.68 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
0.61 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
0.69 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
253.02 g | 8.93 oz | 0.56 lbs | TF = 0.057978
*Kyrol or Pillsbury Balancer bromated/bleached high-gluten flour
Note: Dough is for a single dough ball to make a 14" skin from which a 13" skin is cut; thickness factor = 0.057978; no bowl residue compensation

Peter



 

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #219 on: June 23, 2010, 07:27:59 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for going back to the drawing board, again.  I didnít relate to baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) having salt, but that makes sense because sodium is salt.  I just tasted a couple of grains and it is salty.  I always thought it was just used to make baked products rise.  I just thought it had its own unique taste.

I can see the IDY is really a small amount.  I will have to think about how I will measure that, because I donít have the drop or small measuring spoons.

I will use my bottom of my cutter pan to measure when rolling out the dough and will have to also think about finally putting a proofing box together, before trying this new formula you set-forth. 

I will also note any changes to the dough or final product taste when trying the garlic powder.  Did you have time to see what the losses in baking were in the pizza Steve and I tried yesterday?
Did we do it right this time? I also will note any changes in the thickness of the clone crust compared to the real Ultra-Thin crusts. I am going to try and do this whole process right this time with proper weights and procedures.  I hope all goes well. 

Thanks you for setting forth a new formula.  I appreciate your time and knowledge,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!