Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?

[norma427]

Nice job woman!     I'm electrically challenged too.   So can anyone explain to me the purpose of a proofing box.  Well I know it allows you to proof at a consistent temp, but what temps are you all proofing at and how long do you typically proof in the box for?

Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying nice job.    I am not sure about all the purposes for a proofing box are, but if the temperatures are cooler, it will help the dough to stay in a more constant temperature.  In this project it will help the dough proof, like they do commercially.  A proofing box will also help to make a starter.  I will let someone else that knows more about proofing boxes answer you question.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

So can anyone explain to me the purpose of a proofing box.  Well I know it allows you to proof at a consistent temp, but what temps are you all proofing at and how long do you typically proof in the box for?

JT,

I originally got the idea of making a proofing box from Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdoughs. I used it for making natural starters and doughs containing such starters. However, a proofing box can also be used to proof or ferment doughs at temperatures in excess of room temperature. It can't be used to cool doughs. In my case, I have found the proofing box most useful in the winter than in the summer. The dough can be in bulk or, if the proofing box is large enough, it can be used to proof skins (e.g., in a pan or on a pizza disk or screen).

One place I found the proofing box to be invaluable was in making cracker-style doughs with very low hydration--in the mid 30s percent. Heating the dough made it immensely easier and quicker to roll out the dough using an ordinary rolling pin. You can read about how that revelation came to me at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138.

Norma plans to use her newly constructed proofing box to proof the dough for her Ultra-Thin clone skins, mainly because we speculate that the real Ultra-Thin skins are proofed at a relatively high temperature, something around 100 degrees F. But, in general, you use the proofing box at whatever temperature is called for by the instructions for the dough you wish to make. I have used my proofing box at temperatures up to about 130 degrees F. Above that, it can become a bit too toasty for the yeast (it will die around 145 degrees F). So, in general, I would say that the range of the proofing box is from about room temperature to around 130 degrees F.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Thank you very much Peter.  It makes a lot more sense now. 

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

On the assumption that you will be using humidity while proofing your dough, I thought that you would get a kick out of my first attempt to use my proofing box with humidity, which I described at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4942.html#msg4942. I remember that post well because I composed it after consuming copious amounts of red wine, to the point where I would have failed a Breathalyzer test. Upon rereading that post tonight, I concluded that I perhaps ought to drink wine more often before composing posts on the forum .

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I did get a laugh out of that post, since you told me you drank copious amounts of red wine.  Maybe I should try the red wine route tomorrow.  My cousin makes all kinds of wine and gave me a lot for Christmas.  At the Celtic Fling and Highland Games today, they had free wine tasting, but it was too hot for me to drink wine.  At least I will be in the air conditioning tomorrow.  It is supposed to get hotter in our area tomorrow, so if I decide to drink too much wine and mess up with something, I guess it will be another failed attempt. 

I have some hotel shower caps, so do you think I should also add humidity with the use of a washcloth or something else inside the container with the dough?

You did well on composing that post.  I don’t think I would do that well, if I drank that much.  Maybe I will get a buzz and see what happens.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I have some hotel shower caps, so do you think I should also add humidity with the use of a washcloth or something else inside the container with the dough?

Norma,

I was thinking more of placing a cup of hot water in the proofing box along with the dough. Hopefully, the water will provide enough humidity to keep the dough from skinning up. I would perhaps check the dough from time to time to see if that happens.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I was thinking more of placing a cup of hot water in the proofing box along with the dough. Hopefully, the water will provide enough humidity to keep the dough from skinning up. I would perhaps check the dough from time to time to see if that happens.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise.  I am anxious to try this par-baked crust tomorrow.  Hopefully too much won't go wrong.  I will check the dough to see if it skins up or not.

Norma

[Matthew]

Matt,

I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.    For an electrically challenged person, like myself, your instructions were perfect.  I can now wire in a series.  I took off all the duct tape and electrical tape and started over again.  When I connected everything up like you told me, I was worried to plug the proofing box in.  I wasn’t worried about your instructions, but worried if the dimmer switch would work.  It worked.  I was so elated, that I was smiling from ear to ear.    I didn’t have to purchase another dimmer switch and the proofing box is now finished. 

I posted pictures of the wiring, so anyone that is electrically challenged like I am, can see how to do the wiring in a series, along with Matt’s instructions.  Even a woman can do it.    I did take other pictures of the light on in the proofing box and the electrical wires taped up.  I even cut duct tape, so my thermometer wouldn’t get the hole any bigger, where I had placed it. 

Lets hear a big round of applause for Matt and helping me learn something new. 

Thanks Matt,

Norma

 
Thanks Norma, as always, my pleasure to help out whenever I can.  I'm glad that it all worked out.

Matt

[norma427]

Matt,

I hope your proofed dough worked out okay yesterday.  I am going to have challenge today with getting all the steps right in trying this Ultra-Thin crust.

Norma

[Matthew]

Matt,

I hope your proofed dough worked out okay yesterday.  I am going to have challenge today with getting all the steps right in trying this Ultra-Thin crust.

Norma

Hey Norma,
It worked out perfectly.  My Neapolitan dough made excellent focaccia much to my surprise.  This picture was taken this morning after being in the fridge all night.  I didn't take any pictures last night because we had guests but the crumb structure was great.

Matt

[norma427]

Hey Norma,
It worked out perfectly.  My Neapolitan dough made excellent focaccia much to my surprise.  This picture was taken this morning after being in the fridge all night.  I didn't take any pictures last night because we had guests but the crumb structure was great.

Matt

The picture of your focaccia looks great.  It always amazes me when trying something new, how something can turn out.  Now you know that you can make focaccia out of your Neapolitan dough. 

I also found that out with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  No need to make separate dough.  I just used mine for almost anything. 

Thanks for posting the picture,

Norma

[norma427]

Things didn’t start out well this morning. I wanted to get this dough started early because I didn’t want my oven on for a long while today, because they are calling for maybe record breaking temperatures for our area.  I plugged in the proofer box and it wouldn’t light.  I tried different receptacles and also took the light out of the proofing box and tried it in a lamp.  The lightbulb did work in another lamp.  I took the wires apart again and put them back together, but still no luck.  I guess I might have partly did something to the dimmer switch, but the light worked many times last night when trying it.  So much for the proofing box today.  I will have to get a new dimmer switch and see what happens.

Not to be deterred again, I decided to go as planned and mix the dough.  I weighed out the ingredients and had some problems, because my scale at home isn’t as accurate as the scale at market.  I had a hard time weighing the baking soda and garlic powder.  For the other ingredients that were small, I just weighed to the nearest gram or oz.  The IDY, I just guessed by looking at amounts in other members small measuring spoons.

I then mixed the ingredients in the food processor.  The total weight of the dough ball was 251 grams. I had to hand knead the dough, because my food processor did mix the dough, but it was flaky. After hand mixing the dough looked okay. I then boiled 4 cups of water and place that in a pyrex measuring cup and then put the dough in a container and also put that in the microwave. 

I placed the thermometer in the dough and the dough was in a container. The temperature of the dough was 90 degrees F after checking it after 15 minutes.  After a half hour the temperature of the dough was 95 degrees F.  I just checked it again after 45 minutes and the temperature even went higher.  There doesn’t appear to be any skin on the dough.

I will see how trying to make this par-baked crust goes from here.

Norma

[norma427]

After an hour and fifteen minutes, I boiled 4 more cups of water and replaced the water in the Pyrex measuring container.  I wanted to keep the microwave as humid as possible.  The steam came rolling out when I checked it again. 

I decided to roll the dough out after 2 hours of proofing.  The dough rolled out okay, but it took a little while  to roll it.  I tried the best I could to make the rolled dough round.  I then cut the dough with a scissors to 13".  After I cut the dough and went to place it in the cutter pan, it seem to shrink.  I took it out and weighed the unbaked crust.  The weight was 6.3 oz.  I know that is far off the weight of the Ultra-Thin crusts, but I sure wasn’t going to put the whole dough back together and roll again. Then the unbaked crust was docked and placed back into the pan. I then decided to proof the crust again in the cutter pan, placed in the microwave.  I boiled more water and put it in another Pyrex rectangular container that could fit underneath the diagonally placed cutter pan.  The cutter pan had to be adjusted to fit, even diagonally.  The door almost wouldn’t go closed.

I tasted the leftover dough at this point and it tasted bland, just like the Ultra-Thin crusts did.  I couldn’t detect the flavor of garlic powder.

I checked the docked crust after fifteen minutes and it wasn’t dry.  I only let the unbaked crust proof for ½ hr. the second time. Second picture of par-baked crust is after the second proof.

I set the oven to 400 degrees F and let it warm up and placed the two aluminum cutter pans (with the unbaked crust between them) into the oven.  I used my IR themomether and the aluminum cutter pans came up to 400 degrees F in about 1 minute.  I then used a knife to separate the top pan from the bottom.  I used the IR thermomether again to see the temperature of the unbaked crust.  Only after another minute it the temperature of the crust was 150 degrees F.  I only baked the crust until the temperature reached 195 degrees F.  I quickly weighed the par-baked crust and it weighed 6.0 oz. 

In my opinion I baked the crust a little to long.  I took a video inside (because it was too hot outside) of how the par-baked crust looks and folds.  In the one place it can be seen how the par-baked crust tore a little. 

Sorry my fingernails are dirty, but I was outside early this morning watering my plants and pulling weeds.  I did wash my hands, but didn't get all the dirt out from underneath my finger nails.

video

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spPAiB1OaF0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spPAiB1OaF0</a>

 

and pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

After 14 pages and 273 Replies, and looking at your photos and video, I think we may be on the right track. Did you feel the same way based on the handling characteristics of the skin you made?

I think that you will find the next dough easier to handle once you are able to get your proofing box working although you may have to increase the temperature of the proofing box to about 115-120 degrees F. That should make rolling out the dough faster and easier and reduce the potential of toughening up the dough because of excessive rolling. Although you did not taste the garlic powder, it could be that Ultra-Thin is using more garlic powder in order to intentionally soften the dough to reduce shrinking. That might allow us to increase the amount of garlic powder even more next time. It is also possible that the yeast is dead yeast, even if used in very small quantity. BTW, when I use ingredients like garlic powder and baking soda, I use the volume measurements. I don't weigh them even though I have a small scale that I can use for that purpose.

Your original dough weight of 251 grams equates to 8.85 ounces. The 13" skin should have weighed 7.70 ounces, versus the 6.3 ounces you got. I think you will get closer on the weight with experience and once you are able to roll out the dough more easily and maybe with a rounder shape. With a final par-baked weight of 6 ounces, the weight loss during the par-bake was 4.76%. You might recall that I estimated a weight loss of 5% when I came up with my original numbers. That was just a gut call but it good to know that maybe we are in the ballpark.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I also think we might be on the right track with making this par-baked crust.  I thought the handling characteristics were good.  It’s been a lot of reading and deciding what might be the right things to try, but in my opinion the par-baked skin made today seemed to be in the ballpark

I can see how a proofing box would help this dough to be easier to roll out, but it wasn’t too bad.  I couldn’t taste the garlic powder in the real Ultra-Thin skins.  Steve was the one that said he could detect a small taste of garlic.  I don’t know how this skin is going to bake for a pizza, but it will be interesting to see what happens.  The dough did seem to shrink after cutting.  I had placed the rolled out skin on the inverted cutter pan and measured it.  I then scored it, so I knew where to cut.  When I cut the skin and then placed it in the cutter pan, it seemed to shrink. 

It’s good to hear that the par-baked skin did lose about the amount of weight that you mentioned before.. 

Like I said before, I need more practice in rolling a dough.  I sure wasn’t going to reball and roll later.  In my opinion this par-baked skin, even worked with microwave as a proofing box. 

The skin sure had a quick bake.  It didn’t take long for the skin to par-bake. 

I have the par-baked skin sitting on my kitchen table now, wrapped in triple plastic wrap.  Do you think I should freeze it?  I might try to bake a pizza tonight out of the par-baked skin. 

What kind of volume measurements would I use for garlic powder and salt in the formula you set-forth?

If it gets cooler here tonight, I will take the skin outside and take another video of how it looks.  I think I might have over-baked just a little.  I was going for a temperature of about 185 degrees F, but the temperature was a little higher.  The bottom side of the crust seemed to be in line with what the real Ultra-Thin skin felt like.  The top of the skin, felt a little drier. I think that is why it split in one place. I might need to go to a different rack position, in the next attempt.

Norma 

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

In order to parallel the Ultra-Thin experience, my instinct is to freeze the skin so that we can see how the skin behaves in the oven after it is defrosted, dressed and baked, just as you have done with real Ultra-Thin par-baked crusts. I am most interested to see if the skin behaves in the oven the same way as a real Ultra-Thin par-baked crust. I'd also like to get your opinion on the flavor of the par-baked crust, including whether you can detect the baking soda in the crust or any other distinctive flavor.

In the dough formulation I posted at Reply 218 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101909.html#msg101909, the garlic powder quantity is 0.23 teaspoon and the baking soda quantity is 0.15 teaspoon. 0.23 teaspoon is just shy of 1/4 teaspoon. 0.15 teaspoon is about 2/3 of a 1/4 teaspoon measuring spoon. If the dough formulation ultimately proves to be a useful one, and you decide to make a larger number of dough balls, the volume measurements for the garlic powder and baking soda should become easier.

At least is looks like the physics part of the experiment works and that the two cutter pan method with a low temperature bake is a reasonable one for a home oven application. However, as the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If we fail there, and there is little to guide us to an improvement, then we have to reassess what we have done to date.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I will freeze the skin and if I get the chance tonight, will make a pizza.  I am also interested in how this par-baked skin will taste in relation to a real Ultra-Thin par-baked skin.  When I ate a piece of the leftover dough, I couldn’t detect a taste of baking soda.  That was raw dough.  In my opinion, I think in the end we will come up with a better product than Ultra-Thin, because ours will be made fresh and probably with better ingredients than the real Ultra-Thins.  No “dead yeast”, if they do use such a thing. 

Thanks for explaining how to measure the garlic powder and baking soda.  I will see if the Restaurant Store carries the smaller measuring spoons the next time I go there.

I think the cutters pans will work, like they did today. I docked the skin more than I should have, but I was worried it might want to rise.  There was no problem with that.  The skin just stayed flat, between the pans.

If tonight gets cooler outside, I will get a real Ultra-Thin par-baked skin out of the freezer and take a video of how both crusts look, when compared.  That is also something that would be interesting in my opinion. 

I know we are only at the beginning of understanding how a real Ultra-Thin par-baked skin is supposed to be like, but I think we are at least a lot further than before. 

Norma

[norma427]

I decided to take the par-baked skin I made today and the real Ultra-Thin skin out of the freezer earlier than expected because it was getting cloudy here and looked like we might get a shower.  The sun wasn’t shining, but this video was taken in natural light. I was a little surprised, when I took the par-baked skin that I had made today out of the freezer.  After I par-baked the skin, while it was in the house and when I took it out to the freezer, the color of the skin stayed the same. When it was in the freezer and before I froze it, it appeared to be about the same color as the real Ultra-Thin par-baked crusts.  From the time I carried it out to about the same place I took the video before, it started turning dark around the edges and finally when completely defrosted it turn darker in appearance all over the skin.  It now makes me wonder what causes that phenomenon. Wish I understood physics more. The real Ultra-Thin didn’t perform the same as the last time either.  I had wanted to weigh the par-baked skin after I was finished taking the video, but when handling the skin, it split in half. The par-baked skin I made today also, had a little piece that broke from the whole skin.

I removed the card table from the shed again, and placed the same table cloth and towels on the card table to compare the colors of the real Ultra-Thin and the attempt I made today of the par-baked skin.   I turned both par-baked skins over different times and folded them, also.

Any ideas about why the par-baked skin I made today, turned darker in color when defrosting?

Video

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZlX6b8nVIY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZlX6b8nVIY</a>

Norma

[norma427]

I baked the pizza this evening, using the par-baked skin I made today.  I dressed the pizza with 6 in 1 sauce, Foremost blend of cheese and Mortadella.  The oven was preheat to 500 degrees F.  The pizza was baked on the stone in the middle rack position. It took 5 minutes to bake this pizza.  While I was dressing the pie, I had a phone call and it took longer to dress the pie.  When I finished dressing the pie, I went to load it onto the pizza stone.  Part of the pizza wanted to stick to the wooden peel.  It can be seen on the pictures the place where the pizza has a bump from the loading mishap. Even after the crust was darker when defrosting, the crust turned the normal color while baking.

Norma