Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?

[norma427]

Peter,

The experiment I did yesterday, did come out somewhat like the Ultra-Thin par-baked skin.  I should have saved the pictures, but deleted them, after the attempt failed and the bottom of the skin stuck to the pan.  The skin was thicker, but rubbery like the last attempt at the par-baked skins. I wished I had taken my IR thermometer along to market, but wasn’t thinking about doing the experiment until I was at market, yesterday. If the experiment would have even worked out somewhat, then I wanted to try  let the par-baked skin cool down, then add sauce and cheese and bring it home to try to see what it would taste like when baked in my home oven.  I had tried different ways of making a pizza to bring home and bake the next day.  None of them tasted like a fresh baked pizza.  The last attempt I did, looked really good, but somehow when baking the sauce didn’t taste as fresh. The crust worked out well. That still puzzles me, when the sauce wasn’t cooked in the first place.  I look at different pizzas sitting in the deli sections of different grocery stores and I try to visualize and think about how they go about making the pizzas.  I never bought one to take home and bake, so I really don’t know how they taste.

I haven’t thought about using screens to try baking the skins.  I don’t know what would happen, but would think the skins would dry out in the oven.  In my last attempt at home with the cutter pans, the skin didn’t rise at all and the skin stayed moist, except the top of the skin appeared to be a little drier than the bottom.  I will let it up to you if you want to try that method, but for now, I am satisfied with the way the two cutter pans worked.  I might try just baking the same way, without the stone on the bottom rack.  It was easy to just monitor the skins baking with the use of a kitchen knife and a pair of tongs.  I just lifted up the top cutter pan and used my IR thermometer to check the temperature of the skin.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I went to the Country Store to see what brand of flour the Whole Wheat Flour was.  I looked on the list and didn’t see the brand.  I saw that the Whole Wheat Flour is labeled Whole Wheat Pastry Flour.  The owner of the store was in and I talked to her about the brand.  She said the Whole Wheat Pastry Flour is milled by Snavely Mills, in Lititz and to call them to find out the protein content.  I did call Snavely Mills and the quality assurance person is at a meeting for the rest of today.  The receptionist told me to leave a voice mail and she would return my call tomorrow to let me know what kind of protein content is in the Whole Wheat Pastry Flour. 

http://www.ohiobarns.com/othersites/mills/palanco/38-36snavelymill.html

I don’t know if you want me to proceed with this kind of flour in my next attempt or not, before knowing the protein content. 

I did get another dimmer switch at our local hardware store, so tonight I will give the wiring of the new dimmer switch for the proofing box another try. 

Pictures below of how the flours are at our local Country Store and a picture of how the Whole Wheat Pastry Flour comes in a plastic bag.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The whole wheat pastry flour is not the same as whole wheat flour. But, to be sure, let's wait to see if you get the protein content. Whole wheat flour generally has a protein content of around 13.8-14.2%.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

It dawned on me recently that the ingredients list you got from Ultra-Thin does not list potassium bromate. When potassium bromate is used, it usually is listed in the ingredients list somewhere in the middle of the vitamin/iron enrichment package. If you ever find a need to speak with Ultra-Thin again you might want to ask them again whether the flour is bromated. It is possible that they were thinking of bleached instead of bromated when you spoke with them. To the best of my knowledge, if an enterprise is subject to FDA labeling requirements and they are using potassium bromate they are required by the FDA to list potassium bromate.

Ultra-Thin also has distributors in California, where the use of potassium bromate in food products requires a cancer warning label, so I assume that they would have to be in compliance with California law on this subject.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I will call Ultra-Thin Shells, again. When I talked to them the first time, at first the person I talked to didn’t know if the flour was bromated.  Then she got me to wait, while she asked someone else.  I told her (I forget the persons name that I talked to the first time), I used only non-bromated flour in making my NY style pizzas at market and I needed to know, if someone asked me about the flour for the Ultra-Thin Pizzas.  I have a sign at market, on my deli case that says I use non-bromated flour in my pizzas. 

I am sure I talked to one of the owners daughters, but I guess they aren’t too informed or don’t want to divulge information.  When she came back on the phone she said they did use bromated flour.  I know that California needs to tell if they use bromated flours in their products or put a warning label on it.  I am sure you are right on the matter of them probably not using bromated flours, but it now makes me wonder if they ship their products in California, if they do put a warning label on there.  There would be no need to put one on for Pa.  Another thing that also makes me wonder is that I have talked to both daughters in NY.  I thought the one daughter was supposed to be based in California and help sell their products there.  It is just another matter  to confuse this whole thing.  I am not really happy with this company.  I wonder how other customers feel about their product and the misinformation?

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I think I found the year that the Ultra-Thin Shell Company was established, but am not sure. I can’t get this information to come up in a link. This is.what I found after I had Googled different words for Ultra-Thin Company.  I copied and pasted what I found.  This just takes you to directions for the Ultra-Thin Shell Company.

Doug Bronsky - Ultra Thin Ready To Bake Pizza Shells New York, LLC ...
Doug Bronsky, Ultra Thin Ready To Bake Pizza Shells New York, LLC detailed ... Ready To Bake Pizza Shells New York, LLC offers and services? Year Established: 1996 ... like to update your Port Washington listing please send us an email using this form. ... Fab-Con Machinery Development Corp. 75 Channel Dr. 11050 ...
www.manufacturedirections.com/.../332387-doug-bronsky.html - Cached - Similar

I am not sure if this is when the Ultra-Thin Company was established, but will keep on searching.

edit:  If you copy and paste this in Google, this should come up.

Doug Bronsky - Ultra Thin Ready To Bake Pizza Shells New York, LLC year established

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I can see how Ultra-Thin might be exempt from the FDA labeling requirements. If that is the case, they may not see a need to be come up with an ingredients list that is in full compliance and completely up to date. If we come up with more accurate information, that is good but I think we can proceed without it.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I can see how Ultra-Thin might be exempt from the FDA labeling requirements. If that is the case, they may not see a need to be come up with an ingredients list that is in full compliance and completely up to date. If we come up with more accurate information, that is good but I think we can proceed without it.

Peter

Thanks for the information.  I just tried to put that proofing box together again with a new dimmer switch and it still doesn't work. It didn't trip the breaker, but I can't figure out what is wrong.  I will  get someone else to look at it.  Hopefully it will be in operation for my next attempt.

Norma

[vish2912]

  hi may name is vishal

 i like ultrathin pizza as well  i saw your recipe i  think its great
 
but i  refurbished a littel bit  by adding a semolina to the dough  so if you want to make 1kg dough  i use  800gm flour and 200 gm super fine semolina 

i m very new to pizza making  so i m not sure but its just an idea

so thanks

[norma427]

  hi may name is vishal

 i like ultrathin pizza as well  i saw your recipe i  think its great
 
but i  refurbished a littel bit  by adding a semolina to the dough  so if you want to make 1kg dough  i use  800gm flour and 200 gm super fine semolina 

i m very new to pizza making  so i m not sure but its just an idea

so thanks

Hi vishal,

Welcome to this forum.  You will find many ideas for making pizzas here.  If we ever get this Ultra-Thin par-baked crust right, I am sure we could get many varied tastes in the crust by using different flours or even different ingredients.  Right now we are just working on trying to par-bake the skin to get the taste of a real Ultra-Thin crust.  It is difficult to try to know how to go about par-baking a skin if you never did it before. 

Your idea is a great contribution and down the line, could be an option for making a better tasting par-baked skin.   

I didn't make Ultra-Thin crusts before I started this thread.  Peter has made many thin crusts, so I will let him point you in the direction to the ones he made and enjoyed.

Hope you keep us posted on your future attempts and what you learned from them.

Thanks for your idea, 

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I talked to Brandy at Snavely Mills.  She is a food scientist and was very knowledgeable.  She said if the flour I purchased at our local country store is the soft fine wheat flour the protein content would be between 9-10.5 %.  After I talked to her about different flours they sell, I asked her if they also produced high-gluten flours and what protein content they would be.  She said they do produce whole wheat hard red spring flour that has a protein content of between 13.8-14.0 %, that isn’t bleached or bromated.  She said they only bleach or bromate flours if a company specifies for it to be bleached or bromated.  I then asked her if I could come to their mill and purchase that kind of flour and what the price would be for a 50 lb. bag.  She connected me to a sales rep and she said for a 50 lb. bag of the whole wheat hard red spring flour it would be 12.00.  That is a lot better price than what I am paying for KASL.  I then asked the sales rep if they mill flours for big companies, like GM, KA or others.  She said yes, they do mill for big companies.  Maybe from this thread I will find a cheaper flour to use at market.  It would be interesting to try it and see how it compares to KASL.

I also emailed Meghan at Ultra-Thin Shells about the flour used in their par-baked shells.  I asked if she would clarify if they are using bleached and bromated flours.  I stated again, I needed to know because I would need to tell customers if they asked. I wrote more than that,  but received this email.  I copied and pasted the email. 

Norma:
 
Thank you for your inquiry regarding our flour specs.
As of this writing we do use a Bromated, Bleached Flour.
 
Kindest Regards,
 
Cherise
 
It also makes me wonder, since I wrote Meghan at her email address, why I got a reply from Cherise.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

There is a world of difference between whole wheat flour and high-gluten flour, whether it is KASL, Kyrol, All-Trumps, etc. The whole wheat flour contains everything that is in the wheat kernels, including bran, wheat germ, fiber, etc. These latter components are largely removed during the milling of the "white" high-gluten flours. However, because a lot of the nutrients are removed from the grains during the milling of high-gluten flours (the same is also true of weaker flours like bread flour and all-purpose flour), they are largely added back to the milled flours in the form of vitamins and, in some cases, iron. Some of the flours also have bromates, bleaching agents, enzymes and ascorbic acid added. You cannot substitute whole wheat flour for KASL simply because they have similar protein contents. The results will be entirely different. Unless you have a way of refrigerating a 50 pound bag of whole wheat flour, I would not advise purchasing such a large bag. Whole wheat flours contain fairly high levels of oils (lipids) that can go rancid if the flour is held at room temperature for even short periods of time. I would check a local supermarket to see if they have 5-lb bags of whole wheat flour. More and more supermarkets are now carrying the white whole wheat flours but there are many that also carry the regular whole wheat flour. As I noted previously, I do not believe that the white whole wheat flours were available in the late 90s.

It is good to know that Ultra-Thin is using bromated and bleached flour. Usually whole wheat flour is not bromated but I learned recently when I was looking at the FDA regs that there is such a thing as a bromated whole wheat flour.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I did know that whole wheat flour was different (but didn’t know the information about the whole wheat flour) and I had asked Brandy if they also sold a high-gluten flour.  I think I became mixed up when she said yes, they did sell a high-gluten flour.  I just automatically thought that she was just talking about a regular high-gluten flour, which would be white or light yellow..  I can now see what the difference is.  Thanks for the information.  I still have a lot to learn about flours.  I might call Randy sometime next week and see if they also sell regular high-gluten flour, not whole wheat. 

Just when I think I am learning new things, I have more to learn.  LOL 

I know my local grocery store carries King Arthur whole wheat, but am not sure if they carry the white whole wheat.  I will purchase some King Arthur whole wheat in the next few days. 

Good to hear you were also checking on the bromated whole wheat flour and also found there is a product like that.   

Norma

[scott123]

The bran in wheat, even when ground fine, is like tiny little knives. Every time you knead a whole wheat flour dough, these knives slice through the gluten framework- that's a big reason why ww bread is generally denser.

[norma427]

The bran in wheat, even when ground fine, is like tiny little knives. Every time you knead a whole wheat flour dough, these knives slice through the gluten framework- that's a big reason why ww bread is generally denser.

scott123,

Thanks for the information about the bran in wheat.    I have so much to learn about flours.  I don't know if my mind can keep up with all this new information.   

Norma

[norma427]

I emailed ConAgraMills to find out the specs for Kyrol flour.  This is the pdf. document they sent me.  When coping and pasting this document, some of the things are under where they are supposed to be.  I did the best I could in copying them. 
Norma

Technical Services
Eleven ConAgra Drive
Omaha, Nebraska 68102                     
402-595-4370
ConAgra Food Ingredients
Moisture:
14.3% Maximum
Ash *:
0.54% +/- 0.03%
Protein*:
14.0% +/- 0.30%
Falling Number*:
260 +/- 30 sec
Ingredient Listing:
*Moisture Basis/Nitrogen Factor: 14.0% MB/n x 5.7
Allergen Statement: Contains wheat.
Kosher Certification: Parve, KOF-K Kosher Supervision
260 +/- 30 sec
Ingredient Listing:
*Moisture Basis/Nitrogen Factor: 14.0% MB/n x 5.7
Allergen Statement: Contains wheat.
Kosher Certification: Parve, KOF-K Kosher Supervision
260 +/- 30 sec
Shelf Life: 90 days at recommended storage conditions and good sanitary practices.
All testing methods AACC (American Association of Cereal Chemists) approved.
Nutritional Information (100g basis):
Calories (kcal)*
Fat (g)*
Saturated Fat (g)*
Sugars (g)*
Monounsaturated Fat (g)*
Polyunsaturated Fat (g)*
TDF (g)*
Sodium (mg)*
Potassium (mg)*
Vitamin A (IU)*
Vitamin C (mg)*
Calcium (mg)*
Description: Kyrol is the food prepared in the grinding and bolting of cleaned hard wheat. The product is produced in
accordance with good manufacturing practices and all applicable FDA regulations as amended.
Source: * USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, Release 18 (2005)
Water (g)* 13.36
Indicated ash and protein content is based on average crop year environmental conditions and straight grade extraction
levels. The actual ash and protein content may vary from year to year based on the mineral content of the endosperm
and wheat protein. Targeted functionality will remain the same from crop year to crop year.
Carbohydrates (g)** 70.44
14.00
0.540
Protein (g)**
Ash (g)**
** Calculated
Iron (mg)* Trans Fat (g)*** 0.0
*** Based on Analytical Results
Product is sifted prior to packing (bag) or loading (bulk).
Enr Statement: Enriched to levels as listed in CFR Title 21 137.165 Enriched Wheat Flour, following
Good Manufacturing Practices: Niacin 24 mg/lb; Iron 20 mg/lb ; Thiamine Mononitrate 2.9 mg/lb ;
Riboflavin 1.8 mg/lb; Folic Acid 0.7 mg/lb
Product Name: Kyrol - FD
See Enr
Statement
Storage and Food Safety Instructions: Store flour in a clean, cool and dry area. Recommended storage conditions are <75
degrees F and <50% humidity. Flour is a raw agricultural product and must be thoroughly cooked before eating.
Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Potassium Bromate, Thiamine
Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid
Date Issued: Wednesday, April 08, 2009
Page 1 of 1

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you for posting the information. By any chance, does the pdf document indicate how many calories there are in a 100 gram serving?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

This is what I copied.  Each item has to be copied and then the numbers have to be put in by me.  Let me know if you need any other information from this pdf. Document.

Nutritional Information (100g basis):

Calories (kcal)* 361
Fat (g)*   1.66
Saturated Fat (g)* 0.244
Monounsaturated Fat (g)* 0.14
Polyunsaturated Fat (g)* 0.727
Carbohydrates (g)** 70.44
Sugars (g)* 0.31
Protein (g)** 14.00
Water (g)* 13.36
TDF (g)* 2.4
Ash (g)** 0.540
Iron (mg)* See enrichment statement
Sodium (mg)* 2
Potassium (mg)* 100
Calcium (mg)* 24
Vitamin A (IU)* 2
Vitamin C (mg)* 0
Trans Fat (g)*** 0.0

** Calculated

*** Based on Analytical Results

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I played around with November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ using the Kyrol calorie information you provided and the King Arthur whole wheat flour calorie information (for the regular whole wheat flour, not the white whole wheat flour). I wanted to see how much of the Kyrol flour and the KA whole wheat flour would be needed to achieve the total caloric value that I calculated based on the dough formulation I posted at Reply 218 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101909.html#msg101909. For purposes of using the above tool, I used the nominal protein content for the Kyrol of 14% and 14.2% for the King Arthur whole wheat flour (based on the data given at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html). I used the 173.54 grams of flour from the abovementioned dough calculation in the tool. Based on my analysis, I came up with 108.46 grams of Kyrol flour and 65.08 grams of the KA whole wheat flour. The total protein content of the blend is 14.075%. The 65.08 grams of the KA whole wheat flour represents 37.5% of the total blend.

For comparison purposes, I did the same calculations but using the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and the KA regular whole wheat flour, both of which I have on hand. The KABF has a nominal protein content of 12.7%, as noted in the abovereferenced KA link (where the KABF is labeled "Special"). I used the same flour figure, 173.54 grams, in the tool. In this example, I came up with 110.49 grams of the KABF and 63.05 grams of the KA whole wheat flour, with the latter figure representing 36.33% of the total flour weight. The protein content of the blend is 13.245%. I think the numbers are similar to the last example because the Kyrol and KABF have identical caloric values (361 calories) per 100 grams. As it turns out, the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour has 350 calories per 100 gram sample (as per the abovereferenced KA document).

I have no idea how the above numbers will play out in practice. The numbers also suggest that there are many possible combinations of flours that can yield similar caloric values based on the types and brands of flours. To more closely replicate what Ultra-Thin is doing with its flour blend, we would need to know the types and brands of the two flours they use.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I find it interesting that you can go by the total caloric value and protein content and then go to November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator and be able to come up with the amounts of Kyrol and KA wheat flour to be used.  I only can wish my mind could do that.  It boggles my mind to just read that.

It’s good to hear the numbers suggest that there could be many possible combinations that can yield similar caloric values.  Thanks for figuring all this information out. I don’t think we are ever going to find out what flour blend the real Ultra-Thin shells have.

If I find time this weekend, I will try the numbers for the flours you posted today in the formula and see what happens.  I also need to get my proofing box project finished. 

For anyone that is interested, the baby robin took its first flight today.  I had been watching everyday and the mother had moved the baby robin 3 times.  Today the baby robin was in the back yard, while I was working outside.  It didn’t let me get to close.  It kept hopping over the ground and under the deck.  I went to take a picture of it and get closer and I guess I scared the baby robin.  It flew.  I was amazed it grew up so fast.  Picture of grown up baby robin in the tree.

Norma