Author Topic: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?  (Read 45406 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #340 on: July 05, 2010, 06:36:25 PM »
Norma,

My view is that if you are getting par-baked crusts that look and feel like the Ultra-Thin par-baked crusts, you should continue the way you have been doing it. We really don't have many options at this point for a home oven setting. Maybe eventually you will be able to determine the best oven temperature to use but, even then, you perhaps aren't going to have wide swings of temperature. And if you are monitoring the temperature of the skins as they par-bake and yank them when they reach a particular temperature, that might be a workable system if you are satisfied with the results. And even if the system isn't perfect, you may be able to compensate for the inadequacies, if any, by modifying the dough formulation to get it in sync with the oven arrangement and temperatures you use.

The reason why I wonder whether Ultra-Thin is using a lower protein flour is because of the value of the protein number given in the Ultra-Thin nutrition data. It seems too low for a combination of a high-gluten flour and a whole wheat flour. However, I won't know if I am barking up the right tree until I see more data on weight loss and how the other numbers change because of it. Today, while I was at my local supermarket, I checked out the all-purpose flours to see what the caloric values are for 100 grams of flour and whether there were any bromated and bleached all-purpose flours. I found bleached all-purpose flours but no bromated versions. I will have to look at other markets in my area.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #341 on: July 05, 2010, 07:44:31 PM »
Peter,

I do feel at this time, that the par-baked skins are something like the real Ultra-Thin skins.  I just wonder how I can compensate for the top of the skin being drier that the bottom.  I think the data is more important right now, so I will just go ahead as in my last two attempts.  I have been monitoring the temperature of the top skin, under the top cutter pan, so maybe the par-baked skin needs to be a couple of degrees lower.  Until I take the cutter pans out of the oven, remove the top pan, the temperature could be a couple of degrees higher.  I didn’t measure the temperature after I took the par-baked skins out of the oven.  I was more worried about getting the par-baked skin to 185 degrees and then taking it right out of the oven. 
                        
That is interesting that you wonder if Ultra-Thin is using a lower protein flour because of the protein number given at the Ultra-Thin nutrition data.  I will look at my grocery stores to see if they have bromated bleached all- purpose flours.  I don’t think they carry anything like that, at our local stores.  Are  there any companies that mill flours that you would like me to contact on bromated bleached all-purpose flours and if they could give me spec sheets.  I did call Tod Bramble at King Arthur today to see if I could find out the specs for retail level whole wheat and whole wheat white flours.  I left a message and call-back number. 

Norma
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 07:57:22 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #342 on: July 05, 2010, 08:46:46 PM »
Norma,

If you are baking high up in the oven, you might use a lower rack position and lower the oven temperature so that the bottom doesn't cook as quickly and dry out. Another possibility is to mist the top of the skin with water when you place it into the lower cutter pan. Maybe the trapped moisture will ensure that the top of the skin remains soft.

I wouldn't worry too much about the all-purpose flour at this point. The store that I checked today is part of the Safeway chain, which is headquartered in CA with several stores in the state, where bromated flours require cancer notices. It is possible that Safeway is not selling any bromated flours in its stores, even in Texas.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #343 on: July 06, 2010, 12:37:16 PM »
Norma,

Today, I decided to check the flour section of another supermarket, one that caters to a low-end demographic and carries the lowest end of just about any product. I thought that such a store would be most likely to carry a bromated bleached all-purpose flour. Alas, it did not. I saw bleached flours but not bromated flours.

I also checked the General Mills H&R (hotel and restaurant) all-purpose flour, which is usually at the low end of the bread flour scale. That flour is bleached but it is not bromated. For several years I have not paid much attention to bleached flours, bromated or not, so it appears that in the interim stores are not carrying bromated all-purpose flours like they used to.

The possibility of Ultra-Thin using all-purpose flour came to me after you gave me the last dough weight loss figure for the last Kyrol/KA whole wheat flour par-baked crust you made. Since we have lowered the amount of whole wheat flour, I think that the next weight loss data may be different. That data may be more useful in determining what kind of flour blend might meet Ultra-Thin's nutritions data.

Peter

Offline sear

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #344 on: July 06, 2010, 05:29:16 PM »
After you guys get done with this, im gonna need you to stay late and make a gluten free version.
and if you could hand kneed it, that be great. mmkay ?

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #345 on: July 06, 2010, 07:20:16 PM »
Peter,

I wanted to let you know in my last two attempts I did bake on the middle rack.  The first time I let the baking stone on the bottom rack and in the last attempt I removed it from the oven. Your idea of using a mist is good.  I will try that in my next attempt, to keep the top skin from drying.

Sorry you are checking all the supermarkets and not having any luck.  I now know why different people tell me there old recipes for cakes don’t turn out like they used to.  All this confusion with flours and I can see how a simple cake recipe can be different when trying the different white all-purpose flours.

In the next attempt we will see if the weigh loss data is different.  I don’t know how you understand all these things.  I left my scales at market today, because I need it to measure for my poolish on Friday.  Hopefully I will remember to bring it home then.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #346 on: July 06, 2010, 07:24:06 PM »
After you guys get done with this, im gonna need you to stay late and make a gluten free version.
and if you could hand kneed it, that be great. mmkay ?


sear,

LOL, this cloning is hard.  I never though just making a par-baked skin would get so involved.  Maybe if we ever get this figured out you can be the first to try a gluten free version.   ::)  Hand kneading isn't any problem compared to this.  :-D

Norma
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Offline sear

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #347 on: July 07, 2010, 08:48:17 AM »
sear,

LOL, this cloning is hard.  I never though just making a par-baked skin would get so involved.  Maybe if we ever get this figured out you can be the first to try a gluten free version.   ::)  Hand kneading isn't any problem compared to this.  :-D

Norma

i see that !, i was just kidding around with a Lumberg -from "office space" impression
 :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #348 on: July 07, 2010, 09:33:26 AM »
James,

I see at http://www.ultrathinpizza.com/products/index.html that Ultra-Thin plans to introduce a gluten-free crust. However, if I ever get the urge to reverse-engineer and clone such a crust, or any other pizza product for that matter, that I have not seen, touched and eaten in person, I plan to lie down and not get up until the feeling goes completely away. The only exception is that I would do it for Norma. She has worked tirelessly and unselfishly on behalf of the forum and members and made countless contributions to this forum with grace, class and humor. She deserves any help she can get from the rest of us.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #349 on: July 07, 2010, 09:34:07 AM »
i see that !, i was just kidding around with a Lumberg -from "office space" impression
 :)


sear,

I didn’t understand the joke, so I looked up Lumberg from the “office space” impression and now I understand what you were talking about.  I had never saw Office Space before.  What I read was hilarious!  Thanks for the joke.  :-D  We need a few jokes in this thread.

Maybe this is what we should tell Peter.  ::)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vS5zl2JQM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vS5zl2JQM</a>


Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #350 on: July 07, 2010, 09:47:05 AM »
Peter,

If I ever mention cloning another crust or pizza product, remind me of this thread and the Mack’s thread.  I also will just lay down until the feeling goes away. I sure don’t think I would ever want to attempt something like this again, but you never know.  I never say never.   ::)

Thanks for your kind words, Peter.  I do like to experiment and am learning along the way.  I want other forum members or guests to be able to replicate our results, if we can ever get this right.  Sorry for giving you more work.  You are always helping other members, so my hat is off to you, too!  :chef:

Norma
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 09:51:57 AM by norma427 »
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Offline sear

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #351 on: July 07, 2010, 10:53:10 AM »
sear,

I didn’t understand the joke, so I looked up Lumberg from the “office space” impression and now I understand what you were talking about.  I had never saw Office Space before.  What I read was hilarious!  Thanks for the joke.  :-D  We need a few jokes in this thread.

Maybe this is what we should tell Peter.  ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vS5zl2JQM

Norma


its a must see movie ! , i cant believe i couldnt find the clip i wanted . its because there is so many impressions and spoofs/edits of it on youtube.

heres a couple trailers and one is the beginning of the movie

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v90q0ydxMI&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v90q0ydxMI&amp;feature=related</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5AVUrUoROo&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5AVUrUoROo&amp;feature=related</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqlDQKaMAU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqlDQKaMAU</a>


Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #352 on: July 07, 2010, 12:45:30 PM »
sear,

Thanks for bringing the humor into this thread.   :-D  I looked at different videos on YouTube and most of them were hilarious.  I watched “Gangster Dreams”, “Printer Die”, “People Skills”, "Case of the Mondays”, “PC Load Letter”, “Pet Rock Scene” and others.  I will have to rent or buy that movie someday and watch it.

I really liked the idea of the Jump to Conclusions Mat show at 1:43 in this video

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9PQGygZwA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9PQGygZwA</a>


Near the end of this video,Tom says to Peter,  “Good Things Can Happen” if you hang it there long enough, just look what happened to me.  That was too funny.

Thanks for the videos and laughs,  ;D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #353 on: July 07, 2010, 02:52:48 PM »
Peter,

I don’t know if you have the specs for King Arthur Whole Wheat White Flour, but Tod Bramble  just responded to me in a email with a pdf. document on the specs for KA Whole Wheat White Flour.

Norma – here is the spec sheet on the KA White Whole Wheat. We do not offer a 50# sack of our traditional whole wheat.
Let me know if you have any questions.

Tod  Bramble
Bakery Flour Sales
King Arthur Flour Co., Inc
207-233-2548 (cell)
207-774-3369 (fax)

I emailed Tod Bramble back to ask if the KA White Whole Wheat has the same specs in a 50 lb. bag, as the KA White Whole Wheat sold at the retail level.


King Arthur Flour Company, Inc.
Bakery Food Service Division
Toll Free Phone: 1-877-523-5687
Fax: (207) 774-3368
King Arthur Bakery Flour Specifications
Brand Name KA White Whole Wheat
King Arthur Item # 17050
Full UPC # 71012170500
Moisture (Maximum) 13.5
Protein (14% M.B.) 12.5% - 14%
Ash (14% M.B.) 1.20 min
Falling Number 350sec min
Sifting Specifications
wire 18 0.2% max
wire 30 2.5% max
wire 40 4.0% - 15.%
wire 70 45% max
wire pan 45.0% - 60.0%
Wheat Type: Hard White Wheat
Treatment* none
Enrichment** No
All flours are to be prepared by grinding clean, sound wheat in accordance with
current FDA regulations. All testing methods AACC approved.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #354 on: July 07, 2010, 03:04:52 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the KA white whole wheat data. I was relying on the information given at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #355 on: July 07, 2010, 03:42:23 PM »
Peter,

Tod Bramble did email me back saying the specs were only for 50 lb bags.

I did email Ultra-Thins Shell Company again and I copied and pasted what I emailed and what Cherise replied.

Cherise,

I just had one other question to ask you about the flours you use.  When I was sent an ingredient list for customers that might want to know about the ingredients, I saw you listed whole wheat flour as an ingredient.  I was just curious, and you don't need to answer this question, but since whole wheat is used in the blend, I was wondering why the par-baked shells aren't darker.  I have used whole wheat flour in baking at home and usually my products come out darker.

Thanks for all the help you have given me.

Regards,

Norma

Typically we use a White Whole Wheat and there is also another Wheat added which makes color a non-issue.  However, when we make our Whole Wheat we use a combination of a Stone Ground Whole Wheat and White Flour - which does give it the brown color often associated with Whole Wheat  (We have had no luck in using 100% Stone Ground Whole Wheat)
 
Kindest Regards,
Cherise

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #356 on: July 07, 2010, 04:02:29 PM »
Norma,

I am glad you decided after all to ask Ultra-Thin about the whole wheat flour. You might also recall that in Reply 295 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102395.html#msg102395, I raised the possibility that Ultra-Thin was using the white whole wheat flour. There was just no way to know from the ingredients list. The white whole wheat flour is another piece of the puzzle that might move us closer to the goal.

I will take a look at the last dough formulation I gave you to see how using white whole wheat flour (the KA brand) changes the percentages for the flour blend.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #357 on: July 07, 2010, 04:26:03 PM »
Peter,

I was just trying to think what I could say in an email to the Ultra-Thin Shell Company. I was also curious about the whole wheat white flour, but didn’t know what to say, when asking the Ultra-Thin company what they might be using. 

I remember you saying there was a possibility they were using whole wheat white flour and pre 1997 you didn’t think any product like the whole wheat white flour existed.

Hopefully this will be another part of the puzzle that gets us closer to finding our pew.  I am getting tried of trying to find it.

Sorry to give you more work, again.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #358 on: July 07, 2010, 05:05:53 PM »
Norma,

I ran through the numbers on the basis of using the Kyrol and the KAWWW (KA white whole wheat) instead of the KA regular whole wheat flour, and got a percent for the KAWWW of 10% (10% of the total weight of the Flour Blend). However, the total protein number for the blend is still too high based on my calculations from the weights of the two flours that make up the blend. It is up to you if you want to try using the KAWWW. If so, the apportionment of the Flour Blend given in Reply 338 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102799.html#msg102799 would be 90/10, or 167.54 grams (5.91 ounces) of the Kyrol flour and 18.62 grams 0.66 ounces) of the KAWWW (for a total of 186.16 grams/6.57 ounces).

If my calculations are correct, it seems to me that Ultra-Thin is using a weaker flour than the Kyrol or other comparable high-gluten flour. I may change my mind when I see the new weight loss data but my gut tells me that, barring a major change in weight loss, Ultra-Thin is likely using a weaker flour as the white flour.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #359 on: July 07, 2010, 06:01:40 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for running the numbers though again. I will stay with the original plan and use the whole wheat flour blend formula in the next attempt so you can see the data.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102799.html#msg102799

Maybe we can find out if Ultra-Thin is using a weaker flour in the blend.  Your gut feelings are usually right.

I did get another email from Tod Bramble.  It lists all the “Family Flours” for Signature Flour Specifications.  If you don’t already have that, let me know and I will copy and paste the specs.  The specs are for KAAP, Unbleached Bread Flour, White Whole Wheat, and whole wheat sold on the retail level.

Norma
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