Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?

[norma427]

I took a video comparing the real Ultra-Thin par-baked shell, the attempt I made last week having more whole wheat for the blend of flours in the par-baked shell, and the attempt with the less whole wheat in the blend of flours for par-baked shell I made yesterday.  As can be seen in this video there is a difference in the colors of the par-baked shells. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM1cw10x_MQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM1cw10x_MQ</a>

I also weighed the real Ultra-Thin shell before I took the video and it weighed 8.0 oz.  I removed all three par-baked shells from the freezer and put them into a plastic bag and then put them in the refrigerator to let them defrost, so the heat wouldn’t affect any of them in the defrosting process.  There was enough problems last time in watching the one shell turn colors when defrosting.  I don’t know why, but when I removed the one par-baked shell that is the darkest, the edges wanted to break off.  Even after handling it for awhile, it broke in half.  I don’t know what caused that.

I am going to make a pizza out of the par-baked shell I made yesterday, but am not going to make a pizza out of the par-baked shell that is the darkest, because it broke in half.  I am going to just put part of that shell in the oven so I can taste the crust when baked. 

I will post pictures when I finish baking the pizza from the par-baked shell I made yesterday.

Sorry, when I made this video, I didn’t realize how the sun was in the sky and there are shadows on the video in different places.

Norma

[norma427]

In my opinion baking this par-baked shell into a pizza went well in some ways.  In another way, I wasn’t satisfied with how a par-baked crust tastes.  I think this pizza, using the par-baked shell is just like the Ultra-Thin shell when made into a pizza.  Hardly any taste in the crust.  Just bland.

I heated the oven and let it warm-up one hour, so I could bake on the stone placed on the middle rack.  First part of the shell was baked that had tore in half.  I weighed the part of that shell before baking and the weight was 4.3 oz.  After baking the part shell the weight had gone down to 3.5 oz.  That seemed like a lot to me.  I tasted the whole wheat blend of par-baked shell after baking and it did have a taste of whole wheat, but reminded me of Wheat Thin crackers, that didn’t have as much flavor that could be added. Another thing that interested me was while baking the part of the shell, it did look like some bubbles in the par-baked shell while baking.  Picture included of that.

Then I dressed the second par-baked shell and used 4 oz. of cheese blend and 3.5 oz of sauce.  I also then weighed the shell with the sauce and cheese on and it weighed 14.5 oz.  After baking the pizza, it weighed 11.5 oz. right out of the oven.

I then took the pizza outside to cut slices, so it can be seen, how it really looks.  I also took a video of cutting the pie and an upskirt.  I had problems with trying to take a video with my left hand, because I am right handed and can handle the camera better in that hand.  It can be heard when cutting the pie with a scissors how the pie crunches.  I had wanted to use a pizza cutter, but didn’t think I could manage a pizza cutter, the pizza and the camera, all at one time.

Video and pictures

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGjuKjajQPc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGjuKjajQPc</a>

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

last of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Can you give us your assessment of the pizza that you made with the most recent par-baked crust? Also, did you make a similar pizza using an Ultra-Thin par-baked crust, for comparison purposes? And did you follow the baking instructions given at the Ultra-Thin website?

With respect to the earlier par-baked crust with the much higher amount of regular whole wheat flour, if you read the section of the article at http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/69/04712685/0471268569.pdf directed to whole wheat flour, at page 16, you will see that regular whole wheat flour has a high protein content but it does not have the same gluten formation as regular flours with the same or higher protein content. Also, the bran particles are sharp and cut through the gluten like little knives as the gluten is forming. The latter effect may have been responsible for the more fragile nature of the par-baked crust that fell apart. It might have tolerated some flexing but not an excessive amount. Of course, in normal practice, you wouldn't flex it at all.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

My assessment of this part-baked skin I made today into a pizza, is I really don’t like the taste of the crust.  It is okay, but nothing special.  The pizza crust did have a crispy crust and I do like a crispy crust, but the taste of the crust is just so bland.  I could taste a little hint garlic in the crust and no baking soda. I couldn’t taste the wheat in the whole pizza I made today. As I mentioned before I have never tried a cracker style crust, so I can’t compare this pizza with a cracker style.  In my opinion I couldn’t tell much difference in this pizza I made today and a pizza using the real Ultra-Thin shell.  I really don’t like the Ultra-Thin shell, either.  I thought I had liked the pizza made with the Ultra-Thin shells when I went to visit NY, but don’t know what could have been different, unless I didn’t know much about pizzas at the time.  My oven only goes to a little over 500 degrees F, even when heating for an hour.  I did follow the instructions at the Ultra-Thin website and also the instructions, they sent me with the shells, the best I could, because my oven doesn’t go to the temperature they recommend.  Even when baking a real Ultra-Thin shell in the deck oven at market, they still didn’t taste any different than today, when baking in my home oven.

I did start reading the pdf document, but haven’t finished reading that at this time.  I probably will need to read that whole document over a few times, so everything will sink into my mind.  I can see by using the whole wheat flour, that it could have become more brittle because of using the whole wheat flour. I can also see how the wheat flours bran can affect the formation of gluten. I know in normal situations, I wouldn’t treat a crust like I did today.  I just wanted to show how it behaved when turning it over different times, so other people could see how it really looked.  When I removed the real Ultra-Thin crust from the freezer earlier, they are so hard to get apart.  They should have put more separators between the shells.  If you just try to get a few apart, the shells don’t want to come apart.  I had to take 12 shells out and let them partly defrost, before I could get one to separate. 
                     
Do you have any assessments about what I did today?  Is there anything you think I should have done differently and also did the numbers tell you anything new?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I suppose the good news is that the pizza you made using the most recent clone Ultra-Thin par-baked crust was like one made using a real Ultra-Thin par-baked crust, even if the crusts are on the bland side. After viewing the most recent video, my first thought was what using the white whole wheat flour might do, and whether it would be an improvement while getting us closer to a real Ultra-Thin par-baked crust. However, based on your observations, I am not sure that using the white whole wheat flour would yield a materially improved crust, even though I think it would make an interesting and instructive experiment.

I also wasn't sure whether the clone par-baked crust was too crispy and maybe not like what you experienced at the show where you first sampled an Ultra-thin crust/pizza. It occurred to me that if you wanted a somewhat softer crust, with a tendency for slices to limp a bit, while still being crispy/cracker-like, that result might be achieved by using a higher hydration. Doing that should reduce the amount of flour and perhaps allow us to come up with a blend of your Kyrol flour and one of the whole wheat flours that would come closer to the Ultra-Thin nutrition data. It is also possible that the baker's percents for the rest of the ingredients would inch up from their current values.

In my experience, most cracker-style crusts get their flavor from high amounts of yeast and/or long fermentations, including long, room-temperature fermentations, where the byproducts of fermentation are major contributors to crust flavor. Also, salt and oil in sufficient quantities can be used to impart more flavor to the finished crust. In your case, I think that you could use more salt to at least partially overcome the blandness of the crust you noted. The commercial yeast you have been using is of such small quantity that it will have virtually no flavor contribution, or induce significant fermentation, to help overcome the blandness you mentioned. The leavening in your case comes from the baking soda. Increasing the amount of baking soda might add more crust flavor but I found that I did not like the types of flavors that baking soda imparts to a crust when used at high levels.

I will leave to you to decide how to proceed from this point. If you can tell me the characteristics you would like to see in an Ultra-Thin type clone, maybe we can come up with a dough formulation that might accentuate those characteristics and actually be an improvement over your last par-baked crust.

I might also note that it is not uncommon to experience buyer's remorse. It happens quite often that a pizza you loved when first sampled becomes less loved or even unloved when sampled at a later date. Our tastes and taste preferences evolve over time and change in unexpected ways. It's normal and usually unavoidable.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

The par-baked crust I did experience in NY did taste great to me at the time. I know since I have been making pizza, my tastes have changed a lot. I believe this is normal, when I really didn’t know what a good pizza should taste like.  I don’t know where to proceed from here.  I would like to get a better tasting crust, but don’t know really what I want.  I really like a crispy crust, so I don’t think that is the problem.  Maybe we shouldn’t even stay true to what a Ultra-Thin crust tastes like or what ingredients they use. If you have any ideas of how we can improve on the taste of a par-baked crust, I will try another attempt. If you think salt will improve the taste that is okay or maybe more garlic powder.  Maybe we should go into the par-baking shell business and come up with a better product.  Just kidding.  You have better ideas than I do, for making a better crust.

When the weather gets cooler are you going to attempt to make a par-baked skin?  It would be interesting to see what you think of the taste of a finished pizza crust, from a par-baked skin.

I did post on PMQTT two times to see if Tom Lehmann thinks this looks like a real par-baked skin, crust and pizza.  Since he has studied more about par-baked skins than I ever could, it would be interesting to see if he responds. Maybe if he responds I could ask him what he thinks a good par-baked crust should taste like and what they might use in those par-baked skins.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046#p62870

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Let me kick this one around a bit. I am scheduled to be on vacation next week, starting tomorrow, but I will bring my notes on this subject and my Wi-Fi-enabled notebook computer so that I can stay connected while I am away in case I can find time to devote to this project.

In due course, when the weather turns cooler, I plan to try making a few par-baked crusts based on the principles that we have studied and you have used, and maybe a few twists of my own. Based on my past experience with par-baked crusts, I have tended to view them as a step or two down from making a freshly-baked pizza. So, I have never had especially high expectations for par-baked crusts. However, I have not ventured before into the ultra-thin category. My thinking at this point is that maybe a commercial yeast version of a dough can be used to make ultra-thin crusts. You might recall that we discussed such an approach until we learned that Ultra-Thin was using baking soda. There are many possible options open to us, from a same-day dough to a cold fermented dough, using different amounts of yeast. I would also boost the amount of salt to more normal levels. Based on your results, and especially how you have demonstrated that it is possible to make flexible ultra-thin par-baked crusts, I think that it should be possible to come up with something that might be an improvement over what you have tried to date.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Just have fun on your vacation.  Don’t even think of this project.  It can come in due course. I am not in a hurry to do anything.

I think your ideas are better for the future in trying a commercial yeast version, and  maybe seeing if a dough can be fermented longer. I also think more salt would contribute to the taste of the crust. I have seen in the Mack’s project that the recent dough I attempted didn’t get near the bubbling in the skin, so there should be a way to make a better par-baked skin.

Have a nice vacation,

Norma

[norma427]

Tom Lehmann posted a response at PMQTT about the par-baked skin and pizza.  If anyone is interested in reading what he had to say, this is the link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=62983#p62980

Norma

[norma427]

Tom Lehmann answered another question I asked at PMQ think tank.  If anyone is interested they can see what he posted about more flavor in the finished par-baked crust.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=62986#p62985

Norma

[norma427]

Tom Lehmann responded to my thread again on PMQTT and explained how a crust is made using the “cold predded process”.  If someone is interested in reading what Tom Lehmann had to say in his post, this is the link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63059#p63052

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I have just returned from vacation and have been trying to catch up on Tom's posts on the ultra-thin crusts. Tom doesn't always proofread his posts and the PMQ Think Tank does not have a spell check feature, so I believe he meant to say "cold pressed" instead of "cold predded". Given that the letters "s" and "d" are next to each other on the keyboard, I believe Tom just mistyped what he meant to say. You will recall that he referred to the cold pressed method at his PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=61709#p61709.

Unless I am way off on the Ultra-Thin dough numbers, I tend to doubt that the method Tom describes in his PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=63052#p63052 applies to the Ultra-Thin par-baked product. My numbers suggest a fairly low hydration dough, not a "soft, flowable dough" or an "extremely soft dough" as Tom describes in his post. If the Ultra-Thin dough hydration is around 40%, I don't think the skins can be formed using cold pressing or even warm pressing methods. It is possible, of course, to alter the Ultra-Thin dough formulation to use a much higher hydration, but I think that you would lose all or a substantial part of the crispy, cracker-like crust characteristics.

You also raised the question with Tom on ways to get more crust flavor. This is a subject that came up some time ago at the PMQTT and elicited some of the highest page view numbers ever recorded at the PMQTT, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=23931#p22750. A good part of the thread centered on the use of starters/preferments, but many of the basic flavor-enhancing methods were summarized in the pizzanerd post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=23931#p23931. Of course, one might add beer, specialized beer yeasts, and wine to that summary to make it even more complete. The Ultra-Thin product only uses a few of the flavor-enhancing methods from that summary: white whole wheat flour, oil and garlic powder (plus baking soda, which isn't usually added for flavor purposes but can impart flavor to a crust).

Yogi Berra once said that when you come to a fork in the road, take it. I have the feeling that we have come to a fork in the road. That being the case, the main choices that now confront us are to continue with the Ultra-Thin reverse-engineering/cloning effort as originally conceived, or modify it, or even abandon it in favor of something else that you may have in mind as a result of the experiments you have conducted. Do you have a particular course in mind at this point?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I didn’t have time to look up “cold predded” and never thought about the keys on the keyboard being so close together and that might have been why Tom Lehmann might have misspelled in that post, but I can see he probably did misspell and it should have been “cold pressed”.

After thinking about what you just posted, I can understand that a ultra-thin par-baked crust wouldn’t fit the lines of cold pressing or even warm pressing, while trying to make a thin and crispy crust.

I did read over that whole thread awhile ago, that you referenced in your last post, when I was thinking of ways to increase the flavor of my regular Lehmann dough and had thought about some of the ideas.  That is why I wanted another way to try to make my crusts taste better at market.  I did notice yesterday, when I made the dough with the sediment of the beer, that the crust did have a different flavor.  I had wanted to see how that experiment would work out, in terms of a room fermented dough and also seeing if using just about 2 inches of leftover sediment would change the taste of the crust and also give enough rise that there would be some kind of bubbles in the rim. I wonder how wine would affect the taste.  That is something that might interest me.  I know somehow this Ultra-thin par-baked crust has to taste better.  I just wasn’t satisfied at all with the bland taste when baking the par-baked skin into a pizza.

I also think we have come to the fork in the road and should go another direction.  If you are interested in trying wine to see if that would make the crust taste better, it is okay with me.  I have no idea what will happen with that, but would be willing to experiment with the idea, if you think it could work.  Did you ever try wine in a crust before? 

I think I might have seen the sign or signal of a better crust ahead today, when I was at market making dough for tomorrow.  I really am not superstitious, but it rained really hard here this afternoon and was really windy.  When the storm was almost over there was a double rainbow outside.  I have never seen one before, but had to take pictures.  It was beautiful.  The pictures aren’t really what it looked like, but this is one of them.  Maybe this will be the “pot of gold” at the end of two rainbows.

Norma

[November]

When the storm was almost over there was a double rainbow outside.  I have never seen one before, but had to take pictures.  It was beautiful.  The pictures aren’t really what it looked like, but this is one of them.  Maybe this will be the “pot of gold” at the end of two rainbows.

FYI, "Double Rainbow" is currently an Internet meme.  It started with a crazy YouTube video, and has become a major topic of discussion on social media websites for the past few weeks.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI</a>

http://newsroom.mtv.com/2010/07/19/double-rainbow-song/

[norma427]

November,

Thank you for that information.    I didn’t know that “Double Rainbow” has become a meme and has been spreading so quickly from one person to another. I also watched the video of the song and if anyone is interested in hearing it, here is the link.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX0D4oZwCsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX0D4oZwCsA</a>

In all the years I have been here on earth, I have seen many rainbows, but never a double rainbow.  I had the door open at market and the storm was intense for awhile.  It was blowing over signs that had concrete on the bottom for handicapped people.  They were rolling around in the parking lot.  I like thunderstorms and like to watch rain, but don’t like the damage they can do.  I kept looking outside and was surprised to see the double rainbow.  I wish I had thought to take a video, but I didn’t.  My camera isn’t that great, and the “double rainbow” looked a lot better in person.  The first rainbow was so colorful and the second rainbow was beautiful, also.

These are a few more pictures I took of the “double rainbow”.

I wonder how many people have seen “double rainbows”?  I guess they are more common in some areas, than others.

Norma

[norma427]

last pictures of "double rainbow"

Norma

[Matthew]

Hi Norma,
I'm not sure if it was mentioned anywhere on this thread, but a while ago on the "best thing I ever ate" pizza edition on The Food Network, one place that made ultra thin pizza ran the dough through a pasta roller to get it started.

Matt

[November]

I wonder how many people have seen “double rainbows”?  I guess they are more common in some areas, than others.

Double rainbows are pretty common, but because the second band is generally so dim, probably few people ever notice them.  In fact, double rainbows are practically inevitable where there is bright sunlight immediately following the rain.  Where I used to live in Florida years ago, double rainbows would appear on a regular basis.  Rarer though, people have observed triple and quadruple rainbows in nature.  In the laboratory, rainbow bands on the order of hundreds have been created using lasers.

- red.november