Peter,
I was looking into several possibilities this morning for another attempt with a Ultra-Thin par-baked skin. I can see that using the starting point you referenced at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251 might be a good idea, with keeping in the same lines of hydration in dough formula and the same methods I used before to make a Ultra-Thin par-baked skin, but adding yeast instead of baking soda, more salt and maybe cold fermenting the dough to give it a better flavor, when the par-baked skin is baked into a crust. I might go with that method and start a new thread, but before I do, I am usually trying to find ways to do something differently. If you read down on what I have been researching this morning, do you have any ideas it possibly using apple cider vinegar, milk, and baking soda might work in trying another Ultra-Thin par-baked skin? Maybe also just trying some kind of all purpose flour and in combination with a small amount of IDY, with the other ingredients?
I looked up cooking or baking with alcohol and this is one report I found.
When you add alcohol to a recipe it all evaporates during cooking so there is none in the final dish
kitchen myth cooking urban legend
Here's another "common sense" myth that turns out to be false. Alcohol has a lower boiling point than water so it should all evaporate first, right? Nope - that's not the way it works. The alcohol will evaporate faster than the water but there will still be some left after even extended cooking. The table below shows just how much is left after different periods of cooking.
Preparation Method Percent of Alcohol Retained
Alcohol added to boiling liquid & removed from heat 85%
Alcohol flamed 75%
No heat, stored overnight 70%
Baked, 25 minutes, alcohol not stirred into mixture 45%
Baked/simmered, alcohol stirred into mixture:
15 minutes 40%
30 minutes 35%
1 hour 25%
1.5 hours 20%
2 hours 10%
2.5 hours 5%
The bottom line is that no one is ever going to get tipsy from alcohol in a cooked dish, but people who want to avoid all alcohol for religious or medical reasons need to be aware that some alcohol will remain even after long cooking.
Source: US Department of Agriculture Nutrient Data Laboratory
I was thinking about different ways to improve on the taste of this Ultra-Thin crust this morning and was thinking about what you had reference in Otis Gunn using vinegar in trying out dough. You had said he had mixed results with the vinegar. I also saw you did some experiments in using just vinegar to see if it would affect spotting of the dough, in your
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251 thread.
I was thinking about different times I had used baking soda and vinegar combine to make either cakes or cookies. This one old recipe, that is a favorite of mine, first you mix regular milk with vinegar until it get sour or it looks curdled. (Picture at bottom of scanned recipe using same ingredients of milk, baking soda and apple cider vinegar). I know from over using this recipe for years that milk has changed and you need to add more vinegar to make the milk curdle. Then to this mixture, you add scalding water, which you add baking soda is dissolved in and add that to the milk and vinegar mixture. What this creates is a foaming cup, that keeps going over the edge. It seems scalding water has no affect on the baking soda, as I am sure yeast would, in the baking process. When this cake or cupcakes are finished baking they have good texture and you can’t taste the baking soda or any sour taste. I have also noticed in other recipes that using a combination of apple cider vinegar, soda and milk, do create a good base for many other cookies, cakes or breads. This is another place I referenced a recipe using sour milk (vinegar, baking soda and milk)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9573.msg83753.html#msg83753 I am just wondering if there could be some kind of combination of these ingredients that might work, in trying another Ultra-Thin par-baked skin. I looked what really happens when baking soda and vinegar are mixed. I have seen what happens with my eyes, but didn’t really understand why it fizzes so much. This is what I found.
When Baking soda and vinegar are combined, it makes a fizzing reaction when the Acetic acid in the vinegar reacts with Sodium Bicarbonate (the chemical name for baking soda).
The result is some water, Sodium Acetate and Carbon Dioxide gas (the bubbles).
What actually happens is this: the acetic acid (that's what makes vinegar sour) reacts with sodium bicarbonate (a compound that's in baking soda) to form carbonic acid. It's really a double replacement reaction. Carbonic acid is unstable, and it immediately falls apart into carbon dioxide and water (it's a decomposition reaction). The bubbles you see from the reaction come from the carbon dioxide escaping the solution that is left. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air, so, it flows almost like water when it overflows the container. It is a gas that you exhale (though in small amounts), because it is a product of the reactions that keep your body going.
What's left is a dilute solution of sodium acetate in water.
Chemical reactions:
Acetic Acid: CH3COOH -> CH3COO- + H+
Sodium Bicarbonate: NaHCO3 -> Na+ + HCO3 -
H++ HCO3- -> H2CO3 Carbonic Acid
H2CO3 -> H2O + CO2
When the two ingredients baking soda and vinegar are mixed together, the vinegar (an acid) and the baking soda (a base) form carbon dioxide that produces the bubbles that make cakes rise. I wonder if Otis Gunn or anyone else has tried this method to produce more taste in the crust.
Norma
