Author Topic: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?  (Read 44748 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #400 on: July 20, 2010, 03:57:44 PM »
Did you ever try wine in a crust before? 


Norma,

I have not tried wine before to the best of my memory, although I have seen a few Mario Batali dough recipes calling for either red or white wine.  An example can be seen at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8731.msg75618#msg75618.

I have tried using beer in pizza dough before and while I thought the crust had a nice flavor I couldn't identify it as a beer flavor. I am not a big beer drinker but the beer I do drink tends to be too expensive to use to make pizza dough, especially if all or most of the formula water is replaced by beer. In a home setting, using beer or wine might be fun to try but you are not likely to see it at the commercial level. It is perhaps a combination of added cost that might be hard to recover and adverse reaction by people who do not want alcoholic beverages in their pizza dough, especially if children are likely to consume the pizzas. I have read of studies that purport to show that alcohol is not always completely burned off during cooking.

In my experience, the next step up from using preferments to get more crust flavor is to use natural starters/preferments, or possibly using a long room temperature fermentation or a super long cold fermentation. However, these methods are not easy to pull off consistently in a commercial environment. Another possibility is to use lactic acid in the dough, as member Trogdor33 describes at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9786.msg84940.html#msg84940. Member November has also used lactic acid. The late Otis Gunn experimented with using vinegar (acetic acid) in pizza dough, with mixed results as I recall. If you look at the labels of baked goods baked in some upscale supermarkets (the dough is often delivered to the stores from a central commissary), you will see examples of other additives used in lieu of more natural methods to achieve a certain flavor profile.

Other members have used Ovaltine (the Original version) or the Carnation Original Malted Milk powder in pizza dough to get a different/improved crust flavor. If you do some forum searches, you should be able to find examples of the use of these products.

As you might suspect, the above options apply to many types of pizza doughs, including ultra-thin doughs that you have been experimenting with.

Peter


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #401 on: July 20, 2010, 05:03:01 PM »
heres my thin crust. same dough just used a roller.
still experimenting with oven. burnt the cheese some still good  :)

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #402 on: July 20, 2010, 10:31:22 PM »
Matt,

I donít think a pasta maker has been mentioned on this thread before.  That is interesting to hear one place did use a pasta roller to get the dough started for their ultra-thin pizzas. 

Thanks,

Norma

November,

Thanks for telling me that double rainbows are pretty common, because the second band is so dim.  I guess I will have to look closer the next time I see a rainbow and maybe I will be able to notice the second band.  I never saw any rainbows created by lasers, but I believe that would be interesting to observe.

Norma

Peter,

That is interesting to hear that some studies have shown, that alcohol is not always completely  baked off during baking or cooking.  I always thought it was cooked or baked off.

After reading all of your options for making the crust taste better, I really donít know what to try with this ultra-thin par-baked skin.  I will have to think over all the options and read more about them. 

If you have any thoughts about the best approach for another attempt, let me know.  I have only experimented some with natural starters, some with super cold long fermentation and not much with long room fermented doughs. I think these approaches would take too much time to achieve more taste in the crust.  All the other options, I have no experience with.  (lactic acid, Ovaltine, Carnation Original Malted Milk powder, and vinegar).

I can understand the options can apply to the ultra-thin doughs.

Norma
   
sear,

I see you did get good results with using a roller for your crust.  Using your same dough gave you a very thin crust. 

Thanks for posting your pictures and how you achieved your thin crust.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 10:33:04 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #403 on: July 21, 2010, 10:49:04 AM »
After reading all of your options for making the crust taste better, I really donít know what to try with this ultra-thin par-baked skin.  I will have to think over all the options and read more about them. 

If you have any thoughts about the best approach for another attempt, let me know.


Norma,

There are so many different ways that you can go. However, as a starting point I think I would be inclined to adopt many of the principles and ideas discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html but tailoring them to the production methods you have been using to make the clone Ultra-Thin par-baked crusts. For example, you could design your own dough formulation to include commercial yeast only (that is, no baking soda) and considerably more salt than you have been using (you will recall that we talked about this possibility shortly before Tom Lehmann recently suggested it also at the PMQTT). You could also use the same hydration and oil baker's percents as you used with the clone Ultra-Thin doughs, and keep the same dough weights and the same thickness factor. That way, the physical characteristics would be similar to what you had with the clone Ultra-Thin skins. You would also keep the proofing box, two cutter pan assembly, and baking protocol. The amount of yeast to use would be based on the type of fermentation method you would like to use, that is, room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation, or possibly a combination of both. You could elect to keep or not keep the garlic powder and you might include some whole wheat flour in the flour blend. The skins might be assembled before fermenting or after, which are options discussed in the abovementioned thread.

Depending on how you decide to proceed and the extent of the deviations from the Ultra-Thin clone formulation, you might find it necessary to start a new thread.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #404 on: July 21, 2010, 11:44:42 AM »
Peter,

I was looking into several possibilities this morning for another attempt with a Ultra-Thin par-baked skin.  I can see that using the starting point you referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251 might be a good idea, with keeping in the same lines of hydration in dough formula and the same methods I used before to make a Ultra-Thin par-baked skin, but adding yeast instead of baking soda, more salt and maybe cold fermenting the dough to give it a better flavor, when the par-baked skin is baked into a crust.  I might go with that method and start a new thread, but before I do, I am usually trying to find ways to do something differently.  If you read down on what I have been researching this morning, do you have any ideas it possibly using apple cider vinegar, milk, and baking soda might work in trying another Ultra-Thin par-baked skin?  Maybe also just trying some kind of all purpose flour and in combination with a small amount of IDY, with the other ingredients?

I looked up cooking or baking with alcohol and this is one report I found.

When you add alcohol to a recipe it all evaporates during cooking so there is none in the final dish
   kitchen myth cooking urban legend

Here's another "common sense" myth that turns out to be false. Alcohol has a lower boiling point than water so it should all evaporate first, right? Nope - that's not the way it works. The alcohol will evaporate faster than the water but there will still be some left after even extended cooking. The table below shows just how much is left after different periods of cooking.
Preparation Method    Percent of Alcohol Retained
Alcohol added to boiling liquid & removed from heat    85%
Alcohol flamed    75%
No heat, stored overnight    70%
Baked, 25 minutes, alcohol not stirred into mixture    45%
Baked/simmered, alcohol stirred into mixture:    
15 minutes    40%
30 minutes    35%
1 hour    25%
1.5 hours    20%
2 hours    10%
2.5 hours    5%

The bottom line is that no one is ever going to get tipsy from alcohol in a cooked dish, but people who want to avoid all alcohol for religious or medical reasons need to be aware that some alcohol will remain even after long cooking.

Source: US Department of Agriculture Nutrient Data Laboratory

I was thinking about different ways to improve on the taste of this Ultra-Thin crust this morning and was thinking about what you had reference in Otis Gunn using vinegar in trying out dough.  You had said he had mixed results with the vinegar.  I also saw you did some experiments in using just vinegar to see if it would affect spotting of the dough, in your  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251       thread.

I was thinking about different times I had used baking soda and vinegar combine to make either cakes or cookies.  This one old recipe, that is a favorite of mine, first you mix regular milk with vinegar until it get sour or it looks curdled. (Picture at bottom of scanned recipe using same ingredients of milk, baking soda and apple cider vinegar). I know from over using this recipe for years that milk has changed and you need to add more vinegar to make the milk curdle.  Then to this mixture, you add scalding water, which you add baking soda is dissolved in and add that to the milk and vinegar mixture.  What this creates is a foaming cup, that keeps going over the edge.  It seems scalding water has no affect on the baking soda, as I am sure yeast would, in the baking process.  When this cake or cupcakes are finished baking they have good texture and you canít taste the baking soda or any sour taste.  I have also noticed in other recipes that using a combination of apple cider vinegar, soda and milk, do create a good base for many other cookies, cakes or breads. This is another place I referenced a recipe using sour milk (vinegar, baking soda and milk) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9573.msg83753.html#msg83753  I am just wondering if there could be some kind of combination of these ingredients that might work, in trying another Ultra-Thin par-baked skin.  I looked what really happens when baking soda and vinegar are mixed.  I have seen what happens with my eyes, but didnít really understand why it fizzes so much.  This is what I found.

When Baking soda and vinegar are combined, it makes a fizzing reaction when the Acetic acid in the vinegar reacts with Sodium Bicarbonate (the chemical name for baking soda).
The result is some water, Sodium Acetate and Carbon Dioxide gas (the bubbles).

What actually happens is this: the acetic acid (that's what makes vinegar sour) reacts with sodium bicarbonate (a compound that's in baking soda) to form carbonic acid. It's really a double replacement reaction. Carbonic acid is unstable, and it immediately falls apart into carbon dioxide and water (it's a decomposition reaction). The bubbles you see from the reaction come from the carbon dioxide escaping the solution that is left. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air, so, it flows almost like water when it overflows the container. It is a gas that you exhale (though in small amounts), because it is a product of the reactions that keep your body going.
What's left is a dilute solution of sodium acetate in water.

Chemical reactions:
Acetic Acid: CH3COOH -> CH3COO- + H+
Sodium Bicarbonate: NaHCO3 -> Na+ + HCO3 -
H++ HCO3- -> H2CO3 Carbonic Acid
H2CO3 -> H2O + CO2

When the two ingredients baking soda and vinegar are mixed together, the vinegar (an acid) and the baking soda (a base) form carbon dioxide that produces the bubbles that make cakes rise.  I wonder if Otis Gunn or anyone else has tried this method to produce more taste in the crust.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #405 on: July 21, 2010, 12:30:48 PM »
Norma,

I believe it was over the past year or so that I saw a re-run of a Food Network Food Detective segment with Ted Allen where a test was conducted to determine if there was residual alcohol left in a baked dish. I believe it was some sort of a flambť dish. The test showed residual alcohol.

On the matter of Otis Gunn's use of vinegar in the dough, I tried to find the PMQTT posts on the subject but was unable to find them. I believe they must be in the PMQTT archives that were put off limits when the PMQTT changed its forum software. My recollection is that Otis was not overly impressed with the results using the vinegar. If Otis ever tried using vinegar with anything else, like milk or baking soda, I would have remembered it if he posted his results at the PMQTT. Stuff like that jumps off of the page at me.

As for your proposal for making a modified Ultra-Thin dough formulation, the only way to tell if it will work is to try it. When I researched the use of baking soda in doughs, I frequently saw recipes calling for an acid of some sort, although, like the Ultra-Thin dough formulation, the acid is not mandatory. I would also have remembered reading it if someone tried the approach you are considering to make a pizza dough. I have never seen it in any of my readings. If you do decide to try the method you propose, you will have to adjust the hydration of the dough formulation to reflect the water content of whatever type of milk you decide to use and also the water component of the vinegar.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #406 on: July 21, 2010, 12:57:21 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for referencing the Food Network Food Detective segment with Ted Allen and how the test showed residual alcohol.  Just since you mentioned the alcohol in cooking and baking yesterday, it made me think more about it, because I always thought all the alcohol was cooked or baked off. 

I think I want to try this new approach with using milk, baking soda, apple cider vinegar, and a small amount of IDY, to see what happens, with the par-baked skins and then using them when baking them into a pizza.  I can understand the amount of milk used, will have to be part of the hydration.  Do you want me to start another thread and say it would be a modified Ultra-Thin parbaked skin or do you want me to stay on this thread?  I have no idea at this point of what kind of flour to use or what kind of formula to use to try this idea.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #407 on: July 21, 2010, 03:48:03 PM »
Norma,

I think I would start a new thread. That way, should we decide to resume the Ultra-Thin project at some point, the thread will retain its continuity without interruption by other forms or variants. If you are able to use many of the Ultra-Thin ideas and principles successfully, you can always link back to this thread.

I am not sure how much vinegar and milk to use since those ingredients are not often used to make pizza dough. However, I think I would use a high protein flour because of the added flavor you will get from the higher protein content. I have used mostly bread flour for my cracker-style doughs but high-gluten flour is also a good option--one that some people prefer over the weaker flours.

I will try to see if I can find information on how much vinegar can be used in pizza doughs. I suspect that milk can replace all or some of the formula water although I think I would only replace part of the formula water.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #408 on: July 21, 2010, 04:41:50 PM »

Peter,

I will start and new thread and link back to this thread, if I am successful in trying out this experiment.  I have used recipes for bread dough already that had buttermilk (which could be about the same as milk mixed with vinegar).  That recipe I posted for banana bread is a very old recipe that has been in my family and was used years ago, before people just went out and bought buttermilk.  I have used about 2 cups of milk in some whole wheat honey breads made with the other ingredients of whole wheat flour, all purpose flour, salt, vegetable oil, ADY, and baking soda, but I am not sure of what the hydration would be if I wanted to try this out.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #409 on: July 22, 2010, 12:35:32 PM »
Thanks for referencing the Food Network Food Detective segment with Ted Allen and how the test showed residual alcohol.  Just since you mentioned the alcohol in cooking and baking yesterday, it made me think more about it, because I always thought all the alcohol was cooked or baked off.

I never understood why people thought alcohol "baked or cooked off" 100% in food.  Surely where this assumption takes a wrong turn is that alcohol is merely dissolving in water, or the other way around.  One substance does not just dissolve into the other, rather they are actually miscible.  Unlike solvency, there is no proportion of alcohol and water that won't mix completely.  This means that no matter how disparate the ratio, or how much heat there is, you would have to evaporate almost every molecule of water to evaporate every molecule of alcohol.  That would be some tough eats.


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #410 on: July 22, 2010, 12:48:17 PM »
November,

I guess I have been around for a long while, but still have much to learn.  I can understand by you explaining, what happens now.  I always had used wine in baking ham and sometimes in making other food.  I just thought the heat would cook or bake off the alcohol. I had no idea that wasnít true, until this thread.  This thread has taught me a lot, not only about making the Ultra-Thin par-baked skin, but many other things.  I guess old dogs can learn new tricks.

Thanks for explaining what happens,

Norma
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:50:21 PM by norma427 »
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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #411 on: January 27, 2011, 10:13:33 PM »
Hello fellas! That includes Norma even though you are a woman, you are just one of the guys or fellas!  I have not posted in a long time but I love super thin pizza.   I love NYC pie because it's thin and got addicted to it and kept on trying to push the envelope.   I have not posted in awhile but I can say is that I thought I'd post to this thread.  I read many of the post but not all since it's so long.

Well I have been making some super thin pizzas of late. Not sure if the are 1/16 though.  I have to admit that I have cheated because I used store bought dough.  I make my own but sometimes just use store bought.  Bought some at Fresh & Easy.  Theirs has malt barley in it kinda like Sabarro's would.  With this dough I'm able to stretch it out paper thin to the point that you see through it when you hold it to the light or put it on a chopping board that has wood grain and pattern you can see through it.  It looks as thin as the one JackieTran was pictured with it and you can see his shirt through the dough.  But man it taste great super thin.  I know, I know it's cheating to use store bought pizza dough but I love it.

Pictures to follow one day.

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #412 on: January 27, 2011, 10:56:56 PM »
Hello fellas! That includes Norma even though you are a woman, you are just one of the guys or fellas!  I have not posted in a long time but I love super thin pizza.   I love NYC pie because it's thin and got addicted to it and kept on trying to push the envelope.   I have not posted in awhile but I can say is that I thought I'd post to this thread.  I read many of the post but not all since it's so long.

Well I have been making some super thin pizzas of late. Not sure if the are 1/16 though.  I have to admit that I have cheated because I used store bought dough.  I make my own but sometimes just use store bought.  Bought some at Fresh & Easy.  Theirs has malt barley in it kinda like Sabarro's would.  With this dough I'm able to stretch it out paper thin to the point that you see through it when you hold it to the light or put it on a chopping board that has wood grain and pattern you can see through it.  It looks as thin as the one JackieTran was pictured with it and you can see his shirt through the dough.  But man it taste great super thin.  I know, I know it's cheating to use store bought pizza dough but I love it.

Pictures to follow one day.


PizzaEater101,

I havenít tried the kinds of pies I posted on this thread for awhile, but I did try a V&N clone a few times.  I donít know if you are interested in seeing a V&N clone, but the TF is close to the 1/16" and the pizza was very good the few times I made it.  If you want to see where I posted about the V&N clone and where others also tried out the clone, my one Reply 140 is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117383.html#msg117383

This is where Peter (Pete-zza) revised the formula if you want to try this thin type of pie at Reply 285 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117734.html#msg117734

I am not sure what formula Chau used for his very thin pizza.  Maybe he will see this and also post.

I do like to be called ďone of the guysĒ.  Hope to see your pictures sometime. 

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #413 on: February 22, 2011, 04:21:20 PM »
Hi Norma,
I'm not sure if it was mentioned anywhere on this thread, but a while ago on the "best thing I ever ate" pizza edition on The Food Network, one place that made ultra thin pizza ran the dough through a pasta roller to get it started.

Matt

Yeah I think that place is called Dom's or something.  It's about 20 minutes from where I live yet I have never been there.  I want to though.  I was thinking of trying that pasta roller technique but I don't have a roller.  Looks good.  I liked that pizza that Mark Summers ate.

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #414 on: February 22, 2011, 04:25:06 PM »
PizzaEater101,

I havenít tried the kinds of pies I posted on this thread for awhile, but I did try a V&N clone a few times.  I donít know if you are interested in seeing a V&N clone, but the TF is close to the 1/16" and the pizza was very good the few times I made it.  If you want to see where I posted about the V&N clone and where others also tried out the clone, my one Reply 140 is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117383.html#msg117383

This is where Peter (Pete-zza) revised the formula if you want to try this thin type of pie at Reply 285 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117734.html#msg117734

I am not sure what formula Chau used for his very thin pizza.  Maybe he will see this and also post.

I do like to be called ďone of the guysĒ.  Hope to see your pictures sometime. 

Norma


Thanks for the links Norma.  I plan on making an ultra thin some time soon.   I'll definately take pics of the next one I make and post.  My camera though has problems ever since I went to Snoqualamie (Twin Peaks) Washington and dropped it.  Maybe time for a new cam.

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #415 on: February 22, 2011, 04:26:07 PM »
Norma, in the pics you posted off the rainbows did it stop raining completely or was there a mist in the air?  If it stopped completely I have to say you have a possible orb in your pics.  In one pic and maybe another, I have to go back and look but in at least one pic you have an orb.  That is if it was not misting or raining.  If it's an orb you have a ghost near you.

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #416 on: February 22, 2011, 04:30:11 PM »
Norma, in the pics you posted off the rainbows did it stop raining completely or was there a mist in the air?  If it stopped completely I have to say you have a possible orb in your pics.  In one pic and maybe another, I have to go back and look but in at least one pic you have an orb.  That is if it was not misting or raining.  If it's an orb you have a ghost near you.

It most certainly is not an 'orb'  it's either dust on the lenses or in the air. 

But I 100% guarantee its not an 'orb'

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #417 on: February 22, 2011, 04:53:31 PM »
Yeah not an orb, I've seen 'em before but was hoping it was for some reason.  Maybe it's not dust but a mystery pizza topping?

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #418 on: February 22, 2011, 05:38:51 PM »
Norma, in the pics you posted off the rainbows did it stop raining completely or was there a mist in the air?  If it stopped completely I have to say you have a possible orb in your pics.  In one pic and maybe another, I have to go back and look but in at least one pic you have an orb.  That is if it was not misting or raining.  If it's an orb you have a ghost near you.

PizzaEater101,

It wasn't raining or misting when I took those pictures of the rainbow.  I will have to see if I deleted those pictures on my computer and maybe blow them up to see what that is.  Whatever it was, it now is a mystery to me.  I am not afraid of ghosts, but never saw one.  I do know people that had strange things happen in their homes.  Whether they had ghosts or not, I don't know.  I don't live too far from the Gettysburg Battlefield and many people have reported they have seen ghosts there.

Norma
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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #419 on: February 22, 2011, 05:55:53 PM »
I still have the pictures of the double rainbow on my computer and did enlarge them.  I have no idea what those spots are.  The one enlarged looked like it is rising with streaks.  If anyone wants me to email the pictures to them to look at, let me know.  My camera isn't the best camera and I did take those pictures in a few minutes of each other.

Norma
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