Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

To use November's tool, I used the protein percents for the two flours along with the target flour mass (173.54 grams) and then kept entering target protein percents into the box until I got a value that gave me an allocation of the 173.54 grams that satisfied the total caloric value (612.6 calories). It took a lot of tries for me to get the correct value. I think my calculations are correct but they presume that my starting numbers are correct. Nonetheless, I think we are in the right church but I am not sure that we are in the right pew.

For further comparison purposes, I went through a similar analysis using the King Arthur all-purpose flour (KAAP), with a protein content of 11.7%, and the King Arthur regular whole wheat flour. I ended up with an allocation of 88.16 grams of the KAAP and 85.38 grams of the KA whole wheat flour, for a total protein percent for the blend of 12.93%. The percent of the KA whole wheat flour is 49.2%. That would be close to a 50/50 blend and may be too high. If so, that would suggest that Ultra-Thin is not using an all-purpose flour/whole wheat flour blend.

I look forward to the results you get using the blend I gave for the two flours you plan to use.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I think we are going in the right direction too, but are not exactly there.  It probably will take many attempts if we ever can get this Ultra-Thin shell right. 

Figuring out those numbers and just reading about them gives me mental fatigue.  I am also looking forward to seeing how the blend of the two flours work for the par-baked skin.

Norma

[norma427]

There must be some kind of apparitions around my area or something strange is going on, because today I took my proofing box to my local hardware store where I purchased the electrical things I needed to make my proofing box.  They are very helpful there and I asked if they could help me with the proofing box.  They said it looked to be wired right and tested it.  It worked the first time.   

I purchased some KA Whole Wheat Flour today.  They also had the KA White Whole Wheat flour for the same price.

Norma

[norma427]

I have been thinking about why my proofing box didn’t work before, when it did really work, when the man helped me at the True Value hardware store yesterday.  I thought something strange was going on. 

After playing around with it this morning, I now think I didn’t turn the dimmer switch far enough for the light to turn on.  The first time when I wired the proofing box wrong, it threw sparks out of the receptacle and tripped the breaker switch.  The second time I wired the proofing box, it did work, but when I tried it the next day it wouldn’t work.  I think I was afraid of turning the dimmer knob too far, in case it would trip the breaker or throw sparks, again.  I just kept quickly rotating the knob until it just turned on.

When I first tried the proofing box this morning, I didn’t turn the dimmer switch far enough and I thought “what the heck”, this proofing box isn’t working again.  I played around with the dimmer switch and did turn it farther.  It does work.  I wonder now if it did really work before in my second attempt and I didn’t turn the switch far enough.  At least I saved the dimmer switch and can try it again, if at some time something happens with the new dimmer switch. 

So much for a person, like me, that is electrically challenged. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

At least the folks at the hardware store didn't call the Department of Homeland Security after you showed up with your proofing box . You might want to check the perimeter of your property from time to time to see if you can spot anyone hiding in the bushes or behind trees with sunglasses on and occasionally speaking into their sleeves.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

At least the folks at the hardware store didn't call the Department of Homeland Security after you showed up with your proofing box . You might want to check the perimeter of your property from time to time to see if you can spot anyone hiding in the bushes or behind trees with sunglasses on and occasionally speaking into their sleeves.

Peter

Peter,

LOL, that was a good one.    I think the salesmen and ladies at the True Value Store, already think I am off my rocker.  I have dealt with them for so many years and have asked some weird questions and also asked for weird items to make things.  The man that helped me yesterday thought I was using the proofing box to take pictures.  I told him what I was using it for and he said he also makes bread dough and would keep the proofing box in his mind, to maybe try at some time. 

I have gone to our local hardware store when I wanted to fix my mower and not wanting to pay them to fix it and have asked many questions of what could be wrong with the mower.  In the end, I usually can get things fixed by just asking questions and then buying the parts.

At least at the local hardware store they are very friendly, knowledgeable, and will help answer any questions they can.  Not like a big box store where you fend for yourself. 

When I was unloading the proofing box from the van into a cart a lady looked really weird at me.  It doesn’t bother me. After you get so old, not much bothers me anymore.

All the dumb stuff I do, it’s a wonder noone is hiding in the bushes to watch what I am doing. 

Norma

[norma427]

Since it supposed to be hot here today, I went to the one shed and dug though the eaves of the shed to try and find another fan, to keep my kitchen cooler, when I attempt another Ultra-Thin skin today. 

What I found was interesting. I found in the back of the eaves after digging, something I had  remembered at one time, but completely forgotten about.  I don’t remember when this cooler, heater was purchased, but it seems to be able to cool or heat items. It has never been used.  I now wonder if anyone has ever tried this for a proofing box. 

Pictures below of the product.  Does anyone have any ideas about this AC/DC cooler and warmer and if it might work for a proofing box?

Norma

[norma427]

I decided to post part of this experiment while I went along, so I wouldn’t have so many pictures and writing to do at the end of this experiment.  The dough is proofing now at 100 degrees F.  The little window, I put on the proofing box, has condensation on the plexiglass window, so I guess that is a good thing. I put a container of hot water in the proofing box and let the proofing box come to exactly 100 degrees F. The finished dough temperature was 82 degrees F.  The finished dough ball weighed 8.7 oz., because not every little bit of ingredients could be scraped out of the food processor and blade.  I was tempted to add more water, but followed the formula.

I mixed all the ingredients with the food processor and then had to scrape the mixed ingredients out of the food processor and knead the dough ball by hand.  The dough is very scrappy looking and looks a lot darker than a Ultra-Thin skin.  Makes me now think, that the real Ultra-Thin par-baked skins are probably made with white whole wheat flour, if they do use whole wheat flour.  I had used whole wheat flour before and knew that it would probably make the dough darker.  I had reservations about trying whole wheat flour, because in my past experiences the dough does seem to become drier and darker  I don’t have enough experience with whole wheat flour to be able to make those decisions, if a white whole wheat flour might be used in the real Ultra-Thin dough.

I am going to let the dough ball proof for 1 hour, because after 20 minutes the dough is starting to moisten up some, but not enough in my opinion. There doesn’t appear to be any skin forming on the dough.

Pictures below

1. Ingredients mixed in food processor
2. Finished dough ball and weight
3. Dough ball in proofing box

Norma

[norma427]

I almost decided not to do this experiment today, because it is really hot (95 degrees right now) and I knew the kitchen would get hotter because of preheating the oven, but my curiosity got the better of me over the heat.  The kitchen went up to 90 degrees F, with the oven on.

I decided to let the dough ball proof for more than one hour.  I let it proof for 1 hr. 30 minutes, because it still didn’t fell soft enough in my opinion.  I did turn the dough ball over a few times to be able to let the other side get some humidity from the water that was in the proofing box.

I also decided to get out my heavy duty aluminum rolling pin, because in the last attempt, I had tried my wooden rolling pin and I decided I wasn’t satisfied with that rolling pin.  I might need to bring home my heavy duty wooden rolling pin from market.  That rolling pin is really heavy and in my opinion would be up to the task of rolling the dough better. This dough took the strength of Popeye to roll our.  I could tell when rolling it out, that the dough was drier or either the other method worked better, when proofing in the microwave.  The rolled out dough weighed 7.5 oz when cut.  It was then docked, not as heavily as the last time.  I decided not to give this rolled out skin a second proof, because I wanted to see what would happen, without a second proof.  The skin was again place between two cutter pans and baked on the middle rack, without any baking stone in the oven, for 4 minutes at 400 degrees F.  I kept checking on the skin with my IR thermometer and when it was 186 degrees F, I removed the pans and skin out of the oven.  Then put the skin on a screen and weighed it hot and the skin weighed 7.3 oz. The baked skin was drier than the last attempt.  It was still drier on the top, than the bottom.  The par-baked skin is darker than the real Ultra-Thin skins.  I took a video of the finished par-baked skin.         

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWgU6bseR0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWgU6bseR0</a>

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I was most curious from the outset of the latest experiment how the whole wheat flour would affect both the color of the dough/crust and the hydration. As soon as I saw the first photo of the dough, I knew that Ultra-Thin wasn't using much whole wheat flour, or else they may have switched to a new formulation with little or no whole wheat flour. It is quite possible that using a white whole wheat flour is being used, as earlier suggested, but I would have to look at the numbers for that flour to see if it fits the Ultra-Thin nutrition profile when combined with the Kyrol high-gluten flour. I also plan to look at the caloric values of other flours where available to see if there is a flour out there that, when combined with a small amount of whole wheat flour, would pass muster from the standpoint of the Ultra-Thin nutrition data and wouldn't darken the color of the dough in any noticeable way.

I wonder how Ultra-Thin would respond if you asked them why the crusts are not darker if they contain whole wheat flour.

I was not surprised by the difficulty you had rolling out the dough with a rolling pin. What I have done in the past on several occasions was to use a temperature of around 120 degrees F, and sometimes a bit higher, with my proofing box since the higher temperature made rolling out the dough much easier. Professionals with sheeters/rollers do not have to get the dough warm to roll it out.

The weight loss this time was only 2.7%. That is good to know although a few more data points on this measurement might help us adjust the dough formulation.

I will update you once I have a chance to digest what you did and to look at the specs for other flours. At least we can rule out the use of whole wheat flour at the levels you used. Remember, most of the caloric value comes from the flour blend with a modest amount (about 10% of the total) from the olive oil. The caloric value contributed by the garlic powder is very small. The remaining ingredients contribute no calories.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I also was curious about using the whole wheat flour and when I went to purchase it, I had thought about purchasing the white whole wheat flour, but thought that might not fit into the numbers.  I know from the few different times I have used Whole Wheat Flour, that I usually need to up the hydration some.  Since I am not that experienced with flours, I didn’t really know what to expect. 

I don’t know if the Ultra-Thin Shell Company will respond to me again or not.  They are probably getting sick of me by now.  I can’t think of any good line to give them, why I need to know that information. 

I had wanted to roll out the dough more, but by that time, my arms were tired and no matter how much I tried, the dough didn’t want to roll anymore. I still can’t judge how much excess dough to cut off to get the final skin weight numbers to be right, but after some practice, maybe I will get better. I will keep the information you just gave me in mind, about putting the temperature up for the proofing box the next time.  At least the proofing box did work after all the problems I had with it.

I will remember that the caloric value comes mostly from the flour and the most of the rest from the olive oil.

At least I have learned a lot today and will think about what I might try different in the next attempt. 

Thanks for going over the different flour specs again.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I took a quick look at the General Mills flours since they are one of the few millers who post the specs for most of their flours online. The GM flours that tend to be both bleached and bromated are their spring wheat flours. I saw bleached and bromated high-gluten flours and bread flours but not all-purpose flour, although I am pretty certain that they sell bleached and bromated all-purpose flours on the professionals side of their business. I believe they have a bleached and bromated all-purpose flour on the retail side.

I think what would help me most at this point is to get at least one more data point on the extent of dough loss during the par-bake. The reason this is important because it governs all of the numbers. Unfortunately, for each value of weight loss, all of the numbers have to be re-done--about one or two pages of new calculations. The two weight loss values we now have on hand are around 5% and around 2.7%, but each of these numbers was based on a different par-bake method (cutter pans on a stone and cutter pans alone). I'd like to get at least one more number using the most recent method since it takes a lot of time and work to re-do all of the calculations.

Since your recent efforts yielded skins that were a bit on the light side, next time you might want to use a bowl residue compensation factor to increase the dough ball weight. Using a higher proofing box temperature should be a help also, along with using a flour blend with a lot less whole wheat flour, if any.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for taking a look at the General Mills flours.

I will make another par-baked skin, but don’t think I want to use the Whole Wheat Flour.  I think I will just go back to the same formula without the whole wheat.  I didn’t know that the dough loss during the par-bake would govern all the numbers.  I can see how hard it is to do all the calculations.  I wouldn’t even be able to do the first page.  I will use a bowl residue for the next attempt.  I didn’t cut much off the whole skin today, only about a 1/4" and even less in some places.  When I measured the diameter all around the finished par-baked skin, they was all different.  One place it was 13", another 12 3/4" another 12 1/4" and the last measurement I took was 12 ½".  I kept putting the ruler across the par-baked skin at different places. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I think I will just go back to the same formula without the whole wheat. 

Norma,

That should be fine. However, at some point you might want to revisit the use of some whole wheat flour. If the weight loss is closer to 2.7% than 5%, that should mean less flour than the formulation I gave you, which could alter the mix of white flour and whole wheat flour (either form), possibly with a lot less whole wheat flour, yet fit the Ultra-Thin nutrition profile. However, I won't know if that is a possibility until I see the next weight loss number.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Do you want me to use the same formula I did today in the next attempt, so you can see the weight loss?  If you do, I will use the same formula. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you want me to use the same formula I did today in the next attempt, so you can see the weight loss?  If you do, I will use the same formula. 

Norma,

You might use the same dough formulation but without the whole wheat flour (i.e., with all white flour) or with a lot less whole wheat flour, say, 8%. Tomorrow I will rework the dough formulation to add a bowl residue compensation.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You might use the same dough formulation but without the whole wheat flour (i.e., with all white flour) or with a lot less whole wheat flour, say, 8%. Tomorrow I will rework the dough formulation to add a bowl residue compensation.

Peter

Peter,

When you rework the dough formulation, I will try whatever you decide is okay.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I have been doing a lot of thinking and playing around with the numbers some more this morning. That is what has delayed my response.

By way of recapitulation, our original numbers assumed that we were using only white flour, such as All Trumps or Kyrol. Based on all of the calculations I did, I believe that I had a fairly good idea as to the caloric value of the flour used by Ultra-Thin to make a 14" par-baked crust. However, until you got the ingredients list from Ultra-Thin, we did not contemplate a blend of white flour and whole wheat flour. At this point, we don't know the types and brands and the specs for the flours that Ultra-Thin is using. Consequently, we have arbitrarily restricted ourselves to the types and brands of flour you have on hand. The difficulty operating in this context is that we are essentially trying to solve an equation that has three unknown variables--the total weight of the flour blend, the weight of the white flour, and the weight of the whole wheat flour. Moreover, the combined caloric values of the two flours have to equal the caloric value of the flour blend that I calculated based on the data at hand. There are many possible combinations of flours that can meet the total caroric requirement. What that means as a practical matter in our case is that the results you get will be dictated by the particular flours you are using and their quantities, as well as the methods you use to make the par-baked crusts. I still think we are in the right church but we are still trying to find the right pew.

For the next iteration, I would like to see you use a small amount of whole wheat flour since that comports with what we know about the Ultra-Thin dough formulation based on their ingredients list. I am somewhat concerned that if we leave out the whole wheat flour that might affect the weight loss during baking. And that would affect all of the numbers that flow from that value. With this objective in mind and using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I have set forth below a revised version of the last dough formulation you used but where I increased the total amount of dough so that you have a better chance of achieving a 13" dough skin that weighs 7.70 ounces. Rather than using a bowl residue compensation factor as I earlier proposed, I decide instead to just increase the starting skin size to 14 1/2" rather than 14". Hopefully, that difference will be sufficient for you to get the proper weight (7.70 ounces) for the 13" skin.

Based on your last experiment using the regular KA whole wheat flour and some new calculations I came up with this morning, I suggest that you use 7.75% whole wheat flour. On paper, that amount of whole wheat flour, along with your Kyrol high-gluten flour, seems to fit the Ultra-Thin nutrition profile. Also, since 7.75% is a modest quantity, it might also give us a clue as to whether we are still too high.

Flour Blend*(100%): Water (40.8412%): IDY (0.011%): Salt (0.9273%): Olive Oil (3.27115%): Baking Soda (0.35%): Garlic Powder (0.40%): Total (145.80065%):

186.16 g  |  6.57 oz | 0.41 lbs 76.03 g  |  2.68 oz | 0.17 lbs 0.02 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.01 tsp | 0 tbsp 1.73 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp 6.09 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp 0.74 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp 271.42 g | 9.57 oz | 0.6 lbs | TF = 0.057978

*The Flour Blend comprises 92.5% Kyrol bleached and bromated high-gluten flour (172.20 grams/6.07 ounces) and 7.5% KA regular whole wheat flour (13.96 grams/0.49 ounces)
Note: Dough is for a 14 1/2" skin from which a 13" skin weighing 7.70 ounces is to be cut; thickness factor = 0.057978; no bowl residue compensation factor

As I was evaluating the results of your last experiment, and particularly protein values, I theorized that it is possible that Ultra-Thin is using a lower protein flour (the white flour) rather than a high-gluten flour such as the Kyrol. This is a possibility that I will soon be looking into. However, I think that it is important to proceed along the lines mentioned above for the next experiment since the results you get, and particularly the weight loss data, is a critical piece of data that drives just about all of the other data.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I can understand since we don’t know the types of brands of flour the Ultra-Thin Shell company uses and therefore don’t know the total weight of the flour blend, white flour or the weight of the wheat flour, it is hard to figure this all out.  Do you think I am going about doing the par-bake of the skin correctly, or do you think I should try a different oven temperature.  I have thought about that and don’t really know if a higher temperature, lower temperature or a longer or shorter bake will affect the weight loss in the bake.  Would there be a difference in the same formula if I would bake at a different temperature or go about par-baking differently?  I don’t really understand if there would be any effect or not, but would think there would be.  I am trying to understand any variables that could go into trying this project and also want to stay in line with the best approach.

If I remember tomorrow, I am going to bring my scale home from market.  It can weight much more accurately and maybe can give a better reflection on weights whether weighing out ingredients or weighing the pre-baked or par-bake skin.

It’s good you have found while doing the calculations on paper that the amount of whole wheat flour, along with Kyrol high-gluten flour seem to fit the Ultra-thin nutrition profile. 

That is interesting that you were theorizing that it could be possible that the Ultra-Thin Shell company is using a lower protein white flour, other than a high-gluten flour. 

I will proceed probably over the weekend with my next attempt with the formula you have set-forth today.  If you have any other thoughts, let me know. 

Thanks for going though all these calculations to try and come up with a formula. 

I also think we are still searching for the right pew, but in time maybe will find it. In general terms, I think at least we are on the right path to get there.

Norma