Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

As I mentioned recently, I was not able to find any bromated all-purpose flours in the supermarkets near me. Moreover, when I did some extensive follow-up Google searches today, I was unable to identify a single source of such flours. That led me to wonder whether there is such a thing as a bromated all-purpose flour. So, in search of an answer, I decided to send an email to "Tim the Baker", from the General Mills website at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Home.aspx. I simply asked Tim if there is such a thing as a bromated all-purpose flour. You might recall that I mentioned earlier in this thread that when I looked at the GM flours, the ones that were bleached and bromated tended to be the spring wheat flours.

Shortly after I sent the email to Tim, he responded as follows:

Peter,
As all-purpose flours are milled from hard winter wheat, they are typically not bromated.  We do not have any bromated all purpose flours, nor am I aware of any in the industry.  We do, however, have bleached all purpose flours.  If you truly feel you need a bleached and bromated flour, you would need to move into a spring wheat flour such as our Full Strength flour (12.6% protein).  That would be the lowest protein flour of ours that is both bleached and bromated.

Tim

Although I had originally discussed the Full Strength flour earlier in this thread, starting at Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg100071.html#msg100071, that was before we learned that Ultra-Thin was using whole wheat flour as part of its flour blend. I plan to take a look at the specs for that flour (at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FullStrength%20Enr%20Mal%20Bl%20Bro53381.doc) to see if that flour can be combined in some way with the KA white whole wheat flour such that the blend meets the requirements of the Ultra-Thin nutrition data.

I'm glad I sent the email to Tim. Now I know that there apparently is no such thing as a bromated (and bleached) all-purpose flour. It must have been a bromated bread flour that I remembered or it's possible that I confused bromated with bleached. So, if anyone ever stops me on the street and asks me if there is such a thing as a bromated all-purpose flour, I will be able to give a correct answer.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

With all these formula changes and all what has happened on this thread, I completely forgot about you mentioning the GM Full Strength flour as coming close to meeting the numbers given in the Ultra-Thin Nutrition Facts.  When you mentioned that the GM Full Strength was low in saturated fat, I didn’t think much about that at the time.  In the following posts you also mention the best approach would be to address the flour first and that the Ultra-Thin Company could also have a proprietary flour milled for their requirements.

It’s good you have put your thinking hat on again to correspond with “Tim the Baker”. Your email sent to Tim, just might lead us in the right direction.  I am glad you sent the email to Tim. Looks like we might need to change direction, again.  Like I said before, this whole flour thing can get very confusing.  LOL, I wonder who the person would be that might stop you on the street to ask you if there is such a thing as bleach and bromated all-purpose flour.  Never in a million years is someone going to ask you that question, but at least you would be able to give the correct answer.

Back to the drawing board for you to find out if the GM Full Strength specs might work somehow in a blend with KA Whole White Wheat Flour.

Good luck,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I have decided to wait until the results of your next test before doing more calculations with the Full Strength and KAWWW flours, or any other flour combination. I'd also like to look to see if there are any other bleached and bromated flours with less than 12.6% protein available from other millers.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

That is fine with me if you wait to do more calculations on more flours.  In my opinion you did enough calculations for a long while.  If the calculations would have been up to me, they never would have gotten done. I appreciate you can do the calculations.

Is there any other mills you would like me to check on whether there are any other bleached and bromated flours with less than 12.6% protein?  I know when I talked to the quality assurance lady at our local mill, she said they could add bromates if customers wanted.  Maybe that is what the Ultra-Think Company is doing, using a proprietary flour. 

I will try to remember to bring my scales, big rolling pin, and anything else I might need for home use for the next attempt home, tomorrow.  This ungodly heat and humidity is almost unbearable.  Now my air-conditioning in my van went on the fritz.  I need to also pickup flour tomorrow at C.O. Nolt and Sons, Inc.  Hopefully I will make it though the heat and humidity tomorrow, without air-conditioning.  When I was growing up there wasn’t any air-conditioning in my home, and I never minded the heat or humidity, but since I am used to air-conditioning, life is a lot different without it.  Our local newspaper has reported there are many heat related emergencies due to this heat and humidity.  Just one more variable.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

There are just too many variables. There is the weight of the Flour Blend, which we calculated as best we could based on the dough weight losses, and then there is the matter of which types and brands of flours are used in the Flour Blend and in what quantities. Then the flours have to have the right caloric value per 100 grams and the protein values also have to have the right values (per 100 grams of flour weight) to match up with the Ultra-Thin nutrition information. I have been using the weight losses from your experiments to calculate a Flour Blend weight. As the Flour Blend weight changes, the values of just about everything else changes and have to be recalculated, including the oil, salt, baking soda and garlic powder. Then there are the effects of rounding. It is unlikely that we are going to get all of the variables resolved. But, I am hoping that the differences aren't so dramatic as to make a big difference in the results. Thin crusts are more sensitive than other pizza crusts, however, because the thickness of the crust largely determines the textural characteristics of the crust, such as the crispiness, chewiness, degree of foldability, and how cracker-y the crust is.

For your additional information, this morning I sent a follow-up email to Tim (Tim Huff) asking him if he knows of any other commercial brands of bread flour that have protein contents below 12.6%. He responded as follows:

Not that I am aware of…  although not a hard “rule”, most winter wheats (comprising most of the flours below 12%) are not bromated.  The only exception to this, that I have seen, is in the Texas market where I have seen some bromated winter wheats…  Sorry that I can’t help much on that.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I can understand there are too many variables.  All that you have just mentioned: the flours or blends need to have the right caloric value and also the right protein values for 100 grams.  I hope in this next attempt the weight losses don’t change too much, because this all is giving you too much work in figuring this all out. 

I didn’t know that thin crusts are more sensitive than other pizza crusts, but since you mentioned that, it makes sense to me now.

In my opinion, the last two attempts were something like the real Ultra-Thin par-baked skins.  I haven’t made a pizza out of the last par-baked skin to taste, since I don’t want to turn on my oven more than needed.  I am not sure how that crust is going to taste, but the attempt before that, did compare well in terms of flavor and terms of flexibility, with a real Ultra-Thin shell, when baked into a pizza.

I also find it interesting that you have emailed “Tim the Baker”, again and found out what he had to say.  It’s interesting that he said not that he is aware of, but not a “hard” rule. I wonder why the exception would be in Texas with the hard winter wheat which might be bromated. I would be curious to find out why they would sell some bromated winter wheat flour only in Texas. Thanks for the follow-up.

I am anxious to try this next attempt.  Hopefully it will go well.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I wouldn't worry about the numbers and the calculations. They go with the territory.

To be more accurate, I perhaps should have said that the crust thickness and the hydration largely govern what you will get in a cracker style crust. If you are off on either, you can end up with something that you didn't really want--like a soft cracker crust that doesn't crunch when you run the pizza cutter through it. But at least if you get close to what you are after, you can make a few adjustments to inch closer to the desired crust.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I brought my scale, heavy duty rolling pin and a water mister home for the next attempt this weekend for a par-baked skin and the formula you set-forth.   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102799.html#msg102799

This rolling pin should make rolling out the skin easier.

Norma

[norma427]

I am taking another attempt at a par-baked skin today.  I decided to post as I go, as I did last week, so I won’t have too much to post at the end.  The dough for the par-baked skin in now in the proofing box.  Right now the temperature of the proofing box is at 110 degrees F.  There is also water in another container in the proofing box.

All the equipment and ingredients were gathered together before starting this experiment.  The only things not pictured are the oven, tongs, knife, screen to weigh baked skin on, and the proofing box.  It sure take a lot of things to make such a small par-baked skin. 

The dough was first mixed in the food processor, then hand kneaded.  The dough looks lighter this time and more close to a real Ultra-Thin par-baked skin. The temperature of the dough was 80 degrees F.  The dough ball weighed 9.4 oz.

The other pictures show the weight of the finished dough, and the dough ball.

Norma

[norma427]

I kept watching the dough ball though the little window in the proofing box and after a hour of proofing at 110 degrees F, I felt the dough ball.  It seemed moister than last week. I don’t know why, but the dough ball appears to be getting darker, while in the proofing box. Maybe the skin is getting drier and forming a skin, but doesn’t seem to be. I then decided to turn up the dimmer switch and let the dough ball proof some more.  The temperature of the proofing box would only go to a little over 115 degrees F.  I could have gotten a higher wattage light bulb out of the closet, but decided to let the dough ball proof at 115 degrees F.  I had made sure before measuring the ingredients or skin that I had the pizza controller leveled, as can be seen in the picture.

I left the dough in the proofing box for a total of 1 hr. 45 minutes. When I removed the dough out of the proofing box, I decided to weigh it to see if it might have lost some weight while proofing.  It then weighed 9.3 oz.  The dough was then taken out and rolled with the heavy rolling pin.  I don’t know if it was because I proofed the dough at a higher temperature or the heavy rolling pin helped, but it was easier to roll out.  I measure the dough after rolling and it was 14 ½ “ in diameter, but sure wasn’t perfect.  I was trying to decide how to cut the dough to make it exactly 7.70 oz.  Since I wasn’t good at this before, I decided to let the dough on the scales and let the dough folded and then cut into a circle.  It worked and when I had cut enough dough off the skin, it was almost in a perfect circle.  I then docked the skin, misted the top of the skin and place the two cutter pans (skins between them) on the lowest rack of my oven.  The temperature again was 400 degrees F.  I kept checking on the par-baking skin and when it reached 183 degrees F, I thought I should soon get it out, but shut the oven door for about 15 more seconds.  When I measured the temperature with my IR gun the temperature then had climbed to 186 degrees.  I quickly removed the par-baked skin out of the oven.  The par-baked skin was weighed right out of the oven and it weighed 7.5 oz.  This par-baked skin seems better in terms of top of the skin.  It doesn’t seem as dry as my last attempt.

Pictures below and a video I took of the par-baked skin. When I went to take the first video of the par-baked skin my memory stick was full, halfway though the video, so I had to delete some pictures and take the video again.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AETfCTcMBdQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AETfCTcMBdQ</a>

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

last of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Based on the weight data you provided, it looks like the weight loss during the parbake was (7.70-7.50)/7.70 = 2.58%. That is a little bit less than the last time but it is good that the values are at least close. My recollection is that the last skin was par-baked in a middle oven rack position, whereas the latest skin was par-baked on the lowest oven rack position. Is that correct?

You did a nice job with all of the numbers, especially coming up with a way of getting the unbaked skin at 7.70 ounces. Our precision seems to be better than Ultra-Thin's, given the different weights of their par-baked crust.

As usual, I am interested in getting the post mortems on the latest crust. Can you describe it in relation to a real Ultra-Thin crust, in terms of overall "feel", color, thickness, flexibility, aroma, etc., as well as any anomalies or discrepancies? And will you freeze the latest crust and use it later?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

You are right, the last time I baked on the middle rack and this time I baked on the bottom rack.  I baked on the bottom rack this time, to see if the top of the par-baked skin would stay moister and I also misted the top of the skin, before putting the top cutter pan on. 

Do you know if your proofed doughs ever lost a little weight while proofing. Do you think the proofing might have dried out the dough skin a little. Also do you know if the dough ball getting darker in the proofing box was because it might have been getting a skin?  When I removed it from the proofing box it looked like it might have had a little skin on it, but when I rolled it out it quickly went away.

Thanks for saying I did a good job with the numbers.  I was trying to think of a way to be able to get the par-baked skin at the right weight this time, since in the past, I was having problems with that.  At least this par-bake skin was the right weight.  My last attempts weren’t. We might get more accurate than the real Ultra-Thin par-baked skin in the weight. 

The feel of the par-baked skin, felt about the same as a real par-baked skin in my opinion.  The color is a little darker, in comparison to a real Ultra-Thin skin.  I did freeze the par-baked skin.  The flexibility felt about the same as a real par-baked skin.  The aroma smelled good, but I haven’t tasted it as of this time. I don’t know right now if I can say anything went wrong, but will think about that.  I was glad how well this experiment went today.  I did freeze the crust and if I have time tomorrow will try to take a video of a real Ultra-Thin par-baked skin, the attempt from last week and the par-baked skin I made today.  I would like to make the both par-baked skins into pizzas tomorrow, if I find time. This par-baked skins only took 3 minutes 15 seconds to bake, so if this does really work out someday, people could just have them in the freezer and make a quick pizza.  I don’t know if they would want to go though all the steps to make a par-baked skin though.  The feel of the par-baked skin today felt like a real Ultra-Thin skin.

Do you also see anything I could have done differently today?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

It has taken us 19 pages and 374 posts to get this far, but overall I think we have done a creditable job, or got lucky, in being able to at least get the physical characteristics essentially right--including weight, crust thickness (including thickness factor), size and flexibility. Moreover, you did not have to do endless experiments. And each experiment taught us something new and useful and valuable. I think what helped us a great deal is having real Ultra-Thin crusts to examine, play around with and to compare with your results. I think also that the use of the two cutter pans and baking the crusts only to the point of the starches/protein gelatinizing was a lucky stroke that saved us a lot of time and effort.

As I see it, the main missing link at this point is the types and brands of flours used by Ultra-Thin. However, as I have discovered before with other reverse-engineering/cloning exercises, there seems to be a fair amount of give and take in the amounts of ingredients used without showing up in the final product. It would be nice to try using a lower protein flour, like a bromated bleached bread flour, along with a white whole wheat flour, if only to try to be more faithful to the Ultra-Thin ingredients and quantities, but I believe that it should be possible to balance the amounts of the Kyrol flour and the KA regular whole wheat flour to get comparable results. We may learn differently when you try making a pizza from the latest crust and have an opportunity to test the crust for flavor, taste (like or don't like), color, aroma and texture (e.g., soft, chewy, crispy, cracker-like, or some combination).

On the matter of the dough coloration, one thing you might try is brushing the dough with a bit of oil before going into the proofing box. You might recall from the many patents we read that is was a common step to oil the dough balls as they were proofing and before forming into skins. Since that surface oil will usually migrate into the dough, it perhaps won't interfere with the humidification function.

You asked whether I have experienced a reduction of dough weight as a result of the proofing process. A long time ago, I did do some before and after weighings and there appeared to be some weight loss during proofing but my recollection is that it was slight. I also wasn't sure that my scale was accurate enough to really detect the difference.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I know this has been many pages and posts, but overall in my opinion it really didn’t take us very long, compared to the time it could have taken us to try something like this.  Not knowing anything about par-baked skins and knowing what I have found out from this thread is interesting to me, because I like to learn about news ways to try pizzas or pizza products. I also think being able to see a real Ultra-Thin crust helped.  I think I would still be over baking and only baking on the stone or something similar. The patents and other information you found really helped this project along and also you being able to do all the calculations.  I don’t think if we hadn’t read about how starches and protein gelatinizing, this wouldn’t have been as successful.  I sure didn’t know anything about that before. I have learned a lot from this thread.

I think we will also see if we are closer after I baked the skins and make pizzas.  I don’t really think that will be a real problem though.

Your idea is good about the coloration changing in the dough that was proofing.  I always oil my dough, but didn’t know if I needed to oil this dough or not, because it was going into a proofing box.  I don’t have any other experiences with proofing boxes, so I can see the oil can help keep the dough moist.

I wasn’t sure until today, but really don’t think this par-baked skin needs a second proof.  Time will tell that, also.  I wasn’t even sure if I was proofing to short or long enough time.  I didn’t know what to look for.

It’s up to you if the bake of the skins into pizzas is successful, if you want to try another flour blend for a formula.  The only problem at this point, until I bake the pizzas, is that the crust is darker.  I wouldn’t know what to expect in using other flours or blends. I don’t know if the different blends would affect the taste of the crust or not.

Thanks for your help on this journey.  It’s been a nice ride.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

One of the advantages of using white whole wheat flour over regular whole wheat flour is that it is lighter in color and milder in flavor than the regular whole wheat flour. In fact, these attributes often make it possible for parents to get their kids to eat baked goods with the white whole wheat flour that they wouldn't touch if made with the regular whole wheat flour. Yet the white whole wheat flour has essentially the same nutritional value as the regular whole wheat flour. You can read more about the KA white whole wheat flour and its differences from regular whole wheat flour at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/about/documents/whitewholewheat.pdf.

I will hold back for now on modifying the basic dough formulation pending the results you get with the final pizza and, based on those results, a decision on whether to try the white whole wheat flour. If you stay with the regular whole wheat flour, the recent weight loss data you provided would not require a material change in the formulation you used. If you go with the white whole wheat flour, that is likely to require revising the dough formulation.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I see by looking at the pdf document that Tod Bramble sent me there isn’t a lot of difference in the White Whole Wheat Flour and the Whole Wheat flour, except there is a difference of about 1% in the ideal protein level.  I also see the White Whole Wheat flour is milled from Hard White Wheat and the Whole Wheat Flour is milled from Hard Red Wheat.  Maybe sometime I am going to research flours and get pictures to see what the different wheats look like.  When looking at the Unbleached KAAP flour there is an ideal protein of 11.7%.  For the KA unbleached bread flour there is an ideal protein of 12.7%.  I don’t understand how these different flours have different ideal proteins, but have the same moisture maximum of 14%.  Maybe someday I will be able to understand all these flours and what the numbers mean.

Thanks for providing the pdf document that says that the reddish pigment that contains phenolic acid, can be perceived as the stronger astringent taste. I never used KA white whole wheat flour, but can believe that children and some adults would like the flavor better of products made with a milder taste.

When I make the pizzas with the par-baked skins do you want me to measure the ingredients and then weigh the pizza after the bake?  Are there any numbers you need there?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

For a good basic article on wheat flour, you might want to read http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/69/04712685/0471268569.pdf. From that article, you will see the reason why the moisture content of domestic flours (all flours) is kept at around 14%. Specifically, above that value "the flour is susceptible to fungus and mold growth, flavor changes, enzyme activity, and insect infestation." European flours have higher moisture content, about 15.5%. See, for example, the 15.5% moisture content ("umidata") for the San Felice 00 flour as noted at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328. Flour can lose moisture content if it is held in storage or in transport under conditions that cause the flour to dry out.

For the finished pizza, you might want to follow the general guidelines given by Ultra-Thin at http://www.ultrathinpizza.com/pdfs/bakinginstructions.pdf. As previously noted, they forgot to give the sauce and cheese quantities for the 14" crust size, but it looks like the values for the sauce and cheese should be 4-5 ounces. If your crust was 13", I would use 3.5-4.5 ounces of sauce and cheese. If you deviate too much above those values and/or if you weigh down the pizza with toppings, that can affect the texture of the final crust.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for referencing that pdf document.  In the next few days I will read over it and probably will understand more about flours.  Since you have explained to me about why all flours are kept at 14%, I already understand that more.  I discussed flour and how the local place I purchase flour does store flours yesterday.  I know the man on the dock where I pick up the KASL and because of the heat, I had asked him if the warehouse is air-conditioned.  He said, no it wasn’t.  I know where I purchase my flour they don’t sell a lot of KASL and mostly sell All Trumps, Kyrol or a lot of flours for people that bake for their businesses.  I think more people buy the All Trumps or Kyrol because they are cheaper. I just wonder sometimes how long the flour I purchase is just sitting there with no air-conditioning. The flour also isn’t in air-conditioning at market. I haven’t had any problems with it drying out and just usually purchase 3 50 lb. bags at a time, because that is all I can lift in one day.  Sometimes they need to order it for me special.  Flour is a mystery just like yeast and pizza.

Thanks for recommending what weighs of sauce and cheese to use, when I make the pizzas.  I will weigh the par-bake skins with sauce cheese and then also after the bake.

Norma