MBE (Mini Black Egg) Project

[buceriasdon]

Jackie Tran, I am just about to embark on my over under two burner oven so I won't have the time to match your efforts with the vortex generators. However I will return to my LBE,MBE whatever later. In the mean time these are my thoughts on how to slow down and "dirty" up the hot air in the upper chamber. Find some thin stainless steel sheet and cut some .75" strips and bend into some L shapes. Aluminum would also work. Perhaps some ready made al. angle. Drill a hole in the L and the lid disc and pop rivet them in on in a staggered fashion creating a "maze" that slows down the rush of air going out the front vent. I of course don't know what tools you have at your disposal,but this will be my next experiment.
Until then, Don

[Essen1]

Chau,

For better air flow, heat retention and top heat coming from the inside of the lid, you could install a cheap quarry tile in the lid by carefully drilling a whole in the center and attaching it to your already installed plate with the bolt. Then fill the space between tile and metal with a small sheet of ceramic fiber blanket and a double layer of alu foil with the shiny side down.

It'll compress the hot air even more and you'll get an amazing ceiling heat for an even bake, with less fuel consumption.

Just a thought...

[Jackie Tran]

Mike I don't have ceramic fiber blanket but will see if I can get some from the big box stores. I do have QT and ceramic drill bits.  My lid is rather shallow so I may have to chop the corners off the QT.  Right now there seems to be sufficient heat in the dome to char the cheese in 2 min. I just need to direct a bit more of the airflow to the inside of the crust/rim.  I may need to move that air deflector closer to the lids edge.

Thanks for the tips. At one point I did have a round slate stone in the lid  but didn't notice any difference over the aluminum disk so I went with metal to save sone weight.  I'll try the QT though.

[Essen1]

Mike I don't have ceramic fiber blanket but will see if I can get some from the big box stores. I do have QT and ceramic drill bits.  My lid is rather shallow so I may have to chop the corners off the QT.  Right now there seems to be sufficient heat in the dome to char the cheese in 2 min. I just need to direct a bit more of the airflow to the inside of the crust/rim.  I may need to move that air deflector closer to the lids edge.

Thanks for the tips. At one point I did have a round slate stone in the lid  but didn't notice any difference over the aluminum disk so I went with metal to save sone weight.  I'll try the QT though.

Chau,

I wouldn't buy things that need a professional grade, given the temps we're working with here, from a big box store. I checked Home Depot for that particular item when I built my LBE and they had nothing that was satisfactory to me. Maybe in your area they do, I don't know.

Member Red.November (RN for short...no, he's not a nurse  , I asked) directed me to this site; He deserves the credit:

http://www.axner.com/superwoolfiber-1thicksoldpersqft.aspx

They sell them at 1" and 2" think.

Axner sells insulation by the foot and cut it precisely to your specs. They even called me and asked how I needed it cut. At no additional cost, if I remember correctly.

It's a great company with lots and lots of supplies which could turn even the biggest BBQ into a great, custom-made pizza oven with a bit of imagination, a nod to adventure and a drive to produce a great pie. But I digress.

In order to increase air flow, and therefor be able to direct it in a better way, I'd try a heat up without the sand buffer bucket you have on the bottom, if you still use it. Dial the flame in on a medium-low (listen to the sound and characteristics of the flame...make sure there's still some yellow in there) and see how your MBE behaves.

If it's too much to handle for the MBE, put the sand buffer bucket back in but I honestly think you don't need it if you use a good temp control from the outside.

It should work, did on mine but then again,...yours is a tad smaller and might need different mods.

[DenaliPete]

I can second Mike's recommendation of Axner, that is also where I bought my insulation (per his suggestion).  I did not think to ask them to cut mine for me and I did it by hand at home, but it worked very well all the same.

I still have far more leftover, if we were near I'd happily give you some to pursue your perfect pie (and you look to be very very close). 

I will probably end up using the remaining insulation in a 22 incher that I picked up at the transfer site and in my own MBE pursuit, (though my mbe will be far different from yours or villas, if indeed it works).

If you do experiment without the buffer bowl I'll be interested to hear the results.

[Jet_deck]

Since you have the air diverter idea implemented with positive results, I'd like to suggest an additional idea. Instead of preheating to 700*, preheat to 600* then load the pizza.  As soon as you get the lid put back on, turn the burner up.  I think the additional airflow from the roaring burner is what you need.  As it is, the burner kind of limping along doesn't produce alot of airflow but the roaring burner will.

Can you spill the beans on your current recipe, or has it already been locked in the vault for the opening of 'Kung Foo Pizza'?

[Jackie Tran]

Don - looking forward to your new experimental oven.   My next move for the MBE, will be to move the air diverter closer towards the rim of the lid.  I'll have to position in such a way that airflow coming up will be diverted right away towards the rim.  A few trials should work just fine.   I'll implement your maze idea down the road if this one doesn't work (well).  I will be using an aluminum "L" strip as you suggested and rivet or bolt it to the lid.  It will simply be a curve shaped lip in the lid along the back perimeter.

Mike - the sand bowl is simply a heat buffer and airflow diverter of sorts to keep the heat from the shooting straight up towards the stone and pushing it more  towards the back.  I have done experiments with and without it back in the earlier days of this MBE and it proved useful.  Even with it in place I still have more heat to the stone than I desire.  If I could get a lower heat conducting stone that is in one piece I would use that.    Once i get this lid air diverter figured out (which shouldn't be long) I'll do a test to show a bake with and without the sand bowl in place to re-confirm my earlier findings.  If it proves not to be effective at that time, I'll pitch it for sure. 

I think in your LBE, you don't require a heat buffer like a sand bowl b/c your metal disk is quite thick.  That in itself will buffer much of the heat from below.  In mine, I have 2 thin (22g) pieces of sheet metal under the stone.  They aren't quite thick enough to buffer the excess heat from below thus necessitating a heat buffer (like the sand bowl).  I also remember you used an aluminum ring to create an air gap b/t the disk and stone.  I have also copied that idea using a few nickels to expand that air gap.  That as well as your disk mod, is another great idea. 

I plan to do work with the lid air diverter a bit more.  If that doesn't prove fruitful, then I will implement the QT and insulation to the top.  Again, my only current issue is getting an even browning of the entire rim.  The cheese is spotting so the heat above the pie itself is sufficient.  Much more and the cheese may actually dry out.   I'll keep you guys posted on what I find out with this lid air diverter.

Thank you for the link from RN, I will definitely return to it when I'm ready to order some insulation.  I wonder if that type of insulation is useful in building WFOs. 

Jet-deck.  Good idea about loading at a lower temp and cranking the burner.  I have been doing that for some time now.  Just to clariy, these pies are only loaded at 650-700 b/c they are a low protein dough (50/50 AP and pastry flour).  I normally load these in the home oven at 850F.  In the MBE, they are loaded at 650-700F b/c of the high heat conducting stone I'm using.  Again, this demonstrates the imbalance of heat in these modified kettle grills.  This also shows the need for buffering bottom heat and diverting it to the top side. 

If I was baking with BF or HG flour, I would definitely load the pie at 550-600 max with my current more efficient set up.  With my old setup (less efficient design) and using low heat conducting stones (FB/QT) I could and did get away with loading BF/HG flour pies at 700 for 3 min without burning.  Not so with this current setup which more closely replicates Mike's disk mod for his LBE. 

So even though I hadn't posted about it lately, I have been loading at lower temps and then cranking the burner up to full throttle.  This idea was introduced by Scott123.  I spoke about it in reply #67

"Load the pie at a hearth of 500F, then crank the fire up to get the surrounding air super hot.  This technique may be the key.  Thanks Scott."

Thanks for the input & suggestions all.  I REALLY DO appreciate it a lot.  I'll consider anything posted and try to implement changes that make sense one at a time to see what happens.   I'll keep you guys posted.

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Can you spill the beans on your current recipe, or has it already been locked in the vault for the opening of 'Kung Foo Pizza'?

Sure JD.  No secret at all.  I really constantly change things up base on the style of pizza, time estimate to bake, etc.   For these, I've been using more of a NP style recipe, meaning lower protein flours.  I would use this recipe to do almost-wfo-politans in the home oven at 850F or in the MBE at a hearth temp of 700f.   You can likely use this recipe for a lower temp bake but you may need to tweak it a bit.   These latest pies were meant for the home oven but I threw them on the mbe at the last minute to test out the airflow diverter.

Flour 100% (50/50 blend AP/Pastry Flour)
Water 64%
Salt 2.5%
Cake Yeast 1.2%

This was the first time I tried cake yeast and I liked the results.  Based on my estimation, the dough would be ready in about about 5-6 hours.  It was ready in 4.5hrs.  You can try this recipe even if you don't have the cake yeast.  Just substitute with IDY 0.4%.  You'll still need to watch the dough. 

I keep it pretty simple.  I usually bulk rise until the dough is about double (2-3 hours).  Then divide, ball, and proof at room temps for a few more hours or until the balls look like they have at least doubled. 

Just vary the yeast amount to the desired amount of fermentation time you want.  If you want a 12 hour fermentation time, then try decreasing the IDY to 0.2%.  Of course your physical environment will determine the amount of yeast you use and the time it takes for the dough  to be ready.  Just keep a log book and adjust accordingly. 

Good luck,
Chau

oh btw - no kung fu pizzeria for me.  I would consider it after retirement  someday if I ever learn how to make great pizza. 

[Essen1]

Mike - the sand bowl is simply a heat buffer and airflow diverter of sorts to keep the heat from the shooting straight up towards the stone and pushing it more  towards the back.  I have done experiments with and without it back in the earlier days of this MBE and it proved useful.  Even with it in place I still have more heat to the stone than I desire.  If I could get a lower heat conducting stone that is in one piece I would use that.    Once i get this lid air diverter figured out (which shouldn't be long) I'll do a test to show a bake with and without the sand bowl in place to re-confirm my earlier findings.  If it proves not to be effective at that time, I'll pitch it for sure.

Chau,

I keep forgetting that your burner sits a lot closer to the stone than in mine. 

[Jackie Tran]

Good point Mike.  I too forget how close my stone is to the burner.   I originally did this to keep the MBE as efficient as possible so I wouldn't be heating up dead space.  Turns out the 170,000 btu burner is a bit of an overkill for the MBE.  But I always say it's better to have and not need than need and not have.

So based on some promising results of the first air dam mod as seen in reply #279. I implemented a larger air dam closer to the edge of the lid.   The idea is to redirect that hot air coming up from the back and pushing it straight down onto the rim.  The toughest part of this was to try and visualize the air current to determine the precise placement the air dam.  I knew I would be drilling into the lid to secure it and really only wanted to have to drill the holes 1 time.  So getting it right the first time is always a challenge.

So here is the the latest mod to the MBE.  The air dam.   It is made from some 22g sheet metal I had sitting around.  I cut it an "L" shape and bolted it onto the lid.  Mod took about an hour to make.  This sits towards the back of the MBE. As you can also see, I kept the original air dam and just turned it 180 degrees.  Pies to follow...

[Jackie Tran]

Wanting to test this new mod out, but knowing i wouldn't be getting off of work in time to mix up some dough, I briefly recalled that I had 2 doughballs in the freezer from my experiment with a Kitchen aid mixer.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11769.0.html
I made 5 or 6 doughballs that day and had placed 2 of them in the freezer.  These were in the freezer for 20 days.  Thawed on the counter at room temps of 75F for 5 hours and then outside where it's a bit warmer for a couple of hours. 

These were 71% HR with a HG flour.  After thawing they were both rather wet and sticky and fairly slack.  I ended up stretching and folding one of the 2 several times half way through the 7 hour proof as part of a side experiment.

Keeping in mind that these were HG doughballs, my MBE is now more efficient based on the new mods, and baking on a higher heat conducting stone, I decided to load these pies at 500F.  My goal was to extend the bake time to 4-5min to allow the HG dough to thoroughly bake through.

First pie was loaded at 500F hearth, burner turned down to half of what I normally use, and baked for 3.5m.  Didn't make the 4-5 min as the new air dam mod worked very well.  Also this first pie is the doughball that didn't have the stretch and folds.

This pie was very NY-elite like.  Crispy/crunchy on the rim and slightly crunchy on the bottom.  Crumb was soft at first but a bit dry after sitting for awhile.  I was very please with the look and the efficiency of the new air dam mod.

[Jackie Tran]

2nd pie is the dough ball that had the stretch and folds.  I do this to trap air bubbles into the dough.  This is done after the bulk rise and prior to the proof.   Once the dough proofs, I can push the air bubbles towards the rim when making the disk and forming a skin.  B/c stretching/folding strengthens the dough, I try to avoid doing too many of them as it can make the dough tough to open.  This dough was really slack so I put in about 5-6 folds.  In hindsight 3-4 would have been plenty.

This dough didn't open as easily as the first one but easy enough.  The overall pie is smaller and the rim a bit thicker.  I also loaded this one at 500F and bake it for 2m45s as oppose to 3.5m (1st pie).  I rotated this pie more often and kept the rim from overly browning.   As a result the rim was not crisp at all and the bottom soften up after sitting, unlike the 1st pie.  The crumb texture was much better than the first.  Surprisingly tender and moist for a HG flour dough baked at under 3 min.   Both the wife and I like the taste of this pie much better.

Surprislngly 2 very different pies made from the same dough, just baked slightly different.  This one (to me) was my closest effort at reproducing a Nearlypolitan pie in the MBE.  I believe with these new mods, caputo and a bit higher baking temp, that the NP pies are within reach in my MBE.  More tests to follow...

I have really made some great improvements to my MBE thanks in part to ideas borrowed from Mike's (Essen1) disk mod, Jet_deck's 70's beaded curtain ideas, Don's (Buceriasdon) vortex generator idea, and my own ingenuity  .  Thanks a bunch guys.  I'm done modding the MBE for now.  More bake tests to follow...

[Jet_deck]

JT, while you were posting, I was cooking your recipe.  I used the White Wings flour tortilla mix (7% Protein) in place of the pastry flour. I thought it would be interesting for you to see your recipe cooked at sea level and 90% humidity environment, quite the opposite of your surroundings.

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks for doing that JD.  What type of yeast and % did you end up using and how long was your fermentation time? 

Also did you like it better or worse than the other recipe you used with good results?  I can see that you had to cook it a bit longer to get the desired color in the rim which likely lead to toasting the cheese (unless you like that).  Yeah that recipe I posted earlier is for a hi temp/quick bake.  Is that what you did?  BTW, your pies are fast improving since you posted your first pie a short while back.  Keep up the experimenting JD.  I'm anxious to see your Chimea in action.   

BTW, I just ordered a 55lb bag of caputo, so my work with pastry flour may be very limited shortly. 

[Jet_deck]

I intended to use the IDY 0.4% that you suggested.  I just realized (duh) that i used ADY 0.4% instead. No wonder it didn't rise much, o well got 2 balls in the fridge for tonight.  Fermented at room temp in bulk 3 hours ( I did the slap fold at hour 1) balled and sat for about 1 hour.  The toasted cheese was likely due to it being a store brand cheap stuff.  650* on the  10stone, but I didn't time it probably 3 minutes, tops.  I think that I do like it better than the BF/AP mix.  The neighbor that provided the meat (pork sausage and brisket link sausage) was practically at my door asking for another pizza, after I gave him the first one.  Thanks for the compliment on improving, I think I have too.  The cat will be away this weekend, so me being the mice, will play with the chiminea a bit.

[Jackie Tran]

Awesome JD.  Here's the honest truth as I see it about pizza.  Even though I'm picky about how my pizzas look, it really doesn't matter what pizzas look like or what we use or how we achieve the end result.  To me, pizza is an experience  we have.  The success we have when we are pizza masters in no way negates the experiences we have with "crap" pizza when we were kids.  If it provokes an positive memorable experience then that's the whole point.

It's awesome that your neighbor came back asking for more pizza.  Only we may nit pick about the minutia, but the neighbor is probably thinking "that's the best d@mn pizza I ever ate!"  Good job, keep it up.   

I REALLY appreciate that story about your neighbor coming back for more.  Someday if he is interested, you should teach him how to make his own pies.    Boy I sure do wish I had a neighbor that would trade pork and beef sausage for pizza.   

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Okay, so with the new air dam working well, I decide to do a test run with Caputo at higher temps. 
This was an experimental dough made with my new Bosch mixer.

Caputo 100%
Water  63%
Cake Yeast 0.2%
Salt 2.5 %

I had originally planned these for a 12 hour room temp ferment but they only lasted about 7 hours till baked.  I should have even baked them an hour earlier.  It was to be my first high temp bake since the new mods. 

I loaded the first pie a around 600 I think and had the burner on 75% of full throttle.  The bottom didn't char and the top took longer to brown.  I think this one took about 2.5 minute to bake.

2nd pie I decided to load at a hearth temp of around 700 with the burner going full blast.  This pie baked in 1m50s or so and the bottem had a nice char to it.  Next time I may even load the pie at 650F hearth with the burner wide open. 

The crumb was soft but also toughen a bit after it cooled dough.  I can't be sure if it was the new mixer, the relatively lower HR for my environment, or under baking of the crust.  I'll have to do some more experimenting.  But so far this test bake was promising.  I'm moving in the right direction towards making a NP pie in the MBE.

 

[Mick.Chicago]

The second pie down looks just as good as than the one I had at SpaccaNapoli last night.  The only difference is slightly more char and you're there.

Serious. 

Are you still trying to get towards your perfect pie?  I mean, what are you aiming for? 

[Jackie Tran]

The second pie down looks just as good as than the one I had at SpaccaNapoli last night.  The only difference is slightly more char and you're there.

Serious. 

Are you still trying to get towards your perfect pie?  I mean, what are you aiming for? 

MC, that is too kind of you.  I think like most active members here, I know good/great pizza when I eat it and have become rather picky about what is good and what is not.   At the moment I am really just having fun exploring how to make the different styles.  I would like to learn as much as I can about pizza making in general while I still have the motivation, time, and income to do so.   

I want to know and develop a decent understanding of what is possible and what is not possible.  I want to do the impossible.  I want to know that I can transform the most basic of ingredients into something that I and the ppl I serve pizza to say "wow, that's good stuff!"  The more time I spend on the forum and making pizza, the wiser I am becoming slowly.  I am beginning to change my mind about a lot of things lately.   

I use to think there was perfection, but am now satisfied with just greatness.  I think our taste can change a lot as we grow too.  I mean I think I know what a perfect Neo-Neapolitan should taste like, but then again that's just my personal taste.  You may disagree with me on what perfect is.  Also I ate a really satisfying chicago deep dish last week.  There's no way to compare the 2 except to say that they are both really enjoyable.  To say one is perfect would discredit the other.  I think we can learn to make "perfect" or really great NY, deep dish, NP pies but not one style is more perfect than the other for me.

I use to to get a bit irked by the elitists that say if you want to make a real NP pie you have to use caputo and it has to be baked in a WFO.  My goal was to see if I couldn't prove them wrong.  What if I could make a perfect pie using AP flour in a home setting?  If not I would at the very least learn the limitations of AP flour and the home oven.

But today, I got to eat some amazing pizza from a WFO.  I even got to try my own dough (caputo vs a blend of AP/pastry), and you wanna know the TRUTH??

The WFO oven, the bosch mixer, and the caputo flour made a HUGE difference!  When I had little hope for my dough (from my past experience with hand kneading, blending flours, and baking pies using the MBE/home oven/primo) I was blown away at my own pizza when these components came together.  It elevated my pizza from a 6 or 7 out of 10 to a 8-9/10.  With the right tools, I believe I can do even better than I have been.  All I have been doing lately is really just getting my feet wet. 

My experience today left a big impression on me...

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Made some really good NY-elite pies tonight.  Made them with HG bromated flour.   The cake yeast is 2 weeks old and maybe a bit weak.  Didn't quite get the dough to proof up the way I wanted for a 12 hour room temp rise, but they still had  good oven spring.

I figured out a great trick to increase the oven spring in the MBE.  Should work for the LBE as well.  During the first few minutes of baking, I take my metal peel and hold it against the top lid vent.  Blocking the airflow and keeping the heat in the dome.  This produced an appreciable difference in the oven spring.

Made 4 good pies tonight but the last one was the BEST!  One of my all time favorites.   Crunchy/crispy outside and bottom and open airy moist crumb.  It was fantastic.

Here are the first 3 pies.  Last one will get it's own post.