Author Topic: A few new gadgets!  (Read 1643 times)

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brayshaw

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A few new gadgets!
« on: June 05, 2010, 01:36:57 AM »
So yesterday I got through the post an infrared thermometer gun that goes up to 500 degrees C, a digital thermometer probe (so I can test dough temp) and a dough cutter/scraper. I am making dough today for pizza tomorrow so I will post some pictures of my new toys and dough.
Can I ask for advice on what is the ideal dough temp to shoot for? I will be using cold water. Also can I stop mid-mix and put the dough back in the fridge if the temp gets too high?
I can see this pizza thing is going to cost me many more $$$! Haha.
Once again, many thanks in advance.
Paul
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 02:51:24 AM by brayshaw »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2010, 02:06:22 AM »
Paul, I just spent close to $200 to build a mini black egg.  :-D

I made some awesome pies today and didn't measure the dough temp.  I did use cold water though.  From what I've read, many posters say to not exceed 80F.   I have put the dough in the fridge before to cool it some during kneading, but I can tell you this, it isn't necessary.  If you are kneading the dough pass 80F, you are likely overkneading it. 

Tran

Online scott123

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2010, 09:31:43 AM »
Paul, there really is no 'ideal' temp for dough. The 'ideal' temp is whatever temperature ferments the dough properly within the time frame you're attempting to ferment it for your particular environment.

These factors can all affect fermentation:

Water temp
Flour temp (ambient temp, unless you refrigerate it)
Flour protein content/particle size/damaged starch content/enzyme content/water content (every flour will ferment a little differently)
Hydration
Insulating properties of the container
Refrigerator temp
Kneading time
Kneading equipment (hand vs. mixer)
Time (in or out of fridge)
The style of pizza being made

Sticking to the same brand of flour helps, but bear in mind, even the same brand will vary from bag to bag, so don't assume the new bag will bake up exactly like the old one.

Hydration is not a huge factor, imo, but it's still best to stick within a +/- 3% range

The fridge temp is what it is.  Sure, you can invest in a fridge thermometer and test it, but for most people, it's fairly constant.

Mixers, as you know, generate heat. They also tend to knead more aggressively than hand kneading.  Cold fermentation develops a lot of gluten in itself, so if you cold ferment your dough, I recommend scaling back on the kneading dramatically. If it's smooth before going into the fridge, you're kneading it too much. It should look like cottage cheese. In order to remove the gluten development variable as much as possible from the equation, I try to always knead the dough with the same intensity for the same amount of time. I also mix the dough/make the balls in approximately the same time frame (delays will allow the dough to hydrate and thus mess with the gluten content).

I use bottled water or tap that's been boiled and then cooled (my tap is basically pool water, it's so chlorinated), which I store at ambient temp.  Cooling water or warming it is a hassle, so I use it right out of the bottle. I do make a note of the ambient temp, though, for reference.  I also knead by hand so the dough temp is pretty much ambient temp. As ambient temp goes up, I adjust my yeast content downwards (and vice versa).

It's a little bass ackwards, but you really have to learn to recognize properly fermented dough before you can trace your steps to see how exactly you achieved it. It's important to document everything and mitigate as many variables as possible, but, until you know exactly what to recognize, it's impossible to avoid at least some trial and error.

And, as far as not exceeding 80 deg dough... I'm not sure it's really that cut and dry.  In theory, one could have a minimal yeast, same day emergency dough that's started at a higher temp to encourage enzymatic activity (while still not ballooning up too much). One important thing to remember is that water takes a lot of energy to heat/cool and that fermentation creates heat on it's own.  The warmer the dough, the more yeast activity, the more fermentation heat that's going be generated, which, in turn, will affect the time it takes to chill in the fridge. Refrigerators take a long time to chill foods, especially foods that are generating heat as they chill.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 09:42:41 AM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2010, 09:50:25 AM »
Paul,

I see that scott123 posted as I was composing my reply. Rather than reconstuct it, I am posting it as I composed it even if there is some overlap with scott123's reply.

The recommended finished dough temperature for doughs to be cold fermented is 80-85 degrees F (26.7-29.4 degrees C) in a commercial environment using a cooler and 75-80 degrees F (23.9-26.7 degrees C) in a home environment using a standard refrigerator. The difference is mainly because a home refrigerator runs several degrees warmer than a commercial cooler and is not as efficient.

However, just because the finished dough temperature exceeds 80 degrees F (26.7 degrees C) does not necessarily mean that you overkneaded the dough. As you will see from Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7180.msg61973/topicseen.html#msg61973, there are many factors that influence finished dough temperature. Also, as noted in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6699.msg57459/topicseen.html#msg57459, using autolyse or other rest periods makes it a real challenge to achieve a particular finished dough temperature, especially in the summer. This time of year, in my kitchen here in Texas, even without using autolyse or similar rest periods, I generally have to use water right out of the refrigerator and work fast and without interruptions to have a decent chance of achieving a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F (23.9-26.7 degrees C). Using hand kneading is also a challenge this time of year because it generally takes longer to knead a given amount of dough to a particular condition using hand kneading rather than a machine. You will be surprised how fast a dough worked at room temperature approaches room temperature.

I personally would not remove the dough from the mixer before it is done kneading to put it in the refrigerator. I would knead the dough to the desired condition and if the finished dough temperature is too high you can always put the dough in the freezer compartment for about 10-15 minutes and then move it into the refrigerator compartment. By "too high" I do not mean a degree or two. If you are shooting for a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F (26.7 degrees) and you end up with 85 degrees F (29.4 degrees C), that won't be the end of the world. But if that bothers you, you can put the dough in the freezer compartment for a brief period, and then into the refrigerator compartment.

I don't recall where you are in the UK but if you were in London where the outdoor temperature is projected to reach 78 degrees F (25.6 degrees C) today, and if you are using a standard KitchenAid stand mixer and no autolyse or similar rest periods, you might use a water temperature of around 70 degrees F (21 degrees C) to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F (23.9 degrees C). Over time, you should get a pretty good feel for the water temperature to use over the course of a year as ambient temperatures change with the seasons.

Peter

brayshaw

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2010, 12:48:33 PM »
Some brilliant advice there guys!  And once again your knowledge and advice is top draw! Thank you.

Peter, I live in a place called Peacehaven with is right on the south coast of England and it's pretty hot today, I am going to be making the dough shortly....I have been using a 20minute autolyse which includes 75% flour and 100% water (no salt or idy until after the autolyse) is it recommended to do a cold autolyse?

Thanks,
Paul

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 01:44:51 PM »
I have been using a 20minute autolyse which includes 75% flour and 100% water (no salt or idy until after the autolyse) is it recommended to do a cold autolyse?

Paul,

Having experimented with making doughs that are to be frozen, and in which I tried to keep the dough as cold as possible before freezing it, I learned that it is harder to hydrate a flour if the water is too cold. If your hydration percent is high enough, I think you should be able to use water right out of the refrigerator to conduct the autolyse. I think you will find that from the point where you take the water out of the refrigerator to where you start adding the flour, there will be a water temperature jump of several degrees.

In your case, I would tend to use water right out of the refrigerator and make your dough the usual way and, if the finished dough temperature is too high, cool the dough in the freezer for a few minutes. You may find that you get the desired finished dough temperature without having to put the dough in the freezer. You can also use your usual methods to make the dough and then go to the freezer if that is needed. It's up to you which way to go. Yesterday, I made a dough (a basic Lehmann dough) at a room temperature of about 82 degrees F/about 28 degrees C, a flour temperature of about 78 degrees F/25.6 degrees C, and a water temperature of about 59 degrees F/15 degrees C (the water was about 50 degrees F/10 degrees C when I took it out of the refrigerator. I used a basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the flat paddle beater and then the C-hook, but no autolyse. The finished dough temperature after a total knead time of about 4 minutes at stir/2 speeds (for a roughly 13.5-ounce dough ball) was almost 80 degrees F/26.7 degrees C. I worked fast to make the dough and to then get it into the refrigerator as quickly as I could.

Now that you have all the necessary tools, please let us know what numbers you get, especially the water temperature and the finished dough temperature.

Peter


brayshaw

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2010, 03:03:34 PM »
Peter, I put my water in the freezer for a while and accidentally forgot about it.... I went to make the dough and the water was 49 degrees F, I then added 75% of the flour and mixed for 2mins and the temp was 59 degrees, I gave the dough a 30min autolyse in the fridge and it came out at 54degrees.
I added all the idy and mixed for 1min and then did the same with the salt, It then took me about 12minutes to add the last 25% of flour slowly, the last 25% always seems to take me ages to add.....
The finished temp was 69degrees F.
I will get the pics on here tomorrow.

Paul

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2010, 03:40:39 PM »
Paul,

I am an advocate of the straight dough method where I try to get from point A to point B as fast as I can so I rarely go the lengths you went to make your recent dough. But it is interesting how with everything you did to try to keep the dough temperature down you still ended up with a finished dough temperature of 69 degrees F. I think it was the last 12 minutes that allowed the dough to warm up to that temperature--from 54 degrees F to 69 degrees F. It will be interesting to read your report on the matter.

Peter

brayshaw

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2010, 05:13:33 PM »
Peter,

From what you know about my mixing protocol, 'if' you had to guess why I or others struggle adding the last 25% of flour what would you say it was? I have always used cold water and have always struggled with it...
But then I watch Norma's amazing videos and she seems to add all the flour and water and it turns out great and mixing in only a few minutes.

Paul

Online norma427

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2010, 05:47:28 PM »
Peter,

From what you know about my mixing protocol, 'if' you had to guess why I or others struggle adding the last 25% of flour what would you say it was? I have always used cold water and have always struggled with it...
But then I watch Norma's amazing videos and she seems to add all the flour and water and it turns out great and mixing in only a few minutes.

Paul

Paul,

I don't have a mixer at home, only a food processor and I usually mix by hand.  I also have problems sometimes with getting the flour to incorporate.  I found out by Peter's idea, that by sifting the flour first, the water and flour incorporate better.

My mixer at market is a workhorse.  It is a lot different than a home mixer. 

Best of luck to you,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2010, 06:02:55 PM »
Paul,

Although I don't recall what dough formulation you are using, and particularly the hydration percent, my recollection is that you are using a standard KitchenAid mixer, although I don't recall whether it has a spiral hook or a C-hook. My KitchenAid mixer has a C-hook, which is not particularly effective. It does better for a more highly hydrated dough and for a relatively small dough batch weight, but beyond that its effectiveness goes downhill pretty fast. It was because of difficulties hydrating flour that I went to sifting the flour. I also used the whisk, flat beater and C-hook attachments to improve the dough making process. Although I was able to make a dough ready for the refrigerator in about 10-12 minutes using those agitators, it can be fairly messy. I have also concluded that most people prefer the KISS method for most things that apply to pizza dough.

Peter

Online scott123

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2010, 06:03:37 PM »
With my bread background I started very non KISS when working with pizza dough, and, over time, put the complicated stuff behind me.

Although it takes hours for flour to fully absorb water, the initial absorption that occurs when flour and water are first mixed is both fairly quick and fairly dramatic. It depends a lot on the type of flour (and other elements), but generally speaking, you get about a minute or two of mixing before the flour really sucks up most of the water.  If you walk away, it will continue to hydrate, and if left for long enough, it will take up very little additional flour. I don't get into to many pizzeria kitchens, but I can pretty much guarantee you that 99.99% of them, when working with just IDY, are doing straight dough methods.

Unless you're in a bind and have to have an emergency dough, pizza dough is about a thousand times superior when cold fermented.  Cold fermentation develops plenty of gluten. With that in mind, additional gluten manipulation (autolyses, re-balls, punch downs, folds, etc.) end up being counterproductive.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 06:05:17 PM by scott123 »

brayshaw

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2010, 06:17:52 PM »
Thank you guys and girls,

Has any one tried a very very long autolyse? I'm talking hours and hours..

I will of course keep you posted how my pizzas turn out tomorrow.
Paul


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2010, 06:32:31 PM »
Has any one tried a very very long autolyse? I'm talking hours and hours..


Paul,

I have read about people using autolyse lasting several hours and in one case including an overnight period. Apparently some people have concluded that if a little autolyse is good, then a lot of it must be much better. However, if you read the book The Taste of Bread, by Professor Raymond Calvel, who was the originator of autolyse, you will find that the autolyse periods are quite short, even for commercial dough batch sizes. See, for example, what I reported on autolyse durations from Professor Calvel's book at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624.html#msg74624. As to other examples of autolyse durations, see Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4256.msg35492/topicseen.html#msg35492.

Peter

brayshaw

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2010, 04:40:03 AM »
What is 'KISS' and 'straight dough methods' ? Also can someone fill me in on what a riposo is?
Many thanks,
Paul
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 05:21:54 AM by brayshaw »

Offline flacktygb

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2010, 06:40:24 AM »
Paul,

I have read about people using autolyse lasting several hours and in one case including an overnight period. Apparently some people have concluded that if a little autolyse is good, then a lot of it must be much better. However, if you read the book The Taste of Bread, by Professor Raymond Calvel, who was the originator of autolyse, you will find that the autolyse periods are quite short, even for commercial dough batch sizes.


'Some people' includes, of course, Philippe Gosselin and subsequent adaptation by Peter Reinhart (Although Peter Reinhart's adapted method isn't technically an autolyse - Gosselin's original method could certainly be considered one).
Your assertion that their use of a 'long autolyse' was based on a 'more is better' reasoning is incorrect. Rather it was borne of a desire to use a long, slow rest period to harness enzymatic processes in creating a better tasting bread (specifically in white-flour baguettes - 'pain a l'ancienne' being the popularised example).
Calvel's autolyse was primarily concerned with dough development which is an altogether different aspect and should not be confused with the longer rest periods employed by Gosselin (and others).



Online scott123

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2010, 08:34:57 AM »
What is 'KISS' and 'straight dough methods' ? Also can someone fill me in on what a riposo is?
Many thanks,
Paul

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid :D

Straight Dough- everything into the mixer at the same time.

Riposo - Italian for 'rest.'


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2010, 09:09:29 AM »
What is 'KISS' and 'straight dough methods' ? Also can someone fill me in on what a riposo is?


Paul,

As scott123 has noted, KISS is an American slang expression that stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. As I am sure you have noticed, there are quite a few passionate and sometimes obsessed pizza makers on this forum who go to great lengths to try to perfect their pizzas, but there is a large body of people out there who just want to make a basic, decent pizza in a reasonable period of time in the simplest and most direct method possible, using common ingredients that they can easily purchase and using standard home mixers (or hand kneading) and standard home ovens. For them, the "straight dough" method is likely to be their preferred method for making the dough. That method, as described by Professor Calvel, entails placing all of the ingredients into the mixer either prior to or during the mixing stage and in which each batch of dough is made independently of others. I often use that term to mean a dough that is made without autolyse or similar rest periods and without punchdowns, stretch and folds, etc. However, starters/preferments can also be used, apparently as Professor Calvel also permitted as part of the straight dough method.

Riposo is a term that is sometimes used synonymously with autolyse but I believe that is technically incorrect. As I understand it, the term riposo means a rest period that comes at the end of mixing of the dough, as pizzanapoletana (Marco) describes it in relation to a Neopolitan dough at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg15195.html#msg15195.

Peter

« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 09:27:57 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2010, 09:21:15 AM »
Your assertion that their use of a 'long autolyse' was based on a 'more is better' reasoning is incorrect. Rather it was borne of a desire to use a long, slow rest period to harness enzymatic processes in creating a better tasting bread (specifically in white-flour baguettes - 'pain a l'ancienne' being the popularised example).
Calvel's autolyse was primarily concerned with dough development which is an altogether different aspect and should not be confused with the longer rest periods employed by Gosselin (and others).


Thank you for the clarification. I was actually being a bit flippant inasmuch as the question of the duration of autolyse comes up quite often and some people seem to have this strong urge to extend the autolyse rest periods even when there is little evidence of significant added benefit. I am aware of the type of long rest period that you referenced, having read the application of such a long rest period by one of our members in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7770.msg66722.html#msg66722. The member in that case used a 12-hour rest period (overnight), which he referred to as an "autolyse". However, I believe he was actually thinking of the enzymatic aspects of the dough, not dough development.

Peter

Offline flacktygb

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Re: A few new gadgets!
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2010, 09:33:32 AM »
No worries and you are probably right: there may indeed be other folks who extend the autolyse based on different reasoning. Thanks for pointing out the 'overnight autolyse' thread - great discussion of it there.




 

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