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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2010, 10:58:05 AM »
Norma I personally like the look of your latest pies.  It's in line with my favored or ideal type of crust/crumb.  It's not for everyone though.  So what I would consider "perfect" others who eat it may just say "meh, not my cup of tea".   All I know is that it's a very specific type of crust and crumb and it has a very specific look to it.  The crumb is not spongy like neopolitan pies.  And when i get it right, it's pizza heaven.  It's way better than my other mediocre pies using the SAME formulation.  But zeroing in on the right hydration ratio for the right moistness, right oven spring, and right crumb texture balanced with the right baking temp and you have it.  You can do it using the very formula you've been using for a year now.  Get those essential elements to line up (with the moon and stars of course  :-D) and the crust will take on an amazingly different quality.  It's not easy though so I hope at least one person on this board can do what i have done to validate that I'm not losing my mind.  :P

Your crumb shots look very airy and similar to mine despite using a different recipe which solidfies in my mind, it's not the recipe.  It's the way the dough is handled/made and it's the way it's baked up.  If you like an even loftier/airier crumb like my perfect pies, it's easy to do for you.  You are 80-90% there.  All you have to do is up your hydration ratio a bit.  If you are using a Lehman dough and your hydration ratio is around 63-65%, then just up it towards 69% to see the difference.  Bake it the same way in your grill and stretch it out thinner and you should be eating what I'm eating. 

If your bottom is getting darker before the top, here's a trick I use.  Just monitor the bottom and when it's brown (not charred), slip the pie on a comparable size FLAT (no rim) pizza pan.  It will slow down the bottom cooking drastically and buy you more time for the top to catch up. 

Would you mind doing an experiment for me?  Next time you bake on the grill, up your hydration ratio by 5% (so say 63% to 68%) and stretch it thinner and  see what kinda of pie you get.  And don't worry about the spring of a thin dough.  B/c your bake temp is right, you will still get HUGE spring. 

Overfermentation: Unfortunately I'm no expert and can only share my experience.  The doughs look very poofy.  The only way I know how to gauge overproofed dough is when it rises to more than double and can't seem to support it's own weight.  But that is way overproofed.  I generally shoot for about a 75% increase.  A little more is ok too.   The 2nd indication (albeit less scientific than the first :) ) is that the pie seems to darken or burn prematurely or faster than expected at high temps.  when my dough is properly fermented, it will take a 700F for 4 min and get a dark but not burnt bottom.  I might even say 750F for 3 min is fair.  If it darkens or burns prior to that I consider it at the beginning stages of over-fermentation.  The more overfermented the sooner it will burn.  As an extreme example, I posted (in my MBE thread) a overly fermented dough.  It started to burn at below 650F in around a minute and a half.  I ened up letting that one really burn to try and play around with darkening the rim a bit.  I realize my undertanding and explanation may not represent truely what is going on.  So experts feel free to correct me.   

Again, very nice work. 


Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2010, 12:41:05 PM »
Jackie Tran,

What I would like to achieve someday, is to make a regular pizza that has the appearance of foccacia.  I had tried in the thread Felice Anno Nuovo Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.  I had used a natural starter sometimes when I was trying out that style of pizza.  My daughter and I went to Black Lab Bakery which is owned by a member of this forum, bakerboy.  His foccacia was light and airy.  You can see some of the pictures of bakerboy’s foccacia at Repy #104 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87442.html#msg87442 and see the Siclian higher hydration I tried right after going to Black Lab Bakery at Reply#111 at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88032.html#msg88032 That was a 75% hydration dough.

You recent success reminded me, that your pie looked a lot like foccacia.  :chef:  If you have time someday, just look though the pictures at that thread and see if you think your recent pie does look like a high hydration foccacia or look at other members threads about foccacia.

LOL, JT, getting the elements to line up are hard, in trying anything to do with pizza.  :-D There are so many variables that can go into making pizza.

Thanks for giving me your trick of sliding a flat pizza pan under the pizza before it can get burnt.  I appreciate that.   :)

In the next few weeks, I will take your challenge and use my regular preferment for the Lehmann dough and up the hydration to see what happens. I will make a 16" dough ball and cut it down.  I will also mix it by hand. Should be interesting.  My dough now is very sticky when it comes off the hook and when I ball it, I have to do it quickly, or it wants to stick to my hands. I don’t know if it is the poolish that causes the stickiness or not. I don’t add any extra flour when balling. It might be a challenge to do a higher hydration.  Time will tell.

Thanks for saying the pizza was nice work,  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 12:43:27 PM by norma427 »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2010, 03:14:14 PM »
Thanks for giving me your trick of sliding a flat pizza pan under the pizza before it can get burnt.  I appreciate that. 

Norma,

I know that you are no longer using pizza screens at market, but some pizza operators who do use pizza screens in their deck ovens will use the same method as mentioned by JT. They will bake the pizzas in their deck ovens until the bottom crusts have developed the correct color and then slip pizza screens under the pizzas to stop them from developing too much color or burning. Most pizza operators who use pizza screens tend to start with the pizzas on the screens and then slip them off of the screens onto the stone toward the end of the bake to develop the proper bottom crust coloration. Actually, this method is easier and perhaps preferred because you don't have to worry about misloading pizzas into the oven from peels. It's also far easier to train workers to make and dress the pizzas right on the screens.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2010, 03:56:36 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for your ideas, also.  I never thought about placing a screen or a pan under the pie, after it had already browned enough.  You are correct, that I only used screens before when I was learning to make pizzas.  I now use them only under my Sicilian pizzas, so the bottom won’t get dark too fast.  I will try out JT’s and your idea, the next time I bake in the BBQ grill set-up.  It will be interesting to see what kind of results will be achieved. 

I wanted to ask one other question about using the “00" flour and cake yeast.  In another attempt, I want to try the “00" flour and cake yeast with added KASL, in the BBQ grill set-up. Do you have any idea of how much cake yeast should be used in a room fermented dough for about as long as I did yesterday?  I haven’t used cake yeast before and although the taste of the crust was good, I think I overfermented the dough.  Maybe using “00" flour combined with KASL will give me better results, in baking in the BBQ grill set-up.

Norma
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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2010, 04:15:23 PM »
Norma,

The usual conversion from IDY to cake yeast is to use cake yeast that weighs about three times the weight of the IDY. That might be difficult to do unless you have a scale that can weigh the amount of cake yeast that is equivalent to your IDY. If you have one of those small 0.6-ounce cubes of cake yeast that are sold in some supermarkets, you can use the conversion table given at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm to do the conversion. The dry yeast to cake yeast conversions in the chart are based on fractions of the 0.6-ounce cubes. If you have one of those cubes, I can help you with the conversion if you wish. I would need to know how much IDY you have been using.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2010, 04:40:28 PM »
Peter,

For the formula for the dough using the “00" flour and cake yeast, I used the expanded dough calculating tool and entered the amount as 1.25.%.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg102626.html#msg102626 I never tried this formula before with IDY, so I am not sure how much would be needed for a 10 hour room temperature ferment for cake yeast.  I wanted to try the cake yeast the next time with “00" flour, KASL, natural sea salt and cake yeast.  Maybe a blend of 60% “00" with 40% KASL. Do you have any idea on how much cake yeast would be needed for a 10 hour room temperature ferment?  I do have the 0.6 oz. (17g) cube of cake yeast.  I used an 8" pizza with no bowl residue in the expanded dough calculating tool.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2010, 04:45:55 PM »
Hi Norma, I took a look at those links you posted for the focaccia bread.  I didn't read the threads so I have no idea what context the pics are in.  I am assuming that the first link and set of pictures are focaccia bread that Black Lab sells.

If I had to pick one, my crumb is more like the first set up pictures except it is just slightly less moist and ever so slightly less spongy.  The 2nd link pics looks spongy to me, but it's a focaccia bread not pizza crust.  The differenc b/t my crust and the focaccia bread in the first pics is due to a difference in flour.  I bet they use a lower protein flour compared to my HG flour.  If I used a bread flour or mixed in 50% AP with my HG flour, my crumb texture would resemble that foccacia bread.  I've always tried to get a pizza rim that is like a french bread.  Crusty/crispy on the outside soft, moist, and airy on the inside.  I'm very happy to have achieved that.  I didn't know if it was possible when i first started making pizza until I found my perfect pie #1.  After that i knew it was possible but could not really recreate it.  It has taken much effort and many many hours of experimentation.

I believe what you are trying to create as your perfect pizza is not that different from what I am making now.

I also forgot to talk a bit about your experience with 00 flour.  My first attempts with it were the same.  I found a very slack dough that was unmanageable.  The reason is I was treating it like a BF.  Caputo needs quite a bit more kneading than bread flour and quite a bit lower hydration ratio.  Members are using anywhere b/t 58%-66%.  I'm on the upper end of that spectrum.  Also if you watch all the videos of the pros handling caputo flour you will know the proper consistency for it.  It should have enough gluten developed in it to allow for you to pull a lightly topped pie from the bench to the peel.  When you get the right dough consistency for caputo, you'll be amazed at being able to pull it around without it tearing or getting too mangled.  

Chau
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 04:47:28 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2010, 05:01:20 PM »
Chau,

I am not trying to create a foccacia dough right now.  That experiment might be farther down the line.  At some point in time, that his how I would like a pizza to be.  Nice, light and a puffy rim.  I think for that type of pizza, I will have to start my starters, that I bought a while ago. 

I am not really looking for a perfect pizza, just experimenting to see what can be achieved.  I always want to try a different kind of pizza, to see how the crust tastes.

Thanks for telling me about your experiences with Caputo flour.  I never really played around with that  kind of flour and don’t think my BBQ set-up will get hot enough for an all “00" flour.

I have seen all your efforts and I am amazed that all you go though to find your perfect pizza.  Your endurance is never ending.  ;D

Norma
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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2010, 05:16:28 PM »
Do you have any idea on how much cake yeast would be needed for a 10 hour room temperature ferment?


Norma,

What you want to do is a function of not only an amount of yeast but also the room temperature at which the dough is to ferment, with both of these factors, along with the hydration and water temperature, governing the duration of the fermentation, which is 10 hours in your example, and the extent of the rise, which in your case might be a doubling by the 10-hour mark such that the dough does not overferment. Unfortunately, I am not aware of a simple tool where you can plug in the type of yeast you want to use, the room temperature at which the dough is to ferment, the water temperature used to make the dough, and the desired length of fermentation, and have the tool tell you how much cake yeast (or any other form of yeast) to use. The closest tool that I am aware of that might be able to do this is November's calculations as set forth in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572. But, even then, you would have to have a reference standard, such as a doubling of the dough, along with a reference dough formulation, and you would also have to do some conversions between types of yeast.

For me to come up with a test value of yeast for what you want to do, I would have to revisit what I did in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html and see whether I tried any experiment that might suggest an amount of yeast that might be converted to cake yeast for what you want to do. It might take me a while to come up with a suggested amount of yeast, but I can take a stab at it if you wish. In any event, I would have to know the room temperature at which the dough is to ferment.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 05:24:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2010, 06:04:55 PM »
Peter,

I just looked at the link you provided for fermentation based on room temperature by November and as math challenged as I am, there is no way, I could figure all that out. 

I would just be satisfied with using cooler or cold water than I did yesterday and letting the dough double in size, before baking. The room temperature is about 80 degrees F.  I just wanted to know if there is some way of figuring out how much cake yeast should be used in a room fermented dough.  I can watch the dough all day if need be.

Norma
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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2010, 06:14:48 PM »
Norma,

Is the dough formulation you want to use the one given at Reply 72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg102626.html#msg102626, but using a blend of the two flours and adjusting the amount of cake yeast? I believe that dough formulation is for an 8" pizza. Is that correct?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2010, 06:35:33 PM »
Peter,

Yes, the dough formulation is the one given at Reply #72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg102626.html#msg102626

I do want to use a blend of “00" flour and KASL and keep the natural salt amount the same.  The size is a 8" pizza.  I am just having problems figuring out how much cake yeast to use when doing a room temperature ferment.  I did like the taste of this crust, when baked in the BBQ grill set-up. 

Norma
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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2010, 06:56:31 PM »
Norma,

There are essentially two ways to determine the amount of yeast for what you want to do. The first is to use November's method after establishing a reference case with a particular dough formulation and where the dough expands by a certain desired amount, such as a doubling (but it could be less or more). The second method is to use trial and error--by picking an amount of yeast, note the water temperature, and note the room temperature and how long it takes for the dough to reach the desired degree of expansion at that temperature, which would be a doubling in your case. If the dough doubles sooner than you wanted, then the next time you would use less yeast. If it takes longer than you wanted for the dough to double, then you would increase the amount of yeast. However, if the room temperature the next time is higher or lower, you will also have to adjust the amount of yeast downwardly or upwardly, respectively, to compensate for the change in room temperature. To get around these types of problems, you would need a unit such as the MR-138 and use a relatively constant fermentation temperature. The dough formulation would have to be adjusted to work with that fermentation temperature to give you the desired results when you want them.

I will take a stab at coming up with a dough formulation that you might use for test purposes. However, for a dough ball weight of 142.5 grams and 85.97 grams of flour, I can already tell you that the amount of cake yeast will be minuscule, perhaps so small that you will have difficulty carving it out of a 17-gram cube.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2010, 07:03:30 PM »
Norma, do you have a couple hundred bucks lying around?  :) This will monitor your dough for you:

http://www.co2meter.com/collections/portable/products/desktop-co2-meter

You can even connect it to your computer and have it tell you how much CO2 your dough is producing.  With a little programming, I would think it would be pretty easy to have it send you an email when your dough is ready- or maybe have some sort of GPSish voice give you updates.  It might also be fun to have it warn you of impending overfermentation.  "Danger Will Robinson, Danger, your dough is about to exceed it's fermentation parameters. Danger!"

There's also a cheaper DIY option, but, I have to admit, it looks intimidating.

http://www.futurlec.com/Gas_Sensors.shtml

If it had an Arduino connector ($20 for the sensor and $25ish for the Arduino board), then I'd be temped (by the CO2 sensor AND the Alcohol sensor), but this looks like some really DIY stuff.

Edit: ran across this:

http://www.parallax.com/Store/Sensors/GasSensors/tabid/843/CategoryID/91/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/547/Default.aspx

which, from what I'm reading, might interface with this:

http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/BASICStampModules/tabid/134/ProductID/1/List/1/Default.aspx?SortField=UnitCost,ProductName

These sensors are supposed to work in greenhouses, so they should be okay with the moisture in a proofing box. If $70 will buy me an CO2 sensor that can interface with my computer, I'm seriously tempted.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 07:24:05 PM by scott123 »

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2010, 07:35:49 PM »
Norma,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html with the baker's percents from the dough formulation at Reply 72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg102626.html#msg102626 in order to come up with a modified dough formulation for your purposes. In arriving at a recommended amount of cake yeast you might use for your experiment, I relied on what I did in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332 and made adjustments to compensate for the desired 10-hour fermentation period (and hopefully a doubling of the dough by that time), the considerably higher hydration in your case (which means a faster fermentation), and the fact that you would be using cake yeast instead of the IDY I used. Most of the changes were gut changes and based on a combination of experience and intuition. The simplest part was tripling the amount of IDY I calculated for your purposes by a factor of three. In the modified dough formulation presented below, I assumed a flour blend of 60% 00 flour and 40% KASL. I did not use a bowl residue compensation, but there is no reason why you can't use such a compensation should you wish to do so.

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (63%):
CY (0.062%):
Salt (1.5%):
Total (164.562%):
86.6 g  |  3.05 oz | 0.19 lbs
54.55 g  |  1.92 oz | 0.12 lbs
0.05 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs |
1.3 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
142.5 g | 5.03 oz | 0.31 lbs | TF = 0.1
*The Flour Blend comprises 60% 00 flour (51.96 grams/1.83 ounces) and 40% KASL (34.64 grams/1.22 ounces) KASL
Note: Dough is for a single 8" pizza; thickness factor = 0.10; no bowl residue compensation

As you can see, the amount of cake yeast recited in the above table is 5/100th of a gram. If you take your 17-gram (0.6-ounce) cube of cake yeast and divide it into 340 "little cubes", you want to use one of those "little cubes". I don't have any particularly good advice at this point as to how to do such a division, especially since I don't have access to cake yeast at any of the supermarkets near me to be able to visually scope out the problem better.

If you able to proceed, I suggest that you use water at a temperature of around 45 degrees F. You can rehydrate the cake yeast in a small amount of water at around 80-90 degrees F (the water at 45 degrees F is likely to shock the yeast), or you can simply crumble the cake yeast into the flour blend and stir it in the flour blend to more uniformly disperse it. You should note the finished dough temperature, the room temperature, and how long it takes the dough to double. Since I don't work with cake yeast and because of all the variables involved, I can't tell you exactly what to expect.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2010, 08:27:23 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for setting forth a formula for me to try.  I wonder after reading your How to Make a Long (20-25 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough how many problems I might encounter with this since it is warm now and I am also using a higher hydration.  I guess since the amount of cake yeast is so small, I will try to slice a tiny piece with a exacto knife.  It is hard for me to imagine how small 340 “little cubes” are, but I will do the best I can, after looking at the cube of cake yeast and trying to make a piece of the cube that small.

I appreciate you telling me to use a water temperature of about 45 degrees.  I don’t know how I will crumble that small amount of yeast into the flour, but I will try.  I might try to use your other idea of using warm water to hydrate the yeast.  I will have to think about both ideas.

I will note the finished dough temperature, room temperature and how long it takes the dough to double.  I also will note any other problems.

Norma

scott123,

I cracked up laughing when I saw those CO2 sensors.  I have enough problems with operating my computer, let alone trying to hook-up something like that.  My computer is old.  When I bought my oven for market and almost got swindled in the process, I kept writing the seller though Ebay that the oven had problems.  He kept trying to write regular email, but I wouldn’t respond to them.  He forgot to ship the legs, all kinds of things were wrong with the oven and after more than a month and a half, he said if I wrote him anymore on Ebay he was going to get his lawyer and threatened me with all kinds of stuff.  By that time the limit had expired for me to do something, but put in a complaint. Back then if you bought a business item over 1,000.00 Ebay would stand by your purchase within a month. I think now you can only pay by Paypal.  Luckily I had only responded though Ebay and they saw what was going on and how he tried to rip me off.  They gave me a seven hundred dollar credit for one item on Ebay for the price that the oven cost me to get fixed.  I used the 700.00 to get a new computer.  Guess where it is?  It is still sitting in the box, because my computer is still working.  It even has a flat screen which my computer doesn’t have.  I don’t think my old computer could take too much modern technology or I wouldn’t understand how to install a sensor.  I had enough problems getting my proofing box to work.   :-D

I hope you get to buy one of those sensors and let us all know how they work.  Would be interesting to hear if they work for dough.   ;D

Thanks for the idea,

Norma
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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2010, 09:09:37 PM »
Norma,

If my math is right, if you take a slice of the cube of fresh yeast that represents one-tenth of the cube, divide that slice into 34 pieces (maybe 17 by 2?), and take one of those little pieces, I think you should have 0.05 grams.

Peter

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2010, 09:33:12 PM »
Peter,

I always believe your math.  I will divide the cube by cutting by one-tenth and then try to cut a slice into 34 pieces.  I will then try to take one of the itsy bitsy pieces and use it in the formula.  I can already understand this is going to be challenging.   ::)

Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2010, 09:54:57 PM »
Norma,

Long, room-temperature fermented doughs are good news, bad news stories. The good news is that the doughs are easy to make and you just place the dough balls in containers and on your kitchen counter. The bad news is that room temperature is the elephant in the room and can wreak havoc on the doughs, especially at elevated temperatures. It is also a challenge to be able to measure out extremely small amounts of yeast. You may think that 0.05 grams of yeast is small, but widespreadpizza (Marc) and I both made long, room-temperature fermented doughs (in my case around 30 hours) that contained no added yeast whatsoever--no commercial yeast and no natural starter. It was just the wild yeast in the flours and whatever wild yeast were floating around our kitchens. You can see the results of my experiment along those lines at Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78779.html#msg78779. You couldn't ask for a simple dough formulation--just flour, water and salt.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Any ideas if this pizza oven would work?
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2010, 10:53:20 PM »
Peter,

That experiment in making the long room fermented dough, you and marc did was interesting. The no added yeast of any kind, made the experiment more interesting. marc’s higher room temperature gave him a lower time of total fermentation. I read about how your dough doubled in volume after about 30 hours.   I am always looking for a different flavor in the crust to taste and if this experiment works out, maybe I will be able to taste something different.  I see marc also posted favorably about the experience of trying a long room ferment without any yeast. Since I am about at sea level I also wonder what to expect.  Thanks for referencing that part of the thread. It was a very simple dough with just flour, salt and water.
               
I think I am also going to have an added elephant in the room with the extra hydration.  I remember when I was in Cartenga, South America and saw trees trunks that looked like elephants legs.  I couldn’t believe how different and big the trunks looked, even with what looked like toenails.  I don’t know how many extra elephants I am able to handle at one time.

Norma

Happy 4th of July to everyone.  I can hear the fireworks going off now.  I usually go to Lititz to see the fireworks, but didn’t want to get in the crowds tonight.  They have fireworks set off to music by the Clair Brothers, with all the extra sounds. The fireworks are spectacular. They are the people that do the sound stages for all the famous singing stars. They are from Lititz and still have all their equipment and their offices there.  The one Clair brother spoke at graduation of my granddaughter.  I could have listened to him for hours.  He was really inspiring and told how he was raised and how he came about doing all the work he does.  It is also an interesting story. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!