Author Topic: New mixer  (Read 4622 times)

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brayshaw

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2010, 06:11:33 AM »
Haha, thanks for the advice NY pizzastriver....40lbs of cookie dough on its way....  ;D

Ok, so last night we had friends over and I cooked up 4 pizzas (sorry for the lack of pictures but my digi camera run out of batteries)
Now I have my infared thermometer I was able to check on the stone temp and wow! that opened my eyes :o after an hour in the oven my stone temp was 420F! so I put it under the grill for 5 minutes and then back into the oven and it was at 530F.
Just before I baked the 3rd pizza the stone was at 360F! so 8minutes under the grill and the stone was 600F. I can't believe how bad my standard home oven is! the very last pizza I got the stone up to 720F and the pizza had a great char on the bottom and an amazing crunchy/chewy/air filled crust, best pizza I have ever made easy! (btw the last pizza was a pepperoni/chorizo and red onion with Grana Padano and Mozzerrella)


On to the dough....It was by far and away the easiest and smoothest dough I have ever handled, I thought I made a nice smooth dough in my KA but my god this was in a different league! It just felt completely different in my hands, I honestly thought that I could have stretched a 330gram dough ball to about a 60inch pizza! haha. Unreal!
I promise I'll get some pictures up next time, I am going to make another batch in my new mixer towards the end of the week.

Thanks for all the comments and help.

Paul
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 07:37:06 AM by brayshaw »


Offline pcampbell

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2010, 12:46:52 PM »


Hey buddy, VAT is 17.5% of the pre-tax total.
Am over the moon with my new mixer! :-)

Paul

Paul I am watching the videos now ....what a cool mixer...Still are we talking about like 1200 US dollars with VAT??? This mixer would be like 5000 dollars in the US as far as I know.

Maybe we need to figure out how to import these things??? :)

How much flour did you end up putting into that mixer?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 12:50:16 PM by pcampbell »
Patrick

brayshaw

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2010, 12:58:13 PM »
Hi,
The mixer cost me £762 all in (whats that in dollars)? that's including tax. I also put 5kg of flour in, my final dough ball was 8.25kg. It can take 25kg of dough though.
Cheers for watching.

Paul
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 01:26:25 PM by brayshaw »

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2010, 01:02:06 PM »
Sorry but what does VAT stand for, is it Value added tax? I search acronyms and that is the closest thing I could find.

brayshaw

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2010, 01:13:21 PM »
You are correct brickstone, VAT=17.5% so if the total was £100 you would have to pay £117.50.
And I got free delivery too! :)
Paul

brayshaw

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2010, 01:32:09 PM »
I think my mixer converts to about $1100.

Paul

Online scott123

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2010, 02:36:48 PM »
Paul, really nice video.  What kind of camera are you using?

What's the specs on that flour?  It looks a little on the weak side. If you can, try seeking out something in the 14% protein range.  12% and up will make great NY pizza, but 14% will give you a tiny bit more of that puffy chewy quality, mainly because of the greater amount of water that it can absorb.

Tom isn't recommending 9 minutes of fast speed kneading for cold fermented doughs, is he? That sounds a lot like a quick use/emergency dough. If you're cold fermenting, you'll want to scale that kneading back dramatically. Weaker flours generally require a little more kneading, but, regardless of the flour, it shouldn't be anywhere near smooth. Even if you end up not having the walk in space to refrigerate the dough and have to go with a room temp ferment, you'll still want to go with a long room temp ferment (overnight, if you can) and start out with reduced kneading. Once flour hits water... time = kneading.

It's not a huge a deal, but you might want to be careful tapping things like the thermometer and the bowl against the mixer.  Stainless steel will nick stainless steel.  Over time, the mixer bowl will inevitably get worn, but, until then, I would treat it like a newborn baby.

Overall, though, I really like the video and look forward to more.


brayshaw

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2010, 02:47:14 PM »
Thanks for the great input Scott. Here is a link to a discussion I had with Tom about my mixer and flour: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9051 you may need to scroll down a bit but the flour info is there.
Thanks for the advice Scott,  anymore is very welcome.

The camera is a Sony hd one, i'll find out the model number.

I'll definitely post more videos of the mixer.

Paul


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2010, 04:01:36 PM »
Paul,

If you want to see the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as it originated at the PMQ Recipe Bank, see http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. You will note that there is mention of sugar even though it is not in the list of ingredients. That is an omission that was never corrected. Tom usually recommends some sugar in the event the dough is to be cold fermented for more than two or three days.

Tom Lehmann also prepared a more or less general set of instructions for making and managing dough, which I received in a document from Tom and that I set forth at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396/topicseen.html#msg68396. The yeast used in the instructions is IDY, so if you will be using ADY you would have to rehydrate it in accordance with the recommended procedures.

Tom and his assistant Jeff Zeak also produced a set of videos on dough making and management, at
How to make Pizza Dough pt.1b
How to Make Pizza Dough pt.2
and
How to Make Pizza Dough pt.3


As scott123 noted, in your case you may have to adjust the mixer speeds and knead times based on the type and amount of dough you will be making.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:04:17 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2010, 04:37:14 PM »
Very educational videos on dough management.  Thanks for posting them up Peter. 

Not sure if you guys caught it, but in the video dough management part 2, at 7:50 his assistant says using the dough cold out of the fridge results in a higher incidence of blistering.   Hmmm, how interesting.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2010, 04:44:47 PM »
Not sure if you guys caught it, but in the video dough management part 2, at 7:50 his assistant says using the dough cold out of the fridge results in a higher incidence of blistering. 


Tran,

Tom, and apparently Jeff Zeak also, sometimes uses blistering as being in the same category as bubbling, whereas we tend to view blistering as what you call "pimples". Whenever someone poses a question to Tom about bubbling, he usually responds with a list of possible causes. One such example of a list is given in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2010, 04:50:14 PM »
Very educational videos on dough management. 

Tran,

My recollection is that Norma found the videos helpful when she was trying to get her dough right from a mixing and kneading standpoint. There are so many different types and models of commercial mixers with different capacities, speeds, etc., that it can be helpful to get specific instruction on finished dough conditions.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2010, 05:20:10 PM »
Thanks for the clarification about the blistering. When I first started making pizza, I would be lost when I read about getting a dough to a proper consistency or a proper state.  This is determined by how the dough looks and feels. This concept was so foreign to me, it took me awhile to learn how to get the dough there and when it was ready. These videos would have really helped me then eventhough I'm hand kneading.

For those hand kneading, you can get dough to this satiny smooth finish by incorporating periods of rest between short periods of kneading.   

Online scott123

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2010, 08:01:47 PM »
Thanks for the great input Scott. Here is a link to a discussion I had with Tom about my mixer and flour: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9051 you may need to scroll down a bit but the flour info is there.
Thanks for the advice Scott,  anymore is very welcome.


Wow, I can't believe Tom is recommending that much kneading for a cold fermented dough.  That is really overdoing it, imo, especially with a mixer with that kind of power.  Do me a favor and try at least one batch with less kneading.  You'll be surprised how extensible the dough is, both from a skin forming perspective as well as oven spring.

I'm sorry to say it, but your Cumbrian flour guy is not being entirely forthcoming.  I guess, technically, that just about any protein percentage qualifies as 'up to 14%,'  but I can tell you, without a doubt, that the flour you're working with is not 14%- it's reacting like it's far closer to 13.  Ask for written specs- specs that give you an exact protein percentage along with the margin for error. If he tells you it's 14% with a ridiculous margin of error such as 1%, then I think it's time to start looking for another supplier.  Do you have any local bakeries that do chewy baguettes? You might ask them where they're getting their flour. You may not get the massive offering of high gluten flours that we see here in the states, but you certainly should get at least more than one brand to choose from.

You also might want to ask your supplier about their aging process.  Good flour needs aging.  That's where bromate originally came from- it's an artificial aging agent. If they're not using bromate and/or enzymatic aging, then they need to age it. Young, additive free flour is inferior for baking.

And, in case you were ever considering vital wheat gluten... I can't really recommend it.  VWG is damaged gluten.  If you've ever kneaded dough way too much, you'll know the wet stringy torn mess that happens when gluten is damaged.  You can't make dough, wash the starch out, dry the resulting gluten, grind it, and then expect it to behave like the protein originally present in the flour. It just doesn't work that way.  Humpty Dumpty ain't getting put back together again.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 08:59:21 PM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2010, 08:02:08 PM »
Tran,

My recollection is that Norma found the videos helpful when she was trying to get her dough right from a mixing and kneading standpoint.

Peter

Peter and Tranman,

Peterís recollection is right.  I watched these videos over and over.  I had my problems with managing my dough when I first started.  With the videos, PMQTT and this forum, I was finally able to manage my dough.  I was one of those people that opened a pizza business, (although small), without knowing much about making pizza.  When I look back it was kinda crazy.  I knew about purchasing equipment and running a business, but didnít think making pizza could be so hard.  Little did I realize all that went into making a pizza.  I didnít realize when the temperatures changed so much at market, all that went into making sure the dough was managed right.  I still am learning and sure I wonít ever know everything about making pizza.  

Tranman,

I also can have the blistering one week and not the next.  I donít know if any of us will ever be able to figure that out.  You have learn a lot by trying different ways of making pizza and I can see you really getting far, with all your knowledge.  I am basically just trying to follow the rules, because, I am not ready to just try out new things without understanding them.  You have learned fast.  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

brayshaw

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2010, 05:30:06 AM »
Wow, I can't believe Tom is recommending that much kneading for a cold fermented dough.  That is really overdoing it, imo, especially with a mixer with that kind of power.  Do me a favor and try at least one batch with less kneading.  You'll be surprised how extensible the dough is, both from a skin forming perspective as well as oven spring.

I'm sorry to say it, but your Cumbrian flour guy is not being entirely forthcoming.  I guess, technically, that just about any protein percentage qualifies as 'up to 14%,'  but I can tell you, without a doubt, that the flour you're working with is not 14%- it's reacting like it's far closer to 13.  Ask for written specs- specs that give you an exact protein percentage along with the margin for error. If he tells you it's 14% with a ridiculous margin of error such as 1%, then I think it's time to start looking for another supplier.  Do you have any local bakeries that do chewy baguettes? You might ask them where they're getting their flour. You may not get the massive offering of high gluten flours that we see here in the states, but you certainly should get at least more than one brand to choose from.

You also might want to ask your supplier about their aging process.  Good flour needs aging.  That's where bromate originally came from- it's an artificial aging agent. If they're not using bromate and/or enzymatic aging, then they need to age it. Young, additive free flour is inferior for baking.

And, in case you were ever considering vital wheat gluten... I can't really recommend it.  VWG is damaged gluten.  If you've ever kneaded dough way too much, you'll know the wet stringy torn mess that happens when gluten is damaged.  You can't make dough, wash the starch out, dry the resulting gluten, grind it, and then expect it to behave like the protein originally present in the flour. It just doesn't work that way.  Humpty Dumpty ain't getting put back together again.


I will email the flour guy and see if I can get a spec sheet Scott, I think I will have trouble finding another hi-protein flour though (I remember looking for weeks to find this guy) but I will try.
I know a supermarket over here sell this: http://www.waitrosedeliver.com/wdeliver/servlet/JSPs/shop/display_ind_fs.jsp?line_number=006224&prrfnbr=43877
 I have a bag in my cupboard and it says on the back of the bag that it has 15g of protein per 100g (so 15%) I could use this but its not practical to use in the larger quantities that I will be needing everyday.

Cheers,


Paul
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 07:44:11 AM by brayshaw »

brayshaw

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2010, 05:54:16 AM »
Paul,

If you want to see the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as it originated at the PMQ Recipe Bank, see http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. You will note that there is mention of sugar even though it is not in the list of ingredients. That is an omission that was never corrected. Tom usually recommends some sugar in the event the dough is to be cold fermented for more than two or three days.

Tom Lehmann also prepared a more or less general set of instructions for making and managing dough, which I received in a document from Tom and that I set forth at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396/topicseen.html#msg68396. The yeast used in the instructions is IDY, so if you will be using ADY you would have to rehydrate it in accordance with the recommended procedures.

Tom and his assistant Jeff Zeak also produced a set of videos on dough making and management, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC11vo5Nmo&feature=related, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbIbTDiCJ0&feature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M&feature=related.

As scott123 noted, in your case you may have to adjust the mixer speeds and knead times based on the type and amount of dough you will be making.

Peter


Thanks for the links to those videos Peter, I noticed that Jeff says a few times that you only need to let the dough warm up for an hour or so before using and I believe that commercial coolers run cooler than a standard home fridge...
So if a dough is warmer when it comes out of a home fridge anyway, why do people say that you should let a dough warm for 2-3 hours at home?
Is only letting the dough warm for 1 hour in a commercial enviroment to extend the time period that you can use the dough? i.e     at home you pull the dough out the fridge, let it come to room temp for 3 hours then it is best to use it within 2-3hours. But in a commercial enviroment you pull the dough out the fridge, rest it for 1 hour then you have 4-5 hours use?

I may be way off there but your advice would be very welcome.

Thanks,

Paul

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:57:20 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2010, 08:12:38 AM »
I was reading one of Toms write up's and if I remember correctly he said you should let the dough rest out of the frig for an 1-1.5hr at room temp. But you shouldn't let the dough get to actual room temp before using. When I used to use a frig, I would take the dough out and let the dough rest for about 1hr then I would make the pies.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2010, 08:20:17 AM »
Paul,

These are the sorts of things you will learn when you start your new business.

The two factors that mainly govern how long to let dough balls temper are the temperature of the dough balls when they come out of the refrigerator and the room temperature. Different dough ball formulations and dough ball weights can also be factors. There is no one answer that applies to all dough balls in all cases. For example, where I live in Texas my kitchen is much warmer in the summer than in the winter. So that means that a summer dough ball in my place will warm up faster than a winter dough ball, even if both dough balls are at the same temperature when they are removed from my refrigerator. Some people get around the dough temperature/room temperature conundrum by using the dough when it reaches a particular temperature during the time that it warms up. For example, I have read that is safe to use dough balls when they have reached about 55-60 degrees F. Below that for most doughs there is an increased risk of bubbles forming in the finished crusts during baking. In my place, I prefer that the dough temperature be around 70 degrees F before using, and I use my infrared thermometer (or instant read thermometer) to take the temperature. From that time forward, the dough balls should be usable for a few more hours at most room temperatures. A dough ball made with stronger flours, such as high-gluten flour, should last the longest.

In a commercial setting where you will be making only one type of dough in the same way from day to day and in the same place and using the same cooler, there should be far fewer variables to contend with than in a home setting. Ultimately you should be able to tell when to use the dough balls by just looking at them. There are far more variables in a home setting because of different dough formulations, dough ball sizes, different refrigerators with different operating temperatures, different room temperatures, etc.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New mixer
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2010, 10:15:13 AM »
I was reading one of Toms write up's and if I remember correctly he said you should let the dough rest out of the frig for an 1-1.5hr at room temp. But you shouldn't let the dough get to actual room temp before using. When I used to use a frig, I would take the dough out and let the dough rest for about 1hr then I would make the pies.

Well Tom is the expert, but I did a test yesterday on the effects of warm proofing.  I took 2 doughballs made from the same batch and with the same dough weight.  I proofed one at room temps (76F) for 5 hours and the finishing dough temp was 69F.   The 2nd one I proofed out in the sunshine at a temp of 101F for 2 hours and finishing dough temp was 100F.   

Both baked up similarly with the warm proof having a slight bit more rise.  It was also harder to handle understandably.  But as far as texture goes, I noted no difference between proofing at room temps and proofing to and beyond room temps. 

There must be a good reason behind Tom's recommendations.  Peter, I know you've posted on this topic before but maybe you wouldn't mind elaborating the theory behind this one.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 10:18:50 AM by Tranman »