Author Topic: New mixer  (Read 5708 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2010, 01:32:09 PM »
I think my mixer converts to about $1100.

Paul


scott123

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2010, 02:36:48 PM »
Paul, really nice video.  What kind of camera are you using?

What's the specs on that flour?  It looks a little on the weak side. If you can, try seeking out something in the 14% protein range.  12% and up will make great NY pizza, but 14% will give you a tiny bit more of that puffy chewy quality, mainly because of the greater amount of water that it can absorb.

Tom isn't recommending 9 minutes of fast speed kneading for cold fermented doughs, is he? That sounds a lot like a quick use/emergency dough. If you're cold fermenting, you'll want to scale that kneading back dramatically. Weaker flours generally require a little more kneading, but, regardless of the flour, it shouldn't be anywhere near smooth. Even if you end up not having the walk in space to refrigerate the dough and have to go with a room temp ferment, you'll still want to go with a long room temp ferment (overnight, if you can) and start out with reduced kneading. Once flour hits water... time = kneading.

It's not a huge a deal, but you might want to be careful tapping things like the thermometer and the bowl against the mixer.  Stainless steel will nick stainless steel.  Over time, the mixer bowl will inevitably get worn, but, until then, I would treat it like a newborn baby.

Overall, though, I really like the video and look forward to more.


brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2010, 02:47:14 PM »
Thanks for the great input Scott. Here is a link to a discussion I had with Tom about my mixer and flour: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9051 you may need to scroll down a bit but the flour info is there.
Thanks for the advice Scott,  anymore is very welcome.

The camera is a Sony hd one, i'll find out the model number.

I'll definitely post more videos of the mixer.

Paul


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New mixer
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2010, 04:01:36 PM »
Paul,

If you want to see the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as it originated at the PMQ Recipe Bank, see http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. You will note that there is mention of sugar even though it is not in the list of ingredients. That is an omission that was never corrected. Tom usually recommends some sugar in the event the dough is to be cold fermented for more than two or three days.

Tom Lehmann also prepared a more or less general set of instructions for making and managing dough, which I received in a document from Tom and that I set forth at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396/topicseen.html#msg68396. The yeast used in the instructions is IDY, so if you will be using ADY you would have to rehydrate it in accordance with the recommended procedures.

Tom and his assistant Jeff Zeak also produced a set of videos on dough making and management, at and

As scott123 noted, in your case you may have to adjust the mixer speeds and knead times based on the type and amount of dough you will be making.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:04:17 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7229
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New mixer
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2010, 04:37:14 PM »
Very educational videos on dough management.  Thanks for posting them up Peter. 

Not sure if you guys caught it, but in the video dough management part 2, at 7:50 his assistant says using the dough cold out of the fridge results in a higher incidence of blistering.   Hmmm, how interesting.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New mixer
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2010, 04:44:47 PM »
Not sure if you guys caught it, but in the video dough management part 2, at 7:50 his assistant says using the dough cold out of the fridge results in a higher incidence of blistering. 

Tran,

Tom, and apparently Jeff Zeak also, sometimes uses blistering as being in the same category as bubbling, whereas we tend to view blistering as what you call "pimples". Whenever someone poses a question to Tom about bubbling, he usually responds with a list of possible causes. One such example of a list is given in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New mixer
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2010, 04:50:14 PM »
Very educational videos on dough management. 

Tran,

My recollection is that Norma found the videos helpful when she was trying to get her dough right from a mixing and kneading standpoint. There are so many different types and models of commercial mixers with different capacities, speeds, etc., that it can be helpful to get specific instruction on finished dough conditions.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7229
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New mixer
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2010, 05:20:10 PM »
Thanks for the clarification about the blistering. When I first started making pizza, I would be lost when I read about getting a dough to a proper consistency or a proper state.  This is determined by how the dough looks and feels. This concept was so foreign to me, it took me awhile to learn how to get the dough there and when it was ready. These videos would have really helped me then eventhough I'm hand kneading.

For those hand kneading, you can get dough to this satiny smooth finish by incorporating periods of rest between short periods of kneading.   

scott123

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2010, 08:01:47 PM »
Thanks for the great input Scott. Here is a link to a discussion I had with Tom about my mixer and flour: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9051 you may need to scroll down a bit but the flour info is there.
Thanks for the advice Scott,  anymore is very welcome.

Wow, I can't believe Tom is recommending that much kneading for a cold fermented dough.  That is really overdoing it, imo, especially with a mixer with that kind of power.  Do me a favor and try at least one batch with less kneading.  You'll be surprised how extensible the dough is, both from a skin forming perspective as well as oven spring.

I'm sorry to say it, but your Cumbrian flour guy is not being entirely forthcoming.  I guess, technically, that just about any protein percentage qualifies as 'up to 14%,'  but I can tell you, without a doubt, that the flour you're working with is not 14%- it's reacting like it's far closer to 13.  Ask for written specs- specs that give you an exact protein percentage along with the margin for error. If he tells you it's 14% with a ridiculous margin of error such as 1%, then I think it's time to start looking for another supplier.  Do you have any local bakeries that do chewy baguettes? You might ask them where they're getting their flour. You may not get the massive offering of high gluten flours that we see here in the states, but you certainly should get at least more than one brand to choose from.

You also might want to ask your supplier about their aging process.  Good flour needs aging.  That's where bromate originally came from- it's an artificial aging agent. If they're not using bromate and/or enzymatic aging, then they need to age it. Young, additive free flour is inferior for baking.

And, in case you were ever considering vital wheat gluten... I can't really recommend it.  VWG is damaged gluten.  If you've ever kneaded dough way too much, you'll know the wet stringy torn mess that happens when gluten is damaged.  You can't make dough, wash the starch out, dry the resulting gluten, grind it, and then expect it to behave like the protein originally present in the flour. It just doesn't work that way.  Humpty Dumpty ain't getting put back together again.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 08:59:21 PM by scott123 »


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24386
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: New mixer
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2010, 08:02:08 PM »
Tran,

My recollection is that Norma found the videos helpful when she was trying to get her dough right from a mixing and kneading standpoint.

Peter

Peter and Tranman,

Peterís recollection is right.  I watched these videos over and over.  I had my problems with managing my dough when I first started.  With the videos, PMQTT and this forum, I was finally able to manage my dough.  I was one of those people that opened a pizza business, (although small), without knowing much about making pizza.  When I look back it was kinda crazy.  I knew about purchasing equipment and running a business, but didnít think making pizza could be so hard.  Little did I realize all that went into making a pizza.  I didnít realize when the temperatures changed so much at market, all that went into making sure the dough was managed right.  I still am learning and sure I wonít ever know everything about making pizza.  

Tranman,

I also can have the blistering one week and not the next.  I donít know if any of us will ever be able to figure that out.  You have learn a lot by trying different ways of making pizza and I can see you really getting far, with all your knowledge.  I am basically just trying to follow the rules, because, I am not ready to just try out new things without understanding them.  You have learned fast.  :)

Norma

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2010, 05:30:06 AM »
Wow, I can't believe Tom is recommending that much kneading for a cold fermented dough.  That is really overdoing it, imo, especially with a mixer with that kind of power.  Do me a favor and try at least one batch with less kneading.  You'll be surprised how extensible the dough is, both from a skin forming perspective as well as oven spring.

I'm sorry to say it, but your Cumbrian flour guy is not being entirely forthcoming.  I guess, technically, that just about any protein percentage qualifies as 'up to 14%,'  but I can tell you, without a doubt, that the flour you're working with is not 14%- it's reacting like it's far closer to 13.  Ask for written specs- specs that give you an exact protein percentage along with the margin for error. If he tells you it's 14% with a ridiculous margin of error such as 1%, then I think it's time to start looking for another supplier.  Do you have any local bakeries that do chewy baguettes? You might ask them where they're getting their flour. You may not get the massive offering of high gluten flours that we see here in the states, but you certainly should get at least more than one brand to choose from.

You also might want to ask your supplier about their aging process.  Good flour needs aging.  That's where bromate originally came from- it's an artificial aging agent. If they're not using bromate and/or enzymatic aging, then they need to age it. Young, additive free flour is inferior for baking.

And, in case you were ever considering vital wheat gluten... I can't really recommend it.  VWG is damaged gluten.  If you've ever kneaded dough way too much, you'll know the wet stringy torn mess that happens when gluten is damaged.  You can't make dough, wash the starch out, dry the resulting gluten, grind it, and then expect it to behave like the protein originally present in the flour. It just doesn't work that way.  Humpty Dumpty ain't getting put back together again.

I will email the flour guy and see if I can get a spec sheet Scott, I think I will have trouble finding another hi-protein flour though (I remember looking for weeks to find this guy) but I will try.
I know a supermarket over here sell this: http://www.waitrosedeliver.com/wdeliver/servlet/JSPs/shop/display_ind_fs.jsp?line_number=006224&prrfnbr=43877
 I have a bag in my cupboard and it says on the back of the bag that it has 15g of protein per 100g (so 15%) I could use this but its not practical to use in the larger quantities that I will be needing everyday.

Cheers,


Paul
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 07:44:11 AM by brayshaw »

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2010, 05:54:16 AM »
Paul,

If you want to see the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as it originated at the PMQ Recipe Bank, see http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. You will note that there is mention of sugar even though it is not in the list of ingredients. That is an omission that was never corrected. Tom usually recommends some sugar in the event the dough is to be cold fermented for more than two or three days.

Tom Lehmann also prepared a more or less general set of instructions for making and managing dough, which I received in a document from Tom and that I set forth at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396/topicseen.html#msg68396. The yeast used in the instructions is IDY, so if you will be using ADY you would have to rehydrate it in accordance with the recommended procedures.

Tom and his assistant Jeff Zeak also produced a set of videos on dough making and management, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC11vo5Nmo&feature=related, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M&feature=related.

As scott123 noted, in your case you may have to adjust the mixer speeds and knead times based on the type and amount of dough you will be making.

Peter

Thanks for the links to those videos Peter, I noticed that Jeff says a few times that you only need to let the dough warm up for an hour or so before using and I believe that commercial coolers run cooler than a standard home fridge...
So if a dough is warmer when it comes out of a home fridge anyway, why do people say that you should let a dough warm for 2-3 hours at home?
Is only letting the dough warm for 1 hour in a commercial enviroment to extend the time period that you can use the dough? i.e     at home you pull the dough out the fridge, let it come to room temp for 3 hours then it is best to use it within 2-3hours. But in a commercial enviroment you pull the dough out the fridge, rest it for 1 hour then you have 4-5 hours use?

I may be way off there but your advice would be very welcome.

Thanks,

Paul

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:57:20 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
  • Location: Boston
Re: New mixer
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2010, 08:12:38 AM »
I was reading one of Toms write up's and if I remember correctly he said you should let the dough rest out of the frig for an 1-1.5hr at room temp. But you shouldn't let the dough get to actual room temp before using. When I used to use a frig, I would take the dough out and let the dough rest for about 1hr then I would make the pies.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New mixer
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2010, 08:20:17 AM »
Paul,

These are the sorts of things you will learn when you start your new business.

The two factors that mainly govern how long to let dough balls temper are the temperature of the dough balls when they come out of the refrigerator and the room temperature. Different dough ball formulations and dough ball weights can also be factors. There is no one answer that applies to all dough balls in all cases. For example, where I live in Texas my kitchen is much warmer in the summer than in the winter. So that means that a summer dough ball in my place will warm up faster than a winter dough ball, even if both dough balls are at the same temperature when they are removed from my refrigerator. Some people get around the dough temperature/room temperature conundrum by using the dough when it reaches a particular temperature during the time that it warms up. For example, I have read that is safe to use dough balls when they have reached about 55-60 degrees F. Below that for most doughs there is an increased risk of bubbles forming in the finished crusts during baking. In my place, I prefer that the dough temperature be around 70 degrees F before using, and I use my infrared thermometer (or instant read thermometer) to take the temperature. From that time forward, the dough balls should be usable for a few more hours at most room temperatures. A dough ball made with stronger flours, such as high-gluten flour, should last the longest.

In a commercial setting where you will be making only one type of dough in the same way from day to day and in the same place and using the same cooler, there should be far fewer variables to contend with than in a home setting. Ultimately you should be able to tell when to use the dough balls by just looking at them. There are far more variables in a home setting because of different dough formulations, dough ball sizes, different refrigerators with different operating temperatures, different room temperatures, etc.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7229
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New mixer
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2010, 10:15:13 AM »
I was reading one of Toms write up's and if I remember correctly he said you should let the dough rest out of the frig for an 1-1.5hr at room temp. But you shouldn't let the dough get to actual room temp before using. When I used to use a frig, I would take the dough out and let the dough rest for about 1hr then I would make the pies.

Well Tom is the expert, but I did a test yesterday on the effects of warm proofing.  I took 2 doughballs made from the same batch and with the same dough weight.  I proofed one at room temps (76F) for 5 hours and the finishing dough temp was 69F.   The 2nd one I proofed out in the sunshine at a temp of 101F for 2 hours and finishing dough temp was 100F.   

Both baked up similarly with the warm proof having a slight bit more rise.  It was also harder to handle understandably.  But as far as texture goes, I noted no difference between proofing at room temps and proofing to and beyond room temps. 

There must be a good reason behind Tom's recommendations.  Peter, I know you've posted on this topic before but maybe you wouldn't mind elaborating the theory behind this one.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 10:18:50 AM by Tranman »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New mixer
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2010, 11:39:32 AM »
Tran,

I believe it is largely a precautionary measure but based on some science. Having worked with pizza operators and having consulted in the industry for over thirty years, Tom no doubt has learned where most problems arise and, in general, how to solve or avoid them. That is perhaps why his advice on this subject is fairly generic. If pizza operators follow this piece of advice on dough tempering as well as his advice on pizza matters in general, they perhaps aren't going to have any problems with tempering and using their dough in line with his recommendations. That should mean fewer callbacks from pizza operators. If the operators are unaware of his advice or just choose to ignore it, for whatever reason, if Tom is brought in on the matter he is likely to steer them back to his generic advice. If he is dispensing advice for free, as he does at the PMQTT, then he may not have the time to probe the matter in intimate detail or engage in a lot of handholding. That said, however, Tom will frequently tell people that if what they are doing works, for whatever reason, they should continue to do it. For that reason, I don't think he would arm wrestle you because you let your dough warm up in many different ways and got satisfactory results.

The above aside, I am puzzled by your example where you proofed one of your dough balls at a room temperature of 76 degrees F for 5 hours and the finished dough temperature was 69 degrees F. If your dough ball came out of the refrigerator, and was not frozen, it is hard for me to see how the dough temperature didn't reach room temperature after five hours. I have conducted many informal tests on this subject before but I apparently did not keep my notes to be able to quote you specifics. Maybe sometime you can repeat that test.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7229
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New mixer
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2010, 12:41:40 PM »
Thanks Peter.  It was puzzling to me too!  I do not make a habit of taking dough temps after proofing.  I only ran this little test to see if I could reproduce my 2 favorite pies of all time.  Both were rush proofed at high temps of above 100F for a very short amount of time.  I thought there was something to warm proofing no one else had tried. 

So I did the test to see if the resulting crumb structure would be dramatically different, but it was not.

My fridge temp is set to around 40F.  I normally keep the doughball in a glazed ceramic bowl, so it can retain cold temps for awhile even after removing from the fridge.   After I pulled the doughball out of the fridge I did transfer it to a room temperature bowl that was deeper b/c I was concerned the doughball would rise too high.  I uncovered the plastic wrap and covered it with a moistened towel.  I was surprise to find the doughball was still cool to the touch after 5 hours at a room temp of 76F.  I checked it several times with the thermogun and got the same reading.  I did not check it with a probe temp though. 

If I get around to doing the warm proof test again, I will update you. 


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New mixer
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2010, 01:04:44 PM »
Tran,

When tempering, most professionals will leave the dough balls in the dough boxes or trays they were stored in although sometimes they will remove some of the dough balls and put them on their work surface to warm up more quickly, especially during peak times. Unless I want to delay the tempering process and to use the cold container to help do that, my usual practice is to remove the dough ball from its container, place it on my work surface (dusted with flour), and cover it with a sheet of plastic wrap so that the top of the dough ball does not dry out. It may be in your case that the damp towel kept the dough cooler than normal so it didn't approach room temperature as quickly. The damp cloth in effect increased the total mass that had to warm up. Tom's advice on tempering does not contemplate that people will do what you did with the damp towel.

Peter

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2010, 07:50:26 AM »
I am going to film myself mixing another batch of dough in my new mixer tonight and I am going to follow Terrys advice and add 70-80% of the flour and mix for 1-2 before adding the rest of the flour.
Is there any part of the mix that you guys want me to pay particular attention to with my camera?

Cheers,

Paul

Offline Trinity

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 893
  • Extra cheese please!
Re: New mixer
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2010, 08:14:27 AM »
Just save some battery power for the pizza pictures. :)

 And some pictures of the cheese you use, and the other toppings. :)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 08:17:50 AM by Trinity »
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2010, 08:21:39 AM »
My photo camera uses batteries like their going out of fashion!
I will film myself actually making the pizzas tomorrow night too so you will get a good look at the pizzas and the produce I use.

Paul

Offline Trinity

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 893
  • Extra cheese please!
Re: New mixer
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2010, 08:24:50 AM »
trin stays tuned. :pizza:
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2010, 04:34:30 PM »
Ok, so tonight I mixed a smaller batch (in my last video I used 5kg of flour) and in this video it was closer to 4kg.
I will make some pizzas tomorrow and I will get the other dough balls that I balled up in the fridge for a very long nap (3-6 days)

Again, please leave comments even if they are bad! :-D

Paul

Part 1:

Part 2:

There is even a special guest appearance!!!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 05:34:18 PM by brayshaw »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New mixer
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2010, 05:37:08 PM »
Paul,

Water at 45 degrees F is cold to yeast, and yeast does not like to be shocked, so I'd like to suggest that you add the yeast on top of the first tranche of flour. That way, if the phone rings after you have added the yeast to the water and before you add the first tranche of flour, you won't harm the yeast. It's one of those little habits that, once formed, can save you grief later on. In your case in the video, the yeast was only momentarily added to the cold water and you added the flour quickly thereafter so there shouldn't be any harm to the yeast or to the dough.

Peter

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: New mixer
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2010, 05:40:43 PM »
Thanks Peter, I will make a mental note of that.

Paul


 

pizzapan