Author Topic: JD's NY  (Read 5535 times)

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Offline JD

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #100 on: February 26, 2015, 12:05:32 PM »
I've been thinking about this for a few minutes, and I'm having trouble figuring out why anyone might want the amount of top heat that comes from a broiler (but doesn't seem to come from any of the ovens used in actual NYC slice joints, like Bakers Pride/Marsal/Blodgett ovens).

There are two main reasons (for me) to use the broiler:

1) Faster bake time: With no broiler, the top won't be done for at least 6-7 minutes. As you know, when you lengthen your bake, your pizza becomes less floppy and more crispy so the only way to go faster is to raise the stone temp and add broiler time to balance the top and bottom so they finish at the same time.

2) Cheese boil: I still need to do more testing, but last night my cheese didn't get a good boil going, and it didn't oil off at all. I personally like when my cheese oils off and creates that orange/greasy look, so the broiler helps me do that.


Deck ovens don't have a "broiler", but they do have adjustable top & bottom elements so you can have a higher top heat than bottom and basically do the same thing as a broiler.

We're dancing around the "Traditional NY pizza" topic here, in the end you need to decide what attributes you like best in your vision of NY pizza and go with it. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #101 on: February 26, 2015, 01:40:54 PM »
I'm always trying new things so don't really have a firm recipe, but if I had to it'd be pretty simple like this:

Thickness factor - 0.090
Water - 61.0%
Flour - 100.0%
Salt - 2.0%
IDY - 0.300%
Oil - 2%
Sugar - 2%

I use All-Trumps flour, 24hr cold ferment in fridge, balled immediately after mixing/kneading, stone temp of 560 or 1/2" steel temp of 525 at launch (using IR gun), balance with broiler top-heat as required. If you do not use a high protein flower like All-Trumps (14%), reduce hydration 1% per gram of protein difference. <-- This is just my best guess.
Josh,

I meant to ask you earlier but can you tell me a typical dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size for the recipe you recited? Also, did you oil the rim of the pizza and, whether you did or not, did you get any microblistering of the rim of any significance?

Peter

Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #102 on: February 26, 2015, 02:56:49 PM »
Cool to get your perspective, Josh. Even when I think I'm in a period of making one great pizza after another (which hasn't necessarily been happening lately), I still question just about everything I do. And that's OK, because whenever I get ultra critical of my pizzas, I also seem to find some capacity to see them from a different, better angle at the same time.

And what I guess I just said is this: Pizza freaking rocks!
Ryan
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Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is).

Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #103 on: February 26, 2015, 03:09:32 PM »
Peter, based on the look of his most recent pics, in addition to the fact that he has revealed his pizzas end up a full 18" after baking, I'm going to guess 22 oz (624 g) of dough for each pizza. I'm curious to find out the real answer, too.
Ryan
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Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is).

Offline JD

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #104 on: February 26, 2015, 03:19:05 PM »
Josh,

I meant to ask you earlier but can you tell me a typical dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size for the recipe you recited? Also, did you oil the rim of the pizza and, whether you did or not, did you get any microblistering of the rim of any significance?

Peter

Peter,

I usually plug in 18" into the calculator, which puts the dough weight around 649g (after loss). I have never oiled the rim on any of my pizza. What's interesting is this last pizza I made without using a broiler, I had zero signs of microblistering. All the other pizzas I've made using the broiler, have had some signs of microblistering.





Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #105 on: February 26, 2015, 03:35:02 PM »
What's interesting is this last pizza I made without using a broiler, I had zero signs of microblistering. All the other pizzas I've made using the broiler, have had some signs of microblistering.

That is interesting. For a long time I've considered blistering a sign of a dough skin that has been in the fridge for maybe a day or longer, perhaps with a considerable amount of yeast (like how I do my Tommy's clones), or dough that's near the end of its useful life. (For example, a 2-day NY style dough after four days). Or New York style dough that's used pretty much straight out of the fridge.

I'm curious to find out what you guys may have to say about the blistering in this context.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 03:39:38 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
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Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is).

Online Pete-zza

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #106 on: February 26, 2015, 03:57:08 PM »
Peter,

I have never oiled the rim on any of my pizza. What's interesting is this last pizza I made without using a broiler, I had zero signs of microblistering. All the other pizzas I've made using the broiler, have had some signs of microblistering.
Josh,

That is interesting. In the course of the NY-style thread that Norma has been very active in, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.0, I reported on what I had found about microblistering after reviewing over 1400 posts in which members used the term blister in its many forms. Two of the predominant factors for the creation of microblistering were long fermentation times and a fair amount of oven heat. In that vein, it was rare to find a dough that fermented for only a day (cold fermented) that exhibited microblistering of the rim. That is what prompted my question since you said that you used a 24-hour cold fermentation period.

Peter

Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #107 on: February 26, 2015, 04:55:54 PM »
Something just occurred to me after reading Peter's latest post: I've never had a slice in New York that had blisters. Which makes me that much more inclined to not use the broiler.
Ryan
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Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is).

Offline JD

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #108 on: February 26, 2015, 05:09:10 PM »
Josh,

That is interesting. In the course of the NY-style thread that Norma has been very active in, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.0, I reported on what I had found about microblistering after reviewing over 1400 posts in which members used the term blister in its many forms. Two of the predominant factors for the creation of microblistering were long fermentation times and a fair amount of oven heat. In that vein, it was rare to find a dough that fermented for only a day (cold fermented) that exhibited microblistering of the rim. That is what prompted my question since you said that you used a 24-hour cold fermentation period.

Peter

Peter,

I have done 24hr cold ferments that resulted in blistering. I think there may be a little more to it than fermentation times & heat, especially if you consider the breads I have made were baked around 450-500*. The breads I've made using a stainless steel bowl over top the stone resulted in "extreme" microblistering. I think a humid environment plays an equally important role in microblistering, and if you consider my pizza setup, where I put an 18" pizza on the top rack of my oven, and where a lot of evaporation/vapor occurs from cooking, it probably results in a pretty humid environment.

Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Offline JD

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #109 on: February 26, 2015, 05:31:04 PM »
That is interesting. For a long time I've considered blistering a sign of a dough skin that has been in the fridge for maybe a day or longer, perhaps with a considerable amount of yeast (like how I do my Tommy's clones), or dough that's near the end of its useful life. (For example, a 2-day NY style dough after four days). Or New York style dough that's used pretty much straight out of the fridge.

I'm curious to find out what you guys may have to say about the blistering in this context.

Ryan, I tend to under ferment my NY doughs. I'm not sure if an older dough is more likely to blister, but I'm also not sure if its a requirement.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #110 on: February 26, 2015, 05:48:59 PM »
Peter,

I have done 24hr cold ferments that resulted in blistering. I think there may be a little more to it than fermentation times & heat, especially if you consider the breads I have made were baked around 450-500*. The breads I've made using a stainless steel bowl over top the stone resulted in "extreme" microblistering. I think a humid environment plays an equally important role in microblistering, and if you consider my pizza setup, where I put an 18" pizza on the top rack of my oven, and where a lot of evaporation/vapor occurs from cooking, it probably results in a pretty humid environment.

Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Josh,

Yes, I do understand. I had started to say in my last post that having a moist surface of the rim of the skin may be a condition precedent to microblistering but I did not pursue that aspect because I didn't want to steer this thread in the same direction as the thread that I had referenced in my last post where I discussed the moisture issue at some length, as did Craig. I have seen many breads with significant microblistering but few pizzas with rim microblistering where the fermentation period was short (less than two days). In some cases where the fermentation period was short, above average heat contributed to microblistering, including using the broiler element, the convection feature or a Black Stone oven. I could not find a single emergency dough that resulted in microblistering. That is why I suspect that the extent of fermentation is a material contributor to microblistering. Maybe someone somewhere on the forum made an emergency dough with a moist rim or a rim coated with oil or baked at a high oven temperature, or some combination of these, and got microblistering, but I have not seen any such example from my research on the forum.

I can cite the posts where I reported on my review of the posts on the forum that discussed this subject if you are interested.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #111 on: February 26, 2015, 07:33:33 PM »
Josh,

Your pizzas look outstanding!  :drool:

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2015, 08:17:09 PM »
Josh,

Yes, I do understand. I had started to say in my last post that having a moist surface of the rim of the skin may be a condition precedent to microblistering but I did not pursue that aspect because I didn't want to steer this thread in the same direction as the thread that I had referenced in my last post where I discussed the moisture issue at some length, as did Craig. I have seen many breads with significant microblistering but few pizzas with rim microblistering where the fermentation period was short (less than two days). In some cases where the fermentation period was short, above average heat contributed to microblistering, including using the broiler element or the convection feature. I could not find a single emergency dough that resulted in microblistering. That is why I suspect that the extent of fermentation is a material contributor to microblistering. Maybe someone somewhere on the forum made an emergency dough with a moist rim or a rim coated with oil or baked at a high oven temperature, or some combination of these, and got microblistering, but I have not seen any such example from my research on the forum.

I can cite the posts where I reported on my review of the posts on the forum that discussed this subject if you are interested.

Peter

Peter,

I've been following your discussions with Norma regarding microblistering, and I know you have done an extensive amount of research on the subject. It has been a mystery to me as well so I tried to just watch instead of speculating. One thing I kept thinking about during your discussions were breads I made a while back that had some serious microblistering: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26375.msg308681#msg308681

These were high hydration sourdough loaves, but only 24hr fermentation. I remember noticing the microblistering because it was so different from my regular loaves, and I used a stainless bowl over top the stone. This is why I'm of the opinion humidity is a contributing factor, but of course the others you mentioned are obviously more significant.




Offline JD

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2015, 08:18:28 PM »
While the whole lineup looks good, that third picture has me fiendin' a couple of slices!


Anthony

Sorry, missed this post. Thanks!


Josh,

Your pizzas look outstanding!  :drool:

Norma

Thank you Norma!

Offline JD

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2015, 10:56:01 PM »
I've been asked to make pizza for about 20 people in the next couple months, and I figured I'd do mini-NY style in my Pizza Party oven to keep my stress level down. Tonight I did a trial to see if I could do 2 at a time, and it wasn't an issue at all.

I used a bit too much dough, and the oven was a bit too cool, but otherwise it was a fun and easy bake experience.

All between 5-6 minutes: Cheese, pepperoni, Buffalo chicken & pineapple/chicken/caramelized onion (relax, it's a friends request)

Offline CaptBob

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #115 on: February 28, 2015, 11:00:48 PM »
Josh,

Your pizzas look outstanding!  :drool:

Norma

 ^^^

Killer pies Josh!
Bob

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2015, 11:01:20 PM »
   The minis all look very tasty and professionally made.  :chef:
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Offline jvp123

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2015, 12:17:47 AM »
Great idea Josh. You've got lucky friends.  :D
Jeff

Offline deb415611

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2015, 06:48:22 AM »
Nice minis Josh!
Deb

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Re: JD's NY
« Reply #119 on: March 01, 2015, 10:07:26 AM »
There's nothing wrong with "personal" pizza's, NY style does not always have to be an 18".


Anthony
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