Author Topic: NY Style in my WFO  (Read 2052 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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NY Style in my WFO
« on: December 17, 2014, 09:27:24 AM »
Hello to all you Pizza Lovers

It's been ages since I last used my WFO but this coming week, we are having a small get-together with Family & Friends and Pizza was the request and who can refuse a Pizza Request  ;D

None the less, the last time I made Pizza in the WFO, it was a huge success. I used the recipe below with VWG and had the oven fired up quite high although I can't say for sure what Temp it was at. Margarita's took about 2.5 to 3 minutes and it was done to perfection - there was really no time to take much Photo's - it was basically 1 Pizza in the Oven whilst my wife prepped the next - once it was out the oven, it was ravished by my quests - we just couldn't keep up. I managed to taste 1 slice though and it was best I've made thus far and I'm a huge critic of my own food  :angel:.

Flour (100%):    811 g
VWG             :      15 g
Water (60%):    495.7 g  |  17.48 oz | 1.09 lbs
IDY (0.25%):    2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    14.46 g | 0.51 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.59 tsp | 0.86 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1%):    8.26 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
Total (163%):   1346.65 g | 47.5 oz | 2.97 lbs | TF = 0.105
Single Ball:   336.66 g | 11.88 oz | 0.74 lbs


I have 1 small problem though for next weeks gathering - I don't have VWG and the companies don't want to sell any to me in small quantities - they want me to purchase a whole 25KG bag which will take me a few years to finish and I'm certain it will just go bad by the time I'm even half way through the bag.

On my previous attempt, I used Bread Flour with a protein content of 13.1% and I added enough VWG to push the Bread Flour up to 14.2%.

1. My question is if I leave out the VWG, should I be on the look out for anything so as to not make a mess up of the Pizza's?
2. I'd like to try out Calzone - I did try this recipe before for a Calzone but I found that it ended up too bready and thick - is there any specific recipe for Calzone?

I look forward to hearing from you guys soon.
Until then, take care
PM
Regards Mo


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 09:42:17 AM »
I don't think you need VWG - particularly not since you are using bread flour. Even if all I had was AP, I would not add VWG. I kind of doubt that you will even notice the difference if you leave it out. How long are you fermenting the dough?

I'm surprised you can buy VWG at your local grocery. If you really want it, I'm sure Amazon has lots of VWG in small packages that they would be happy to deliver straight to your front door. 
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline JD

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 09:46:17 AM »
I kind of doubt that you will even notice the difference if you leave it out.

 ^^^

Knead a little longer or reduce hydration 1-2% if you're worried about dough strength, but otherwise you should be perfectly fine.

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 10:34:50 AM »
I don't think you need VWG - particularly not since you are using bread flour. Even if all I had was AP, I would not add VWG. I kind of doubt that you will even notice the difference if you leave it out. How long are you fermenting the dough?

I'm surprised you can buy VWG at your local grocery. If you really want it, I'm sure Amazon has lots of VWG in small packages that they would be happy to deliver straight to your front door. 

Thanks Craig - last time I managed to get VWG from a company that was kind enough to give me a small batch for testing - now no one wants to be so kind even though I offered to pay for it  :P

I think I'll just skip the VWG altogether - I'm sure the WFO bridges the gap between High Gluten Flour and Bread Flour - the reason I say this is a few months back, I used this very same formula and the same bread flour with the addition of VWG in my Home Oven and baked on 240 Degree C - The resulting Pizza was fantastic although it doesn't come close to WFO, but my guest who's a critic of note enjoyed it and compared it quite close to the WFO Pizza I made  :o
2 Weeks ago, I attempted this very same formula using the same Bread Flour but I skipped the VWG and the resulting Pizza wasn't good at all - the taste of raw dough came through and it was very bread-like - no airiness in it - hardly had a crisp - it didn't brown as well - let's say, it was just an awful attempt.

My deduction is that the VWG helps with a Home Oven but the High Temp of a WFO should close that gap.

^^^

Knead a little longer or reduce hydration 1-2% if you're worried about dough strength, but otherwise you should be perfectly fine.
Thanks JD - I think I'll just skip it alltogether.
Regards Mo

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2014, 11:08:43 AM »
My guess is that the differences you observed were caused by something(s) other than the VWG.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2014, 11:14:51 AM »
I'm surprised you can buy VWG at your local grocery. If you really want it, I'm sure Amazon has lots of VWG in small packages that they would be happy to deliver straight to your front door.
Craig,

To the best of my knowledge, PizzaManic is in South Africa. I wish our members who live abroad would enter something below their avatars to let us know that they are not in the U.S. so that proper responses can be entered (or not at all).

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2014, 11:20:19 AM »
Craig,

To the best of my knowledge, PizzaManic is in South Africa. I wish our members who live abroad would enter something below their avatars to let us know that they are not in the U.S. so that proper responses can be entered (or not at all).

Peter

 ^^^

I also wish people would put their real name (or at least something and pretend it is their real name) in the signature or someplace so we could address them by name.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2014, 04:28:22 AM »
Hi Guys

Pete-zza - Thanks for bringing to my attention the fact that I never had my location mentioned - I've added it on so hopefully in future it makes easier for other members to respond  :)

Craig - A name is definitely more personal when responding to someone so I've update my profile - I'm known as Mo.

Thanks a mill for the responses guys
Mo
Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2014, 01:44:31 AM »
How long are you fermenting the dough?

Sorry, forgot to answer your question. I'm aiming for 36 hours cold fermentation in Bulk and then Ball at room temp for +-6 hours.

Any suggestions for a Dough Formula for a Calzone? I'm sure I can use the same formula as the NY Style but what TF should I use since a Calzone needs to be thin.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 01:56:35 AM by PizzaManic »
Regards Mo


Offline vtsteve

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2014, 09:51:20 PM »
I'd try around 0.07
In grams we trust. :)

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2014, 12:43:23 AM »
Thanks - will give that a go.
Regards Mo

Offline pythonic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2014, 10:56:53 PM »
I'll check back on your results but if you want a thin calzone you must roll it thinner.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2014, 02:15:39 AM »
Hi Guys

Yesterday, I prepped my dough for tomorrows get together. Everything went quite well - using the same formula in this thread, I made 4 separate batches of bulk dough. Each batch will yield 4 dough balls. The plan was to ball the dough atleast 4-5 hours before stretching out the Pizza and baking however this morning I popped open the fridge and noticed that the dough had almost trippled in size from the look of things. I used Ice Water when prepping the dough hoping to slow down yeast activity but it's really hot here in SA - temps are +-30 Degrees Celsius and humidity is through the rooff  :-D

It's been +- 9 hours since the dough has been sitting in the fridge and I'm panicking because it still has to survive another 24-26 hours before it's balled and ready to use. I smelled the dough and it doesn't seem over fermented yet - no alcohol aroma coming through but I was just wondering if I should take any of the steps below or do you guys have any suggestions.

1. Just leave it as is and stop tinkering with it.\
2. Reball it and then put it in the freezer to retard the fermentation

I've attached a pic of 1 batch - as you see theres quite a bit of activity in there - I did notice some of the other batches didn't grow quite as considerably as this one did.
Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2014, 05:43:01 AM »
Hi Guys

Just to pick-up where I left off.

At 18 hours, the dough had grown to way over 3 times it's size. I forgot to mention that I found some VWG - it was just enough to make 3 Dough Balls so I thought it would be a good opportunity to make it and compare with just the Bread Flour. What I did notice was the following.

1) The VWG dough was the first batch I prepped the night before and this was placed right at the back of my fridge - this dough grew very slowly and consistently.
2) The other Dough Balls were placed in front of this batch and they grew much quicker. The largest batch I had was 5 dough balls in a bulk dough and this grew the fastest.

I don't know if you guys can deduce anything from the above but I'm wondering whether the VWG could have contributed to the slow fermentation or was is just placed in a part of the fridge that was just colder than other parts - my guess is the fridge has more to do with the growth than the VWG.

None the less, back to the end results.

33 Hours - I removed each batch of dough from the fridge and balled them - placed it on an oiled tray and put it back in fridge - at this point in time, the dough was really over fermented from a dough handling point of view - in terms of smell, I could not really detect over fermentation. In terms of Dough Handling, it was very sticky and difficult to ball so I had to keep oiling my hands and ball using this technique. By now, the outside temperature had been registering at around 30 Degrees Celcius.

38 Hours - We were ready to Bake. The first tray was removed from the Fridge and the dough had really grown from the original ball size to 3 times it's size - Outside temp had now registered well over 35 Degrees Celsius. I had my wife rolling out the doughs, place it on my peel then top it - I load it into my oven and return the peel to her whilst I use my second peel to turn and remove from the oven - by then she's ready with the next pie. The Dough balls were really really hard to handle. It was absolutely sticky and just kept sticking onto her hands no matter how much flour she used for dusting but also being cautious not to over flour the skin. She eventually got a handle around it and managed to overcome the stickiness of the dough but definitely next time I need ensure the dough doesn't over ferment.

39.5 Hours - We were 15 Pizza's down by now but the outside temps just kept increasing - the Dough Balls were just not surviving and they kept increasing in size - the dough had now reached a consistency such that if a freshly made ball where the IDY hadn't started activating yet had a consistency of 10 and the consistency of water was a 1 then my dough ball at this point in time with the high heat and over fermentation was at a consistency of 4 - that's almost how liquid the dough ended up being if that makes any sense. Eventually everyone was well saturated - I think the heat made everyone more thirsty than hungry - I know whilst in front of the fire, I had downed more than 2L of liquids in that 2 hours  :drool:

Overall Comments on the Final Pizza

Bread Flour + VWG NY - This Pizza was as good as the last time I did it. The dough springs really well once it hits the oven floor. Overall everyone enjoyed it.

Just Bread Flour NY - Compared to the VWG, I personally couldn't detect much of a difference but then again with the immense pressure we were under to deliver the Pizza's, I hadn't had enough time to do a comparison however I did notice this one charred a little better that the one with VWG - don't know if it was just pure coincidence.

Johnny's Style - I was really impressed with this Pizza - I found it charred very well compared to the Lehmans NY above - It ends up with a slight cornicone and tapers down to a thin centre. Flavour wise, I really enjoyed it although I noticed the cornicone had a little bit of a tougher crust compared to the Lehman NY - I'm not sure what contributes to that but I would like for it to have a slightly more lighter crisp.

Calzone - I failed again with the Calzone - It didn't crisp up all the way through and ended up having a tough chew at the crust - it lacked airiness and no crisp - I still need to experiment further.

Overall, everyone really enjoyed the Pizza's - like always, I never ever get a chance to do Photo's but I did ask one or 2 of my guests to grab a few shots - It's not the best but will have to suffice - I would have loved to capture more detail like crumb shots and underneath as well as in the oven - before it's baked, etc - maybe next time  :)

As for the rest of the dough balls that didn't get used - it was about 10 of them - I ended up re-balling them and dumping them straight in to the freezer - you can imagine how much these had grown by now but lets see how's the outcome when I use it next which will hopefully be in 2 days time.

Until then, feel free to leave me some suggestions on how to overcome some of the shortfalls I ran in to - for one I know to keep all of the dough cold especially on a hot day like that until it's ready to be rolled out.

Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2015, 03:02:03 AM »
Yesterday we decided to to fire up the oven again and bake the frozen doughs from the last bake off.

My oven took about 3 hours to get really hot but what I found is that all of the sooth didn't clear especially the section opposite of where my fire was lit - I'm wondering whether next time I should move the fire around to ensure even heating.

I removed the dough from the freezer about 10 hours before use and left it in the fridge to thaw out. When I when to check it after about 7 hours, I notice the dough ball was just a flat mass of dough - it lost its round ball shape completetly. I decided to ball each dough ball - 7 in total 4 of which was Craigs Neo Style.
Each dough was wrapped in a plastic packet so it was easy to remove but was wreaking of alcohol which meant it was really over-fermented. It was very stick so using a little flour, about 2tsp for each dough ball, I managed to ball them up into a nice tight ball and placed them back into the fridge.

I removed 3 Balls 1 hour before use and left it at room temp - the temp yesterday wasn't too bad but it was fairly warm. I cleaned out all of the ash from oven leaving just large pieces of coal and then added some fresh wood which caught alight almost instantly. I gave it about 10 minutes to settle and the first dough ball was rolled - it was the Lehman NY Style (Margarita Pic without Tomatoes) - Dough was really sticky still but we managed to roll it out fairly easily and place it on my loading peel and then loaded it in to the oven. Bake time was approx. 3.5 mins per pie.

Overall we were really impressed with the final outcome although I found that the Pizza's didn't crisp up enough at the centre like it did at the cornicone. The flavour of the dough was nice and it had a degree of airiness to it but I'd like to hopefully improve on that in future. What I would really like to do it create more charred spots like the one you see in the pics below - almost all my Pizzas had just 2 or 3 of those spots but I found that part of the Pizza with most amount of airiness - light and crisp.

What's the ideal bake time for a NY Style in a WFO?

Take care
Mo
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 03:06:30 AM by PizzaManic »
Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2015, 03:09:48 AM »
and More Pics  :)
Regards Mo

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015, 11:48:17 AM »
What's the ideal bake time for a NY Style in a WFO?

I think it is the same as the ideal bake time for NY Style in any other type of oven. What that time is, however has been the subject of much, and often contentious debate.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline Polo1523

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2015, 02:21:28 PM »
Hi Pizza manic,

I have a WFO and have tried different temps, when my WFO is really hot, I do the 3 min bake and it turns good crispy to eat at the moment however when it cools down a bit is not that crispy it is a quick bake so you don't give enough time to evaporate the liquid from the doug inside the crust, and if I do a longer bake around 5 min I do get a better result, my guess is the longer it bakes liquid evaporates and you get a firm crust, that is just my thoughts based on day to day tests.
Regards Leo.

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2015, 09:55:33 AM »
Hi Polo

That is exactly what's happening with my Pies and I never realised it. When I'm ready to pull it out the oven, the cheese is all bubbly with burned spots here and there - just the way I like it. The Pie itself is nicely charred and any more would render it burned - the feel of the pie whilst in the Oven seems nice and crispy so my instinct tells me it's ready.

I pull it out at this point and it feels crispy however the few slices that I did taste wasn't as crispy as I remember it was when it came out the oven - tasting was 6 to 7 minutes after removing from the Oven.

I was always under the impression that hot is best - quickest bake time makes a fantastic pie - I'm not denouncing this theory but for what I'm looking for - a little longer time in the oven wont hurt and in fact give me a pie that's crispy right through for a longer time.

Thanks for the heads up on that one - next time I'm going to aim for a 5 to 6 minute bake time and see how it goes.
Regards Mo

Offline ssg263

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2015, 09:53:59 PM »
Hi, this looks really good!  Were the slices foldable or with that short a bake time do things get messy when picking it up?

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style in my WFO
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2015, 09:28:22 AM »
The slices were fairly foldable - I don't remember it being messy at all.
Regards Mo