Author Topic: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC  (Read 1698 times)

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Offline Kentis

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Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« on: June 21, 2010, 03:32:17 AM »
I've been thinking/dreaming about opening a pizza joint in NYC. I think that most of the people here on the boards has at least once thought about running their own place. The thing is that couple of weeks ago I finished reading a book that is called Pizza Tiger. It is a biography book of Tom Monahan: the guy who founded the Domino's pizza chain. The book is very interesting and inspirational so it started a bunch of pizza shop thoughts in my head. I then took a rational standpoint and asked myself why would NYC need my pizza, there are too many pizza joints if you ask me. Sure, even if if I will make a great-tasting pizza, I think that making a real profit would take a lot of years to succeed. I then began looking at the fast food chains and starting thinking what makes them different from your regular pizza shops and the answer that I reached was that national pizza chains own a lot of their own distinctive intellectual property. A good example would be the P'zone trademark that belong to Pizza Hut. Sure a lot of places can copy this item but only Pizza Hut can use it, because it own the trademark for the name. These kinds of clever and distinctive names play a lot for the success of a business. I don't have my own pizza shop and most likely will never own one, even though I dream about it, but I already started making a list of clever names and phrases. I even bought a domain name (website name like www.****.com) that I think is distinctive and is easy to remember and would fit nice for pizza shop name. Let me know what you think about the trademarks and intellectual property and how it plays into national chains and also applies to the mom-n-pop joints.

Offline sear

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 09:34:24 AM »
id say the pizza has to be good first.
and or you have to spend a lot of money advertising to get people to know the name.

i dont think youll have any luck trying to sell a name of a pizza place that has no history behind it.

Offline pcampbell

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2010, 11:50:34 AM »
I think in plays very little role in NYC pizza shops.    The most successful places in NYC are mostly 1 unit independent shops with some kind of thing they are well known for .  Now we are all a bit biased, because few of us here eat "big 3" pizza.  However look at how many chains there are in NYC... I have only ever seen a Sbarro, plus Dominoes delivery guys on bicycles.  There must be hundred of independent pizza shops for every franchise  unit in NYC.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 11:56:05 AM by pcampbell »
Patrick

Offline Kentis

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2010, 08:17:08 PM »
id say the pizza has to be good first.
and or you have to spend a lot of money advertising to get people to know the name.

i dont think youll have any luck trying to sell a name of a pizza place that has no history behind it.

Yes, I agree that the pizza has to be good, but for a place to also be successful and utilize the full potential it also has to make itself stand out from the crowd. I think that most of the places have the capacity to make good pies, but I can definitely see how they can also try to cut corners so they could have a higher markup. There is a place in the neighborhood who tries the hardest (in the neighborhood) to stand out, but they have the most crappiest pies in the whole town (my opinion), they are so bad that I even considered about starting up a gripe website on this place.

I am sure that there are lots of unknown places in NYC that make good pizza but no one really knows about them, or if they are known then they are known as your average hole-in-the-wall joint. But if these kind of places would try to market themselves with a little bit of ingenuity then I am confident that people would catch up and that the owners will be happy.

You don't have to sell a history, its all about the customer perception of the product (real and perceived), but this does not mean that using deceptive advertising or shady practices is okay.

This is the place that has crappy pizza and tries high to market themselves. I personally don't consider an establishment that has a logo that is a heart as a serious establishment. I would be embarrassed to go to such place or even to bring someone inside. This is a cheesy example:


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2010, 11:17:05 PM »
Wha??? You don't like the talking hearts?   :P  Yeah if you have great pizza, I wouldn't think you'd have to advertise much.  People will advertise for you via word of mouth.

I think if you can make a great pizza that is slightly different than your typical NY pie, there's enough ppl that would want to try something different to make you successful. 

Offline sear

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 10:07:51 AM »

I am sure that there are lots of unknown places in NYC that make good pizza but no one really knows about them, or if they are known then they are known as your average hole-in-the-wall joint. But if these kind of places would try to market themselves with a little bit of ingenuity then I am confident that people would catch up and that the owners will be happy.


Sure, that goes for every business. In a already saturated NYC pizza market its going to be hard.
How much advertising does Difaro do ? alot of people know that name and he operates out of a below average hole in the wall.
 a snappy name/domain name is not much of the equation   

Offline sear

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 01:18:14 PM »
if you havent read this post on di fara's check it out

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9005.0.html

"A $5 Di Fara slice is thin and crispy, the dough a few seconds shy of burnt, topped with a tangy, subtle sauce, served on a paper plate, over a sheet of wax paper, in an overheated 44-year-old pizzeria with a worn floor, a drippy air-conditioner and a handwritten sign reading, “Bathroom is out of order.”"

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 01:31:10 PM »
You are giving New Yorkers too much credit.
There are hundreds of mediocre  shops selling dry tasteless slices that are bustling.
The motto seems to be, if you can't make it good, make it big.


Offline sear

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 02:05:35 PM »

The motto seems to be, if you can't make it good, make it big.



dont forget cheap !  :-D

Offline dhs

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 02:48:51 PM »
In NY, the level of pie you have to create can be pretty low to have a surviving slice joint. Where Amore Mio is, I imagine there are 4-5 other slice places within 1/2 a mile. L&B is within a couple of miles and Totonno's is within 4-5 miles, ditto DiFara's. Hundreds of pizza places are able to exist in Brooklyn. It is just a shear volume of people that are around and an amazing appetite for pizza, even pretty bad stuff. Standing out, like Amore Mio is trying to do, is not a bad thing but it should not come at the expense of other important areas.

Figure out what sort of place you want to be and remember that no one part is going to make it a success. Lots of things have to be in line to make it work. Food, location, marketing, price, costs, etc etc.. Some will require more attention than others depending on the situation, but all will need to be accounted for to move forward.

Offline IndyRob

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2010, 08:30:21 PM »
I think you may be putting the cart before the horse.  Brands become successful as a result of a lot of different factors coming together.  Dominoes doesn't have a compelling name or logo - yet it is distinctive and iconic and has become associated with quick and hot.  Pizza Hut is, IMHO, a stupid name.  Yet, it's descriptive and distinctive.  Little Caesar's is a little more clever in a comical sort of way, but 'Little Paisano's' could have worked just as well.

None of these brands succeeded on the strength of their name.  A brand means a word or image that has come to represent something tangible.  That takes a lot of work.  The value of intellectual property comes from what you have invested in the brand and the success you have had with it.

We have a great example here in Indianapolis.  If you come here and ask around about pizza, one of the places you'll be directed to is Bazbeaux Pizza.  The name Bazbeaux is completely meaningless.  It's a fictional name of a fictional court jester concocted by the founders.  Google it.  I just did and even on page 64 the results are still relevant (although they may be in Chinese).  A meaningless name, unique in the world, was turned into a brand.

To shift gears, I was once watching a PBS program about inventing.  While watching this I received one of the most stinging cold slaps to the face I've ever had.  An experienced patent attorney said "Most people think they can capitalize on their great idea.  But I've got news for you.  Not only has somebody already had your latest idea, they've had your next one."  The first one to successfully capitalize on the idea will succeed.  An idea, in and of itself, is not sufficient.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 08:34:58 PM by IndyRob »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2010, 09:21:44 PM »
Pizza Hut is, IMHO, a stupid name.

IndyRob,

This is a bit off-topic but there is actually an interesting story behind how the Pizza Hut name came into being. When the Carney brothers, two of the founders of what is now known as the Pizza Hut chain, opened their first pizzeria, they rented a hut-shaped building in Wichita, Kansas. The sign that came with the building could only take three letters after the name "Pizza". Because of the hut-shaped building, they simply went with the name "Hut" for the final three letters on the sign.

Peter

Offline IndyRob

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2010, 07:28:08 PM »
IndyRob,

This is a bit off-topic but there is actually an interesting story behind how the Pizza Hut name came into being. When the Carney brothers, two of the founders of what is now known as the Pizza Hut chain, opened their first pizzeria, they rented a hut-shaped building in Wichita, Kansas. The sign that came with the building could only take three letters after the name "Pizza". Because of the hut-shaped building, they simply went with the name "Hut" for the final three letters on the sign.

Now that you bring it up, I think I did see that on some food/travel channel show.  But it goes to my point that names don't make brands.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Opening a Pizza Joint in NYC
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2010, 08:30:36 AM »
I agree with others here in saying you must have a product first, particularly when considering your area.

NYC is one thing, but Brooklyn is another. It could be argued that Brooklyn is the Kingdom of Heaven when it comes to pizza: Totonno's Coney Island, L&B Spumoni Gardens, DiFara, Motorino Williamsburg, Paulie Gee's, Lucali, Roberta's, Toby's Public House, Grimaldi's, South Brooklyn Pizza, etc, etc. The list of better than average to great pizza joints that immediately springs to mind in Brooklyn is unbelievable. Generally, what distinguishes places like these is that their product stands out.

We could all argue for days whether pizzeria "x" is "great" or not, but (for example), I don't think many people would call Totonno's Coney Island a crappy pizza. Granted, they have a coal oven to tie into the lore of the whole NYC coal oven pizzeria mystique and a history of some quirky pizzamakers and owners, but a lot of the reason for the continued success and perception of Totonno's is because of the pizza itself. Ditto for DiFara. Yes, people come to be in close proximity to Mr. DeMarco, but generally people come to DiFara because of the product. And neither Totonno's or DiFara are close to Manhattan (40min to 1hr subway ride), yet people visiting Manhattan make the trek out to these places by the dozens because of tales of great pizza.

And while (in my opinion) a place like Roberta's does not serve a "great" pizza, they do serve much better than average pizza and add in one of the cooler spaces (outside seating, DIY ethic; have their own gardens outside and are adding laying hens as well!) and it's a good place to spend time in. But again, while the space is interesting and other food items than pizza are served, the product (pizza) itself is a good, solid product with creative toppings that enhances the fact there is a cool space there. It takes more than just a space.

I think the marketing and intellectual property of the bigger chains works well and influences buying decisions in other areas of the country. Particularly rural areas and many cities where there is not so many pizzerias per capita and/or in areas without a long standing, embedded pizza culture (as in most of the country). But NYC is definitely different. While I would argue that there is nowhere else in the country with such a high number of mediocre pizza joints, New Yorkers by and large cannot be bullshitted when it comes to pizza.

A few of the pizzeria's I listed above had minimal traditional marketing at all.....purely word of mouth, smart use of the internet and blogs and other very low cost guerrilla marketing techniques. Those same pizzerias either did or will make a profit much sooner than most would think. Without the deep pockets of a big corporate chain or fancy advertising campaigns, a good amount of the newish, artisinal pizza places are making headwaves in a very competitive market. What generated the grass roots excitement and continued patronage of these places is the very same thing that still draws people to places like Totonno's and DiFara -- tales of great pizza.

With the sheer volume of people living in NYC (Brooklyn alone would be the country's 5th largest city if it was its own municipality separate from NYC), given a good location and lots of other factors which I don't pretend to know, there is always room for much better than average pizza. Good luck --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell


 



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