Attempting my first white pizza

[Jackie Tran]

As always, thanks for the info Scott.  My wife is a big Alfredo fan where as I am not so I haven't ever devoted much time to it.  I've been cheating and using the jarred stuff but she's been happy since it's a departure from my regular pies. 

I think I'll search for a real alfredo sauce recipe and make both for comparison.  I too have always found Alfredo sauce on the rich side especially with cheese, but the woman loves it.  She should really be happy with me tonight and maybe even forget about that broken table.   

Paul, if you are not too busy later to properly bake them in the commercial oven, that would be great.  it would give you some time between now and then to work out all the kinks of the new oven and optimize the baking technique. 

[brayshaw]

Jackie Tran, my pizza oven is still in the box being stored at my dad's work. I am waiting for my premises, so I haven't got my hands on the pizza oven yet as I wanted to keep it in it's protective box until I was in my shop. (I have been to look at the box though, it's a very nice box too)

I am going to be in my shop for 3-4weeks before we open anyway so I should iron out the oven and bake times during that period.

Paul

[scott123]

Chau, as far as I'm concerned, it's almost impossible to make a bad alfredo.  Just make sure to buy the good parm from TJs.  Not the stravecchio or the 'faux' parm, Grana Padano- Get the Parmigiano Reggiano. The king of cheeses .

[Pete-zza]

It has got me thinking, when I open my business it isn't really practical to have 6 fridges on the go... do any of you know of independent pizza operators with really long cold ferments?

Paul,

A similar question was once posed to Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&p=26961&hilit=#p26961. Tom's reply is given at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&p=26961&hilit=#p26964. I would agree with Tom on what is a typical fermentation period for the average independent pizza operator. I pay close attention to what I read about useful dough lives and I would say that 1-2 days of cold fermentation is very common (the most common) and occasionally 3 days. I have read of 6-7 days but that would be very rare, almost unheard of. Except, of course, on this forum. However, the logistics of making doughs with long dough lives in a commercial setting are much more challenging than in a home setting where only a few dough balls are involved.

Outside of the independent pizza operator environment, there are chains in the U.S. that deliver dough balls to their stores twice a week and they are able to make dough balls that last up to about 8 days. But they have to use tricks in making their doughs and keep everything very cold, from their production facilities to refrigerated trucks, etc. Examples are Papa John's and Domino's.

Peter

[norma427]

scott123,

I know bechamel is a good white sauce to use on pizzas.  I didn’t have any problems with the garlic white sauce with cream cheese with added milk. In my opinion the key is to just melt the mixture of milk and cream cheese over low heat. I am sure you don’t want to cook it.  I know of some Italian pizza shops in our area that use basically the same ingredients for their white pizzas and as far as I know, they aren’t having any problems with the cream cheese.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has tried cream cheese when making a white sauce for a pizza.

Norma

Paul,

I would like to conduct the experiments for you, but right now I am involved in three projects.  The Ultra-Thin par-baked crusts, NJ Boardwalk pizza, and trying ideas out in my BBQ grill firebrick set-up.  At this time, I am quite busy with those and trying to run my pizza stand.  Maybe sometime in the future if you want to compare something I can.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I also want to add that the 6 day dough seemed to brown a lot easier than my usual 1 day dough in my home oven. Anyone else found that?

Paul,

I have made cold fermented doughs without any added sugar and they have lasted for up to 23 days with good final crust coloration and, for some of the intermediate doughs, a decidedly sweet crust flavor. The enzymes that are responsible for converting damaged starch to natural sugars for use by the yeast and for crust coloration purposes slow down during the period of cold fermentation, along with the yeast, so it can take some time to produce the sugars. That might show up in the form of less coloration after only one day of cold fermentation. Over several days of cold fermentation, and especially if a small amount of yeast is used in the dough formulation, there may be an excess of natural sugars produced beyond the needs of the yeast itself. That excess sugar production can be used to improve the color of the crust.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Chau, as far as I'm concerned, it's almost impossible to make a bad alfredo.  Just make sure to buy the good parm from TJs.  Not the stravecchio or the 'faux' parm, Grana Padano- Get the Parmigiano Reggiano. The king of cheeses .

thx Scott. Shucks, I just bought the grana padano not long ago but once I'm done with that I'll give the others a try. What I really like is the asiago cheese sauce from Macaroni Grill so I may even try to make that.

[scott123]

thx Scott. Shucks, I just bought the grana padano not long ago but once I'm done with that I'll give the others a try. What I really like is the asiago cheese sauce from Macaroni Grill so I may even try to make that.

I'm not saying grana padano is bad, per say (DiFara's puts it on their pies), but, for alfredo sauce, you really want the extra umph from real parm.

An asiago cheese sauce is definitely going to involve starch.  For the Macaroni grill, it's most likely a modified starch of some kind. For the home chef, it's roux.

[scott123]

scott123,

I know bechamel is a good white sauce to use on pizzas.  I didn’t have any problems with the garlic white sauce with cream cheese with added milk. In my opinion the key is to just melt the mixture of milk and cream cheese over low heat. I am sure you don’t want to cook it.  I know of some Italian pizza shops in our area that use basically the same ingredients for their white pizzas and as far as I know, they aren’t having any problems with the cream cheese.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has tried cream cheese when making a white sauce for a pizza.

Norma

Norma, as I said before, cream cheese sauce can be successful if heated gently, but the recipe you posted talks about bubbling (boiling), and, even if you treat the sauce with kid gloves and only heat it gently, it will boil when the pizza bakes. Cream cheese contains acid and acid curdles milk when heated.  Sometimes if the milk is really fresh, it's difficult to curdle, and, as I said, cream cheese is manufactured with some stabilizing/anti-curdling ingredients, but, if you bring it to a boil on pizza, the chances of ending up with curds and whey are high.

And, as far as pizzerias using cream cheese... maybe it's different in PA, but in the NY area, I've never heard of cream cheese going on a white pizza. It's always ricotta and mozzarella.

[norma427]

scott123,

When I made the recipe, I knew not to boil the cream cheese.  I didn’t even look at how it told to make the recipe.  I just added the ingredients as I thought they should be added.  Maybe I should have looked over the instructions for the recipe, before I posted it.  I make all kind of recipes and don’t usually look at instructions, if I think I know what to do.  I had tried ricotta on a pizza before and didn’t like the flavor as much as the cream cheese.  I even made fresh ricotta from mozzarella I had made.  It still didn’t have the flavor of the cream cheese.  When that recipe was made you couldn’t tell there was cream cheese in the mixture. 

I know cream cheese with other ingredients sounds unusual on a pizza, but if you have time someday, give it a try and let me know what you think.

I don't cook any of my sauces except for the one that uses grape tomatoes that are slowly roasted, before the other ingredients are added.

I know we aren’t in NY city in our area.  I have a daughter that lives in Brooklyn, NY and have tried many NY pizzas at regular pizza places.  I am always open to new ideas and trying different ways to experiment.

Sorry I didn’t give more detailed instructions.   

Norma

[sear]

ive never heard of the cream cheese for white sauce either..
i've been making mine with ricotta, white wine, thyme, garlic. i do heat the mixture for a bit and its very good
next time i make some i will try adding some cream cheese into the mix 

[Jackie Tran]

I just did a quick google search for Alfredo sauce and took a look at about 4 different recipes.  A couple were very similar and probably came from the same original recipe.   Here's 2 I found that look promising.  I think I can just substitute asiago cheese for the parmesan or use a combination for a different flavor. 

1/4 cup butter melted
3 cloves of garlic
1 cup of parmesan cheese grated
1/2 cup heavy cream
Salt and Pepper to taste

Melt butter over med heat and saute garlic for about a min or two.  Don't brown the garlic.  Add the other ingredients and stir until combined.  Remove from heat and allow to cool.

2nd recipe
4 T of butter
1/4 tsp salt
4 T flour
1 cup of cream or milk
3/4 cup of Parmesan or Romano cheese grated

Melt butter over medium heat.  Add other ingredients and stir until thickened.  Set aside and let cool.

For those who have done these or something similar, is the flour necessary?  Does the cheese and garlic cover up the taste of the flour.  I imagine it's there as a thickening agent. 

Another similar recipe also called for a garlic butter sauce to be spread on the dough first before the alfredo sauce. 

I guess there's a couple of different ways to make Alfredo Sauce, but these seem pretty simple.  I really like simple recipes and don't believe cooking should be complicated. 

[sear]

2nd recipe
4 T of butter
1/4 tsp salt
4 T flour
1 cup of cream or milk
3/4 cup of Parmesan or Romano cheese grated

Melt butter over medium heat.  Add other ingredients and stir until thickened.  Set aside and let cool.

For those who have done these or something similar, is the flour necessary?  Does the cheese and garlic cover up the taste of the flour.  I imagine it's there as a thickening agent. 

Another similar recipe also called for a garlic butter sauce to be spread on the dough first before the alfredo sauce. 

I guess there's a couple of different ways to make Alfredo Sauce, but these seem pretty simple.  I really like simple recipes and don't believe cooking should be complicated. 

this doesn't sound quite proper.
you should make a roux first (this is what gets rid of the flour taste), which is melting butter then adding equal part of flour. whisk till combined and let it cook for a couple minutes till a light brown and you start to smell a nutty aroma.
sometimes its cooked for a long time, but the longer you cook it the less it will thicken whatever your adding it too.
once milk is add it is called a bechamel sauce

[scott123]

Chau,  I don't know where you got that second recipe from, but it's got epic fail written all over it. 4T of flour, 1 C. of cream and 3/4 C. parm will give you porridge.

As far as the first recipe goes... people can and  do put anything they want in alfredo, but, imo, garlic is a little out of place.  Canned alfredo, as has been discussed, is an abomination, but frozen alfredo (Michelina's, Stouffer's) is one of those few times where big business has gotten their hands on a beloved Italian American food and not ruined it. Also, because so many people grew up on frozen alfredo, it has come, to an extent, to define the sauce within America's borders- and frozen alfredo contains no garlic. I can live without the frozen overcooked pasta, but, sauce wise, I have found most frozen versions to be pretty close in quality to the restaurant alfredos I've eaten.  In fact, in some ways, the frozen version is superior/more flavorful because it's starch thickened rather than cream thickened.  Cream is notorious for coating the palette and masking flavors.

You may want to get into starch/flour thickened alfredo down the line, but to start, I'd go the easier half and half route.

I looked around a bit, and this looks like a winner.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/rachael-ray/fettuccine-allalfredo-con-prosciutto-di-parma-recipe/index.html

The only thing I'd modify is the nutmeg.  Nutmeg is a critical component, imo, but the amount here is insane.  For this much sauce you want about half a smidgeon nutmeg (1/64 t.).

I frequently add cooked bacon to my alfredo and I can tell you, it's magnificent, so, I have no doubt the prosciutto will be equally as wonderful, but for now, to experience classic alfredo in all it's glory, just omit the prosciutto.

Oh, and omit the salt, the parm will have loads of salt.  These chain smoking celebrity chefs with scorched, flavor receptor damaged tongues just don't know when to stop adding salt.

Summing up,

1 (12 ounce) package egg fettuccine
2 tablespoons butter
1 to 1 1/4 cups half-and-half
1 cup (3 healthy handfuls) grated Parmigiano-Reggiano
1/64 t. nutmeg
Lots of coarse ground pepper (you should see plenty of black specs).

should work.  Oh, and, the first time you make this, weigh the parm and write it down so you can tweak based on weight rather than volume. Measuring grated parm by volume is a joke.

[RoadPizza]

As far as cream cheese on a white pizza is concerned, Giorgio Giove, a member of the US Pizza Team and hailing from Brother's Pizza in Staten Island, won 2nd place in the World's Best Tasting Pizza Competition (held in Italy IIRC) using a cream cheese based sauce for his pizza.  The recipe can be found at: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/throwdown-with-bobby-flay/award-winning-pizza-recipe/index.html.

I use cream cheese in my white pizzas.  It came from a need to find a substitute for ricotta, which is difficult to source in this part of the world.  You can find pictures of them in the other white pizza thread.  How do they look to you?  And guess what, they are our best selling items on the menu.

Don't discount things without bothering to try them.  Scientific speculation is just that: speculation.  Actual science and breakthroughs come from results in trying out new ideas.

[scott123]

First of all... Bobby Flay? Really? Bobby Flay? 

Second, it's almost impossible to curdle cream, so, other than liquefying the clumps of cream cheese, the recipe you posted has none of the curdling propensity that I talked about.

Lastly, I make cream cheese sauces all the time. I just make sure to add the cream cheese with the sauce off the heat and to never boil it/put on pizza. Also, because I like cream cheese and have wanted to use it in other applications/high heat settings, I've spent countless hours trying to develop a cream cheese/milk based sauce that wouldn't curdle when boiled, and I couldn't do it. To succeed would defy the laws of chemistry.  Milk + acid + heat = Curdling.

As I said before, some people don't mind curdled cheese sauce.  A lot of baked macaroni recipes end up curdled and people swear by them.  Maybe my sensitivity to curdling puts me in the minority here, but I despise the loss of creaminess that occurs when a milk based sauce separates.

[RoadPizza]

First of all... Bobby Flay? Really? Bobby Flay? 

Second, it's almost impossible to curdle cream, so, other than liquefying the clumps of cream cheese, the recipe you posted has none of the curdling propensity that I talked about.

Lastly, I make cream cheese sauces all the time. I just make sure to add the cream cheese with the sauce off the heat and to never boil it/put in pizza. Also, because I like cream cheese and have wanted to use it in other applications/high heat settings, I've spent countless hours trying to develop a cream cheese/milk based sauce that wouldn't curdle when boiled, and I couldn't do it. To succeed would defy the laws of chemistry.  Milk + acid + heat = Curdling.

As I said before, some people don't mind curdled cheese sauce.  A lot of baked macaroni recipes end up curdled and people swear by them.  Maybe my sensitivity to curdling puts me in the minority here, but I despise the loss of creaminess that occurs when a milk based sauce separates.

You don't have to cook sauce for pizzas.  You just have to mix it well.

[scott123]

You don't have to cook sauce for pizzas.  You just have to mix it well.

Unless you're working with par baked or thick crusts or a substantial amount of toppings, any sauce you put on a pizza will come to a boil as it's baked.

[RoadPizza]

Unless you're working with par baked or thick crusts or a substantial amount of toppings, any sauce you put on a pizza will come to a boil as it's baked.

But it still works as a sauce and is viable and the mozzarella will melt right into it.

[Jackie Tran]

Yes the sauce with the flour looked skeptical to me as well.  Sear, thanks for explaining bachamel sauce.  First time I've ever heard of it was on here and always wondered what it is exactly. 

I made a white pizza tonight and 2 different whites sauces to try.  1/2 was a sauce made with ricotta and a little parm and the other 1/2 was the first recipe I posted using 1/2 and 1/2. 

Both were great but my wife like the alfredo sauce a bit better.  I also topped the pie with shrimp which made it special for me. 
I would definitely do either of the sauces again. 

JT