Author Topic: Attempting my first white pizza  (Read 4771 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2010, 08:29:00 AM »
Paul, did you make your white pizza?  What sauce did you end up using and did you like it?

Scott, thanks for the recipe.

You may want to get into starch/flour thickened alfredo down the line, but to start, I'd go the easier half and half route.
Scott, it's probably not the same, but isn't this similar to the 2nd recipe I found that calls for 4T flour.  That seems like a lot so maybe 1-2T.  It seems like the author's intention is to thicken the sauce with flour here.

Also, what does the smidgen of nutmeg do.  I'm thinking it's not there for taste or is it?

Well I remade white pizza b/c i had left over Alfredo sauce and ricotta cheese.   The first batch of alfredo sauce was a bit too salty from the parm and a touch of salt and the ricotta cheese is bland.  So I decided to add more garlic, OO, half and half, and ricotta to the leftover Alfredo sauce and it was really good.

I think next time I'll leave out the extra OO as you can see it pooling on the top.  But I really like a lot of garlic.  I also cut back on the mozz  cheese on top and found it to be an improvement as well.

Tran


brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
Great looking white pizza Tran!! :chef: ;D

The following pictures are 1day old doughs:

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2010, 01:21:00 PM »
Another 1 day dough

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2010, 01:21:29 PM »
Nice looking pie yourself Paul.  BUT i have one question for you.  What is that I see on the cheese?  Is that corn?  Did you just top that pizza with corn?  :o  Looks tasty though.  Did you do that in the home oven? Oh yeah, do you notice a difference in the dough texture between using the fancy mixer and mixing by hand?

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2010, 01:32:18 PM »
More 6 day pictures:

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2010, 01:34:28 PM »
one more 6 day old dough picture:

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2010, 05:31:43 PM »
Any comments (good or bad) are more than welcome.
Thanks guys,

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2010, 05:40:57 PM »
Any comments (good or bad) are more than welcome.
Thanks guys,

Paul

Paul what is the hydration ratio? How much did the doughballs weigh and what size are the pies? Temp of bake and how long?  Was it baked on a stone or pan.  Did you use any broiler methods or parbaking crust? 

How was the crumb?  Moist? dry? leathery? details please.

The crust color is a little dark but overall looks good.  Cheese doesn't looked overcook to me.  Looks like you got a decent oven spring for the home oven. 

Most importantly what did you think about them?  Were you happy overall?  What would you do different next time?

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2010, 06:01:54 PM »
Tran, 63% water,330gm and they were about 12inches and baked on a stone for 7ish minutes @ 220 C, no broiler on the 6day dough. Crust was my best yet, crunch and chew.

The crust is a tad too dark I agree, the flavour and texture were really good though. I think I would just cook for 30seconds-1minute less next time.

I was pleased with the oven spring for such a rubbish home oven.

Thanks for the comments and I highly recommend the white sauce mate.

Paul
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:50:03 AM by brayshaw »

Offline scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2010, 04:37:35 AM »
Paul, I'm kind of proud of my ability to look at a pizza and understand what's going on, but, when I look at your pizza's, honestly, I'm a little mystified  :)  I'm not passing judgment, everything looks delicious- I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

The bacon pie is the darkest/most evenly colored crust that I've ever seen with a 7 minute bake time.  It's also the most opaque/strongest gluten I've ever seen after a 6 day cold ferment. 6 day cold ferments, regardless of the yeast quantity, invariably produce a very unevenly colored translucent knobby/toothy crust.  Never opaque and evenly tan.

Are you sure about the temperature? 220 C = 428 F. Is that as high as your oven will go? What kind of stone are you using?

Are you adding much sugar to the dough? Oil?

Are you oiling the skin before you bake it? Salting it? How heavy is the oil coating on the proofing dough ball?  Are you using semolina or cornmeal to form the skin?

You mentioned not using the broiler? What heat source is browning the top of the pizza?

Does the flour you're using list ingredients?

Sorry about all the questions.  It's just that that kind of even browning on both a same day and a six day dough with a relatively short baking time seems a bit strange to me.


brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2010, 05:26:30 AM »
Scott, my stone is just a half inch regular stone from a kitchen shop, flour just says 100% Canadian wheat. I use very small amounts of oil to grease the bottom of the proofing box, never oil the top of the dough ball. My oven has a max temp of 220C so I heated the stone for 90mins then blasted it under the broiler for a few mins until the temp was 600F then I put it back into the oven and slid the pizza on for a 7minute bake.
I don't use any sugar in my dough at all.

I use semolina to dust and stretch out my pizzas.

Hope that helps,

Cheers
Paul
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 06:11:15 AM by brayshaw »

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2010, 05:59:06 AM »
Nice looking pie yourself Paul.  BUT i have one question for you.  What is that I see on the cheese?  Is that corn?  Did you just top that pizza with corn?  :o  Looks tasty though.  Did you do that in the home oven? Oh yeah, do you notice a difference in the dough texture between using the fancy mixer and mixing by hand?

Tran, the main difference is just how incredibly smooth and elastic it is when mixed by my new spiral mixer compared to my old KA.  All those pictures are from my home electric oven.

Have a great weekend buddy.

Paul

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2010, 04:24:58 PM »
I have just made a fresh batch in my spiral mixer so I am going to see what the differences are between a 1, 2, 4, 6 and 8 day fermented dough.

Wish me luck eating that much pizza! Lol

Scott, did my info help you?

Cheers,

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2010, 05:36:47 PM »
awesome looking forward to the results.  Paul, if you wish, you can start a new thread.  Should be interesting.  I would also keep as many variables the same as possible and maybe consider just making cheese pizzas.   I would also scale down the pies and make smaller pizzas so you don't have a ton of pizza laying around but I'll leave that up to you.   Good luck.

Offline scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2010, 01:04:43 AM »
Scott, did my info help you?

Actually Paul, now I'm even more confused  ;D

If that flour is, as the package says, '100% Canadian Wheat' and there's no malted barley in it, then the deep even color you're getting on both the 1 day and 6 day crusts makes no sense whatsoever. As you go up in baking time, the crust browns more evenly (and gets a little drier), but 7 minutes really shouldn't be long enough to get that kind of color.

As you make more pizzas in the upcoming weeks, I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this, but, in the meantime, I definitely think some investigative work on the flour is in order. Obtaining specs on the flour (ingredients, protein percent with margin of error, falling value, ash content, absorption value, aging info, etc), is, imo, a critical component in a commercial pizza making enterprise. Working with a flour without specs in a commercial setting is like working with an oven without temperature marks on the dial.

I'm curious, is your home oven a convection oven?

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2010, 04:28:02 AM »
Actually Paul, now I'm even more confused  ;D

If that flour is, as the package says, '100% Canadian Wheat' and there's no malted barley in it, then the deep even color you're getting on both the 1 day and 6 day crusts makes no sense whatsoever. As you go up in baking time, the crust browns more evenly (and gets a little drier), but 7 minutes really shouldn't be long enough to get that kind of color.

As you make more pizzas in the upcoming weeks, I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this, but, in the meantime, I definitely think some investigative work on the flour is in order. Obtaining specs on the flour (ingredients, protein percent with margin of error, falling value, ash content, absorption value, aging info, etc), is, imo, a critical component in a commercial pizza making enterprise. Working with a flour without specs in a commercial setting is like working with an oven without temperature marks on the dial.

I'm curious, is your home oven a convection oven?

I have just emailed the flour company and will post back here their reply about the spec of the flour.
You are correct about my home oven, it is a convection oven.

Thanks Scott,

Paul

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2010, 04:48:57 AM »
They got back to me straight away. The protein % surprised me :o

CARRS SPECIFICATION FOR
MAPLE LEAF


Issue Date                                                        10-7-09                                                           
Version                                                             3
Specification Reference                                  0230


Product Description                                         Canadian Wheat Flour.                   
                                                                       
Appearance                                                      Fine white powder     
Ingredient Declaration                                     WHEAT FLOUR     
Additives                                                          Statutory nutrients only     


  Analytical Values                                      Method                                         Specification
             Assay
* Moisture Content %                             5g @ 130 C for 90 mins                     14.0 +/- 0.5       
* Colour Grade                                          Kent-Jones                                         Max 0.5   
* Protein %                                               NIR, as is moisture basis                   12.6 - 14.0 
* Hagberg Falling Number secs                   7g                                                        Min 280
* Starch Damage F.U                                    Farrand                                               30 +/- 3
* Water Absorption %                             600 B.U Line                                      62.0 +/- 2.0


* CLAS approved methods
Note: Water absorption is an analytical measurement used to monitor consistency and may not relate to full scale bakery production.

Microbiological-independent analyst-general reference only

TVC                                                    PCA @ 30oC / 72 hrs                      Max 1 x 105 / g
Coliform                                                VRBGA @ 37oC / 24 hrs                   Max 100 / g
E. Coli                                                     Chromogenic (TB x Agar)                  Max 10 / g
Samonella                                                                 25g                                         Absent
Yeasts                                                 RBCA Choramphenol                       Max 1 x 102 / g
Moulds                                                    Agar Base                                     Max 1 x 103 / g

HACCP                                                             
Final Redress Screen Size                        700 Micron.       
Metal Detection       * Bags                        1.8 mm Fe, 2.0 Non Fe, 2.0 mm Stainless.                 
Traceability                      Each bag has unique number.  Bulk flour - vehicle registration.     
                                                                         
BRC Accredited to Grade A for the production, storage and packing of flour and wheat products

Offline scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2010, 09:02:39 AM »
Why are you surprised Paul? I told you it was acting like a 13% protein flour :P

The last time this came up, I got a little bent out of shape that you were getting what was supposed to be a 14% flour that was acting a lot like 12.6.  I would definitely keep shopping around (like I said, talk to bakeries), but I guess a 13ish flour isn't the end of the world.  You're going to want to give it a little more kneading than a 14, but you really can't push it too hard or it will start failing on you. 

I did  little research and came up with a very informative article on farinograph testing (open the PDF so you can blow up the graphs):

http://wheatflourbook.org/Main.aspx?p=33

According to this, under 'standardized' mixing conditions (whatever that is), weak flours peak in consistency around the 2 minute mark, while 'strong gluten' flour reaches it's maximum potential in around 10 minutes. Now, this is in the context of a mix, proof and bake scenario. With the additional kneading equivalent of a cold ferment, these numbers will shrink considerably.  12.6 is hardly what I'd call weak, but, at the same time, it will be less forgiving than 14.

This article basically confirms what my experience has shown me, namely, that, although, in theory, one can take a relatively weak flour and knead it longer to make it act more like a higher gluten flour, the potential for overkneading is so great that you really have to know what you're doing in order to pull it off. With 14% flour, you get a much larger target to hit when it comes to underkneading/overkneading.

Assuming you're going with a multi day cold ferment, with a mixer as powerful as yours, I'd say no more than about 5 minutes on the highest setting. You'll figure out the required kneading as you open the dough into skins. It will always be smooth due to the cold fermentation, but the elasticity and tackiness will vary. With an elevated hydration, minimal kneading and a quick bake time, you should have good extensibility/not too much elasticity, not too much tackiness and a tender open crumb in the finished product.

The biggest potential obstacle you're going to encounter is having one bag of flour being in the 12.6 realm while the next is 14.  That's going to create some extra work as you'll need to do some testing with each bag to see how well it absorbs water. I don't think you need to make a whole batch of dough with each new bag, but I might measure a few grams in a cup add a set amount of water and see how easily it comes together. You could end up with a butterfly effect of sorts- a small shift in protein in a new bag might have large changes after cold fermentation, but I think if you're careful and aware of the issues, you might be able to work around it.

The convection part of your oven actually clears a lot up.  Convection encourages even browning. I've seem some commercial pizza ovens that were convection, but I think most are not.  You might want to play around with baking a few pizzas at home without the convection feature so you're prepared for the different results your commercial (most likely) non convection oven will give you.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2010, 10:32:23 AM »
Paul,

In Europe, the protein content of flours is usually recited on a dry basis. The protein content of the Carr flour is recited on a wet basis, as is done in the U.S. This means that there is no need to convert from a dry basis to a wet basis to get comparable numbers. As a Canadian flour producer, Carr is apparently using the U.S. method. So, what scott123 has said about the protein is correct. As you look at different flours, you might want to note which basis is used for the protein (and ash also). You can read a bit more on this topic in this document: http://web.archive.org/web/20060507221142/http://kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf.

Also, with a falling number of 280 (min), the Carr flour has to be malted or otherwise treated to increase the amylase enzyme activity. See, for example, the description of falling number in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#F.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 01:26:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2010, 12:12:51 PM »
Great observations Peter. I looked at the 280 briefly and thought 'that's a little low,' but since I only saw 'wheat flour' in the ingredients, I took that at face value.  Perhaps, in Canada, flour doesn't have to be broken down into it's constituent parts on labeling (could malted barley be a 'statutory nutrient'). Or, and I think this is far more unlikely, they're selling inferior flour that was allowed to germinate a bit before harvesting.

Paul, I think it's time for another email  :) You have the right to know if there's malted barley in this flour or not.


 

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