Author Topic: Attempting my first white pizza  (Read 5543 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2010, 10:21:33 AM »
I also want to add that the 6 day dough seemed to brown a lot easier than my usual 1 day dough in my home oven. Anyone else found that?

Paul,

I have made cold fermented doughs without any added sugar and they have lasted for up to 23 days with good final crust coloration and, for some of the intermediate doughs, a decidedly sweet crust flavor. The enzymes that are responsible for converting damaged starch to natural sugars for use by the yeast and for crust coloration purposes slow down during the period of cold fermentation, along with the yeast, so it can take some time to produce the sugars. That might show up in the form of less coloration after only one day of cold fermentation. Over several days of cold fermentation, and especially if a small amount of yeast is used in the dough formulation, there may be an excess of natural sugars produced beyond the needs of the yeast itself. That excess sugar production can be used to improve the color of the crust.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2010, 10:54:17 AM »
Chau, as far as I'm concerned, it's almost impossible to make a bad alfredo.  Just make sure to buy the good parm from TJs.  Not the stravecchio or the 'faux' parm, Grana Padano- Get the Parmigiano Reggiano. The king of cheeses :).

thx Scott. Shucks, I just bought the grana padano not long ago but once I'm done with that I'll give the others a try. What I really like is the asiago cheese sauce from Macaroni Grill so I may even try to make that.

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2010, 11:20:57 AM »
thx Scott. Shucks, I just bought the grana padano not long ago but once I'm done with that I'll give the others a try. What I really like is the asiago cheese sauce from Macaroni Grill so I may even try to make that.

I'm not saying grana padano is bad, per say (DiFara's puts it on their pies), but, for alfredo sauce, you really want the extra umph from real parm.

An asiago cheese sauce is definitely going to involve starch.  For the Macaroni grill, it's most likely a modified starch of some kind. For the home chef, it's roux.

scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2010, 11:36:03 AM »
scott123,

I know bechamel is a good white sauce to use on pizzas.  I didnít have any problems with the garlic white sauce with cream cheese with added milk. In my opinion the key is to just melt the mixture of milk and cream cheese over low heat. I am sure you donít want to cook it.  I know of some Italian pizza shops in our area that use basically the same ingredients for their white pizzas and as far as I know, they arenít having any problems with the cream cheese.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has tried cream cheese when making a white sauce for a pizza.

Norma

Norma, as I said before, cream cheese sauce can be successful if heated gently, but the recipe you posted talks about bubbling (boiling), and, even if you treat the sauce with kid gloves and only heat it gently, it will boil when the pizza bakes. Cream cheese contains acid and acid curdles milk when heated.  Sometimes if the milk is really fresh, it's difficult to curdle, and, as I said, cream cheese is manufactured with some stabilizing/anti-curdling ingredients, but, if you bring it to a boil on pizza, the chances of ending up with curds and whey are high.

And, as far as pizzerias using cream cheese... maybe it's different in PA, but in the NY area, I've never heard of cream cheese going on a white pizza. It's always ricotta and mozzarella.


Offline norma427

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2010, 01:29:46 PM »
scott123,

When I made the recipe, I knew not to boil the cream cheese.  I didnít even look at how it told to make the recipe.  I just added the ingredients as I thought they should be added.  Maybe I should have looked over the instructions for the recipe, before I posted it.  I make all kind of recipes and donít usually look at instructions, if I think I know what to do.  I had tried ricotta on a pizza before and didnít like the flavor as much as the cream cheese.  I even made fresh ricotta from mozzarella I had made.  It still didnít have the flavor of the cream cheese.  When that recipe was made you couldnít tell there was cream cheese in the mixture. 

I know cream cheese with other ingredients sounds unusual on a pizza, but if you have time someday, give it a try and let me know what you think.

I don't cook any of my sauces except for the one that uses grape tomatoes that are slowly roasted, before the other ingredients are added.

I know we arenít in NY city in our area.  I have a daughter that lives in Brooklyn, NY and have tried many NY pizzas at regular pizza places.  I am always open to new ideas and trying different ways to experiment.

Sorry I didnít give more detailed instructions.   :-[

Norma
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 02:09:29 PM by norma427 »

Offline sear

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2010, 02:07:16 PM »
ive never heard of the cream cheese for white sauce either..
i've been making mine with ricotta, white wine, thyme, garlic. i do heat the mixture for a bit and its very good
next time i make some i will try adding some cream cheese into the mix  :chef:

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2010, 03:30:33 PM »
I just did a quick google search for Alfredo sauce and took a look at about 4 different recipes.  A couple were very similar and probably came from the same original recipe.   Here's 2 I found that look promising.  I think I can just substitute asiago cheese for the parmesan or use a combination for a different flavor. 

1/4 cup butter melted
3 cloves of garlic
1 cup of parmesan cheese grated
1/2 cup heavy cream
Salt and Pepper to taste

Melt butter over med heat and saute garlic for about a min or two.  Don't brown the garlic.  Add the other ingredients and stir until combined.  Remove from heat and allow to cool.

2nd recipe
4 T of butter
1/4 tsp salt
4 T flour
1 cup of cream or milk
3/4 cup of Parmesan or Romano cheese grated

Melt butter over medium heat.  Add other ingredients and stir until thickened.  Set aside and let cool.

For those who have done these or something similar, is the flour necessary?  Does the cheese and garlic cover up the taste of the flour.  I imagine it's there as a thickening agent. 

Another similar recipe also called for a garlic butter sauce to be spread on the dough first before the alfredo sauce. 

I guess there's a couple of different ways to make Alfredo Sauce, but these seem pretty simple.  I really like simple recipes and don't believe cooking should be complicated. 

Offline sear

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2010, 05:20:21 PM »

2nd recipe
4 T of butter
1/4 tsp salt
4 T flour
1 cup of cream or milk
3/4 cup of Parmesan or Romano cheese grated

Melt butter over medium heat.  Add other ingredients and stir until thickened.  Set aside and let cool.

For those who have done these or something similar, is the flour necessary?  Does the cheese and garlic cover up the taste of the flour.  I imagine it's there as a thickening agent. 

Another similar recipe also called for a garlic butter sauce to be spread on the dough first before the alfredo sauce. 

I guess there's a couple of different ways to make Alfredo Sauce, but these seem pretty simple.  I really like simple recipes and don't believe cooking should be complicated. 

this doesn't sound quite proper.
you should make a roux first (this is what gets rid of the flour taste), which is melting butter then adding equal part of flour. whisk till combined and let it cook for a couple minutes till a light brown and you start to smell a nutty aroma.
sometimes its cooked for a long time, but the longer you cook it the less it will thicken whatever your adding it too.
once milk is add it is called a bechamel sauce
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 05:40:45 PM by sear »

scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2010, 08:27:25 PM »
Chau,  I don't know where you got that second recipe from, but it's got epic fail written all over it. 4T of flour, 1 C. of cream and 3/4 C. parm will give you porridge.

As far as the first recipe goes... people can and  do put anything they want in alfredo, but, imo, garlic is a little out of place.  Canned alfredo, as has been discussed, is an abomination, but frozen alfredo (Michelina's, Stouffer's) is one of those few times where big business has gotten their hands on a beloved Italian American food and not ruined it. Also, because so many people grew up on frozen alfredo, it has come, to an extent, to define the sauce within America's borders- and frozen alfredo contains no garlic. I can live without the frozen overcooked pasta, but, sauce wise, I have found most frozen versions to be pretty close in quality to the restaurant alfredos I've eaten.  In fact, in some ways, the frozen version is superior/more flavorful because it's starch thickened rather than cream thickened.  Cream is notorious for coating the palette and masking flavors.

You may want to get into starch/flour thickened alfredo down the line, but to start, I'd go the easier half and half route.

I looked around a bit, and this looks like a winner.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/rachael-ray/fettuccine-allalfredo-con-prosciutto-di-parma-recipe/index.html

The only thing I'd modify is the nutmeg.  Nutmeg is a critical component, imo, but the amount here is insane.  For this much sauce you want about half a smidgeon nutmeg (1/64 t.).

I frequently add cooked bacon to my alfredo and I can tell you, it's magnificent, so, I have no doubt the prosciutto will be equally as wonderful, but for now, to experience classic alfredo in all it's glory, just omit the prosciutto.

Oh, and omit the salt, the parm will have loads of salt.  These chain smoking celebrity chefs with scorched, flavor receptor damaged tongues just don't know when to stop adding salt.

Summing up,

1 (12 ounce) package egg fettuccine
2 tablespoons butter
1 to 1 1/4 cups half-and-half
1 cup (3 healthy handfuls) grated Parmigiano-Reggiano
1/64 t. nutmeg
Lots of coarse ground pepper (you should see plenty of black specs).

should work.  Oh, and, the first time you make this, weigh the parm and write it down so you can tweak based on weight rather than volume. Measuring grated parm by volume is a joke.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 08:42:19 PM by scott123 »


Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2010, 08:48:15 PM »
As far as cream cheese on a white pizza is concerned, Giorgio Giove, a member of the US Pizza Team and hailing from Brother's Pizza in Staten Island, won 2nd place in the World's Best Tasting Pizza Competition (held in Italy IIRC) using a cream cheese based sauce for his pizza.  The recipe can be found at: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/throwdown-with-bobby-flay/award-winning-pizza-recipe/index.html.

I use cream cheese in my white pizzas.  It came from a need to find a substitute for ricotta, which is difficult to source in this part of the world.  You can find pictures of them in the other white pizza thread.  How do they look to you?  And guess what, they are our best selling items on the menu.

Don't discount things without bothering to try them.  Scientific speculation is just that: speculation.  Actual science and breakthroughs come from results in trying out new ideas.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 08:52:32 PM by RoadPizza »

scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2010, 09:13:15 PM »
First of all... Bobby Flay? Really? Bobby Flay?  ;D

Second, it's almost impossible to curdle cream, so, other than liquefying the clumps of cream cheese, the recipe you posted has none of the curdling propensity that I talked about.

Lastly, I make cream cheese sauces all the time. I just make sure to add the cream cheese with the sauce off the heat and to never boil it/put on pizza. Also, because I like cream cheese and have wanted to use it in other applications/high heat settings, I've spent countless hours trying to develop a cream cheese/milk based sauce that wouldn't curdle when boiled, and I couldn't do it. To succeed would defy the laws of chemistry.  Milk + acid + heat = Curdling.

As I said before, some people don't mind curdled cheese sauce.  A lot of baked macaroni recipes end up curdled and people swear by them.  Maybe my sensitivity to curdling puts me in the minority here, but I despise the loss of creaminess that occurs when a milk based sauce separates.

Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2010, 09:16:56 PM »
First of all... Bobby Flay? Really? Bobby Flay?  ;D

Second, it's almost impossible to curdle cream, so, other than liquefying the clumps of cream cheese, the recipe you posted has none of the curdling propensity that I talked about.

Lastly, I make cream cheese sauces all the time. I just make sure to add the cream cheese with the sauce off the heat and to never boil it/put in pizza. Also, because I like cream cheese and have wanted to use it in other applications/high heat settings, I've spent countless hours trying to develop a cream cheese/milk based sauce that wouldn't curdle when boiled, and I couldn't do it. To succeed would defy the laws of chemistry.  Milk + acid + heat = Curdling.

As I said before, some people don't mind curdled cheese sauce.  A lot of baked macaroni recipes end up curdled and people swear by them.  Maybe my sensitivity to curdling puts me in the minority here, but I despise the loss of creaminess that occurs when a milk based sauce separates.

You don't have to cook sauce for pizzas.  You just have to mix it well.

scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2010, 09:26:59 PM »
You don't have to cook sauce for pizzas.  You just have to mix it well.

Unless you're working with par baked or thick crusts or a substantial amount of toppings, any sauce you put on a pizza will come to a boil as it's baked.

Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2010, 09:33:47 PM »
Unless you're working with par baked or thick crusts or a substantial amount of toppings, any sauce you put on a pizza will come to a boil as it's baked.

But it still works as a sauce and is viable and the mozzarella will melt right into it.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2010, 11:21:52 PM »
Yes the sauce with the flour looked skeptical to me as well.  Sear, thanks for explaining bachamel sauce.  First time I've ever heard of it was on here and always wondered what it is exactly. 

I made a white pizza tonight and 2 different whites sauces to try.  1/2 was a sauce made with ricotta and a little parm and the other 1/2 was the first recipe I posted using 1/2 and 1/2. 

Both were great but my wife like the alfredo sauce a bit better.  I also topped the pie with shrimp which made it special for me. 
I would definitely do either of the sauces again. 

JT
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 11:23:25 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2010, 08:29:00 AM »
Paul, did you make your white pizza?  What sauce did you end up using and did you like it?

Scott, thanks for the recipe.

You may want to get into starch/flour thickened alfredo down the line, but to start, I'd go the easier half and half route.
Scott, it's probably not the same, but isn't this similar to the 2nd recipe I found that calls for 4T flour.  That seems like a lot so maybe 1-2T.  It seems like the author's intention is to thicken the sauce with flour here.

Also, what does the smidgen of nutmeg do.  I'm thinking it's not there for taste or is it?

Well I remade white pizza b/c i had left over Alfredo sauce and ricotta cheese.   The first batch of alfredo sauce was a bit too salty from the parm and a touch of salt and the ricotta cheese is bland.  So I decided to add more garlic, OO, half and half, and ricotta to the leftover Alfredo sauce and it was really good.

I think next time I'll leave out the extra OO as you can see it pooling on the top.  But I really like a lot of garlic.  I also cut back on the mozz  cheese on top and found it to be an improvement as well.

Tran

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
Great looking white pizza Tran!! :chef: ;D

The following pictures are 1day old doughs:


brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2010, 01:21:00 PM »
Another 1 day dough

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2010, 01:21:29 PM »
Nice looking pie yourself Paul.  BUT i have one question for you.  What is that I see on the cheese?  Is that corn?  Did you just top that pizza with corn?  :o  Looks tasty though.  Did you do that in the home oven? Oh yeah, do you notice a difference in the dough texture between using the fancy mixer and mixing by hand?

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2010, 01:32:18 PM »
More 6 day pictures:

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2010, 01:34:28 PM »
one more 6 day old dough picture:

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2010, 05:31:43 PM »
Any comments (good or bad) are more than welcome.
Thanks guys,

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2010, 05:40:57 PM »
Any comments (good or bad) are more than welcome.
Thanks guys,

Paul

Paul what is the hydration ratio? How much did the doughballs weigh and what size are the pies? Temp of bake and how long?  Was it baked on a stone or pan.  Did you use any broiler methods or parbaking crust? 

How was the crumb?  Moist? dry? leathery? details please.

The crust color is a little dark but overall looks good.  Cheese doesn't looked overcook to me.  Looks like you got a decent oven spring for the home oven. 

Most importantly what did you think about them?  Were you happy overall?  What would you do different next time?

brayshaw

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2010, 06:01:54 PM »
Tran, 63% water,330gm and they were about 12inches and baked on a stone for 7ish minutes @ 220 C, no broiler on the 6day dough. Crust was my best yet, crunch and chew.

The crust is a tad too dark I agree, the flavour and texture were really good though. I think I would just cook for 30seconds-1minute less next time.

I was pleased with the oven spring for such a rubbish home oven.

Thanks for the comments and I highly recommend the white sauce mate.

Paul
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:50:03 AM by brayshaw »

scott123

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Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2010, 04:37:35 AM »
Paul, I'm kind of proud of my ability to look at a pizza and understand what's going on, but, when I look at your pizza's, honestly, I'm a little mystified  :)  I'm not passing judgment, everything looks delicious- I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

The bacon pie is the darkest/most evenly colored crust that I've ever seen with a 7 minute bake time.  It's also the most opaque/strongest gluten I've ever seen after a 6 day cold ferment. 6 day cold ferments, regardless of the yeast quantity, invariably produce a very unevenly colored translucent knobby/toothy crust.  Never opaque and evenly tan.

Are you sure about the temperature? 220 C = 428 F. Is that as high as your oven will go? What kind of stone are you using?

Are you adding much sugar to the dough? Oil?

Are you oiling the skin before you bake it? Salting it? How heavy is the oil coating on the proofing dough ball?  Are you using semolina or cornmeal to form the skin?

You mentioned not using the broiler? What heat source is browning the top of the pizza?

Does the flour you're using list ingredients?

Sorry about all the questions.  It's just that that kind of even browning on both a same day and a six day dough with a relatively short baking time seems a bit strange to me.


 

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