Author Topic: Attempting my first white pizza  (Read 5638 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2010, 05:26:30 AM »
Scott, my stone is just a half inch regular stone from a kitchen shop, flour just says 100% Canadian wheat. I use very small amounts of oil to grease the bottom of the proofing box, never oil the top of the dough ball. My oven has a max temp of 220C so I heated the stone for 90mins then blasted it under the broiler for a few mins until the temp was 600F then I put it back into the oven and slid the pizza on for a 7minute bake.
I don't use any sugar in my dough at all.

I use semolina to dust and stretch out my pizzas.

Hope that helps,

Cheers
Paul
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 06:11:15 AM by brayshaw »


brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2010, 05:59:06 AM »
Nice looking pie yourself Paul.  BUT i have one question for you.  What is that I see on the cheese?  Is that corn?  Did you just top that pizza with corn?  :o  Looks tasty though.  Did you do that in the home oven? Oh yeah, do you notice a difference in the dough texture between using the fancy mixer and mixing by hand?

Tran, the main difference is just how incredibly smooth and elastic it is when mixed by my new spiral mixer compared to my old KA.  All those pictures are from my home electric oven.

Have a great weekend buddy.

Paul

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2010, 04:24:58 PM »
I have just made a fresh batch in my spiral mixer so I am going to see what the differences are between a 1, 2, 4, 6 and 8 day fermented dough.

Wish me luck eating that much pizza! Lol

Scott, did my info help you?

Cheers,

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7230
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2010, 05:36:47 PM »
awesome looking forward to the results.  Paul, if you wish, you can start a new thread.  Should be interesting.  I would also keep as many variables the same as possible and maybe consider just making cheese pizzas.   I would also scale down the pies and make smaller pizzas so you don't have a ton of pizza laying around but I'll leave that up to you.   Good luck.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2010, 01:04:43 AM »
Scott, did my info help you?

Actually Paul, now I'm even more confused  ;D

If that flour is, as the package says, '100% Canadian Wheat' and there's no malted barley in it, then the deep even color you're getting on both the 1 day and 6 day crusts makes no sense whatsoever. As you go up in baking time, the crust browns more evenly (and gets a little drier), but 7 minutes really shouldn't be long enough to get that kind of color.

As you make more pizzas in the upcoming weeks, I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this, but, in the meantime, I definitely think some investigative work on the flour is in order. Obtaining specs on the flour (ingredients, protein percent with margin of error, falling value, ash content, absorption value, aging info, etc), is, imo, a critical component in a commercial pizza making enterprise. Working with a flour without specs in a commercial setting is like working with an oven without temperature marks on the dial.

I'm curious, is your home oven a convection oven?

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2010, 04:28:02 AM »
Actually Paul, now I'm even more confused  ;D

If that flour is, as the package says, '100% Canadian Wheat' and there's no malted barley in it, then the deep even color you're getting on both the 1 day and 6 day crusts makes no sense whatsoever. As you go up in baking time, the crust browns more evenly (and gets a little drier), but 7 minutes really shouldn't be long enough to get that kind of color.

As you make more pizzas in the upcoming weeks, I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this, but, in the meantime, I definitely think some investigative work on the flour is in order. Obtaining specs on the flour (ingredients, protein percent with margin of error, falling value, ash content, absorption value, aging info, etc), is, imo, a critical component in a commercial pizza making enterprise. Working with a flour without specs in a commercial setting is like working with an oven without temperature marks on the dial.

I'm curious, is your home oven a convection oven?

I have just emailed the flour company and will post back here their reply about the spec of the flour.
You are correct about my home oven, it is a convection oven.

Thanks Scott,

Paul

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2010, 04:48:57 AM »
They got back to me straight away. The protein % surprised me :o

CARRS SPECIFICATION FOR
MAPLE LEAF


Issue Date                                                        10-7-09                                                           
Version                                                             3
Specification Reference                                  0230


Product Description                                         Canadian Wheat Flour.                   
                                                                       
Appearance                                                      Fine white powder     
Ingredient Declaration                                     WHEAT FLOUR     
Additives                                                          Statutory nutrients only     


  Analytical Values                                      Method                                         Specification
             Assay
* Moisture Content %                             5g @ 130 C for 90 mins                     14.0 +/- 0.5       
* Colour Grade                                          Kent-Jones                                         Max 0.5   
* Protein %                                               NIR, as is moisture basis                   12.6 - 14.0 
* Hagberg Falling Number secs                   7g                                                        Min 280
* Starch Damage F.U                                    Farrand                                               30 +/- 3
* Water Absorption %                             600 B.U Line                                      62.0 +/- 2.0


* CLAS approved methods
Note: Water absorption is an analytical measurement used to monitor consistency and may not relate to full scale bakery production.

Microbiological-independent analyst-general reference only

TVC                                                    PCA @ 30oC / 72 hrs                      Max 1 x 105 / g
Coliform                                                VRBGA @ 37oC / 24 hrs                   Max 100 / g
E. Coli                                                     Chromogenic (TB x Agar)                  Max 10 / g
Samonella                                                                 25g                                         Absent
Yeasts                                                 RBCA Choramphenol                       Max 1 x 102 / g
Moulds                                                    Agar Base                                     Max 1 x 103 / g

HACCP                                                             
Final Redress Screen Size                        700 Micron.       
Metal Detection       * Bags                        1.8 mm Fe, 2.0 Non Fe, 2.0 mm Stainless.                 
Traceability                      Each bag has unique number.  Bulk flour - vehicle registration.     
                                                                         
BRC Accredited to Grade A for the production, storage and packing of flour and wheat products

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2010, 09:02:39 AM »
Why are you surprised Paul? I told you it was acting like a 13% protein flour :P

The last time this came up, I got a little bent out of shape that you were getting what was supposed to be a 14% flour that was acting a lot like 12.6.  I would definitely keep shopping around (like I said, talk to bakeries), but I guess a 13ish flour isn't the end of the world.  You're going to want to give it a little more kneading than a 14, but you really can't push it too hard or it will start failing on you. 

I did  little research and came up with a very informative article on farinograph testing (open the PDF so you can blow up the graphs):

http://wheatflourbook.org/Main.aspx?p=33

According to this, under 'standardized' mixing conditions (whatever that is), weak flours peak in consistency around the 2 minute mark, while 'strong gluten' flour reaches it's maximum potential in around 10 minutes. Now, this is in the context of a mix, proof and bake scenario. With the additional kneading equivalent of a cold ferment, these numbers will shrink considerably.  12.6 is hardly what I'd call weak, but, at the same time, it will be less forgiving than 14.

This article basically confirms what my experience has shown me, namely, that, although, in theory, one can take a relatively weak flour and knead it longer to make it act more like a higher gluten flour, the potential for overkneading is so great that you really have to know what you're doing in order to pull it off. With 14% flour, you get a much larger target to hit when it comes to underkneading/overkneading.

Assuming you're going with a multi day cold ferment, with a mixer as powerful as yours, I'd say no more than about 5 minutes on the highest setting. You'll figure out the required kneading as you open the dough into skins. It will always be smooth due to the cold fermentation, but the elasticity and tackiness will vary. With an elevated hydration, minimal kneading and a quick bake time, you should have good extensibility/not too much elasticity, not too much tackiness and a tender open crumb in the finished product.

The biggest potential obstacle you're going to encounter is having one bag of flour being in the 12.6 realm while the next is 14.  That's going to create some extra work as you'll need to do some testing with each bag to see how well it absorbs water. I don't think you need to make a whole batch of dough with each new bag, but I might measure a few grams in a cup add a set amount of water and see how easily it comes together. You could end up with a butterfly effect of sorts- a small shift in protein in a new bag might have large changes after cold fermentation, but I think if you're careful and aware of the issues, you might be able to work around it.

The convection part of your oven actually clears a lot up.  Convection encourages even browning. I've seem some commercial pizza ovens that were convection, but I think most are not.  You might want to play around with baking a few pizzas at home without the convection feature so you're prepared for the different results your commercial (most likely) non convection oven will give you.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23589
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2010, 10:32:23 AM »
Paul,

In Europe, the protein content of flours is usually recited on a dry basis. The protein content of the Carr flour is recited on a wet basis, as is done in the U.S. This means that there is no need to convert from a dry basis to a wet basis to get comparable numbers. As a Canadian flour producer, Carr is apparently using the U.S. method. So, what scott123 has said about the protein is correct. As you look at different flours, you might want to note which basis is used for the protein (and ash also). You can read a bit more on this topic in this document: http://web.archive.org/web/20060507221142/http://kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf.

Also, with a falling number of 280 (min), the Carr flour has to be malted or otherwise treated to increase the amylase enzyme activity. See, for example, the description of falling number in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#F.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 01:26:55 PM by Pete-zza »


scott123

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2010, 12:12:51 PM »
Great observations Peter. I looked at the 280 briefly and thought 'that's a little low,' but since I only saw 'wheat flour' in the ingredients, I took that at face value.  Perhaps, in Canada, flour doesn't have to be broken down into it's constituent parts on labeling (could malted barley be a 'statutory nutrient'). Or, and I think this is far more unlikely, they're selling inferior flour that was allowed to germinate a bit before harvesting.

Paul, I think it's time for another email  :) You have the right to know if there's malted barley in this flour or not.

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2010, 12:40:49 PM »
Wow, your knowledge astounds me guys! thank you!
http://www.marriagesmillers.co.uk/our_flour/mb-white.html
That is a link to an alternative supplier that I found today, I spoke to them about my requirements and they are sending me 2x16kg sacks to try tomorrow, 1 is their 'Manitoba' and the other is their 'uppermost'. I will ask for spec sheets too.
What do you guys think?

Thank you,

Paul

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2010, 01:08:11 PM »
By the lorry?  :o

The verbage for the Manitoba- 'exceptionally strong,' ' Canadian spring wheat,' certainly sounds promising. I also took a look at the specs they had on the home line and those looked respectable, although I find it a little strange that they list malt for some flours, but not others. Are Canadian and British bakeries using unmalted flour?

I'm hopeful, but, until we see the specs AND a batch of dough being made, we're not out of the woods yet.  I recall Terry (tdeane) having issues with an organic Canadian miller misrepresenting their flour as having higher protein/a higher absorption value than it actually had.  I hope it's not these guys.

How's the price? This feels a little more expensive than the Carr's.

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2010, 01:31:21 PM »
Thanks for that Scott, I think the flour will arrive tomorrow so I will mix a batch up and film it for you.
The price is around the 10 mark per 16kilo sack (he sent me those 2 sacks today free of charge though)

Thanks for your help.

Paul

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2010, 05:47:32 AM »
Wow, your knowledge astounds me guys! thank you!
http://www.marriagesmillers.co.uk/our_flour/mb-white.html
That is a link to an alternative supplier that I found today, I spoke to them about my requirements and they are sending me 2x16kg sacks to try tomorrow, 1 is their 'Manitoba' and the other is their 'uppermost'. I will ask for spec sheets too.
What do you guys think?

Thank you,

Paul

I have heard back from Marriages millers and this was the email I got from them:



Paul,
 
Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Manitoba Flour.  Unfortunately I am not authorised to supply a product specification to anyone who is not a current customer.  I have spoken with our Flour Sales Manager, Ian Whymark, and I believe that you should receive the flour today. One of our Territory managers, Dave McKenzie, will then be in touch with you.
 
Kind Regards
 
Cathy

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2010, 06:19:11 AM »
Okay Paul, I think Cathy needs to clarify something here.  This is what I'd ask her:

Dear Cathy,

When you say you aren't authorized to supply product specifications to prospective customers, are you saying that someone else in your company (such as Dave McKenzie) IS authorized? Or is not supplying specifications to non customers company wide policy?

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2010, 06:36:32 AM »
I have just phoned them and spoke to Ian Whymark, he said it is a company wide policy to not share that info with non-customers. Scott I called you my 'technical guy' ;D
Ian said to me that I should mix up a batch of dough and get my 'technical guy' to look at it mixing and if it performs well and tastes as good as I hope it will then I should become a customer and they will gladly send me a spec sheet.

Paul

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2010, 08:56:58 AM »
Paul, that's kind of you to call me your 'technical guy,' but, in all fairness, I'm one of your technical guys :)

As far as Marriages Millers not providing spec sheets to prospective customers... that is absolutely ridiculous.  It would be like a car dealership not telling prospective buyers the gas mileage on the models they're selling.  It's just horrible business.

I'm well aware that you've been looking for flour suppliers and are quickly running out of options, but, if you did have another company you could deal with, I would tell you to tell MM where to go.  They don't deserves anyone's business.

There's a good chance you'll be doing business with these folks, so you can't push the envelope too far, but, if I were you, I would send them a link to this discussion.* They should be made aware that the public is being made aware of this policy and that it reflects incredibly poorly on their company.

*Checking with Peter and/or Steve first to make sure it's alright.


brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2010, 09:04:40 AM »
I have a team of technical guys and girls here ;D and that is what makes this forum the incredible forum that it is, so many knowledgeable and helpful people. :pizza:

Ok, I will let them know about this thread if it's ok with Peter/Steve.

I was very surprised also that they won't let a potential customer see the spec of one of their products.

Thanks again to you and everyone that provides all the help I could hope for.

Paul

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23589
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2010, 09:51:17 AM »
Paul,

I don't see any problem with referring a supplier or potential supplier to the forum. I have done that on a few occasions, including a company with whom members were having problems with service and deliveries. I wanted to point out to the company how bad news can spread fast on the Internet and that it was in their best interest to resolve service and customer related issues.

Peter

brayshaw

  • Guest
Re: Attempting my first white pizza
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2010, 09:56:32 AM »
Paul,

I don't see any problem with referring a supplier or potential supplier to the forum. I have done that on a few occasions, including a company with whom members were having problems with service and deliveries. I wanted to point out to the company how bad news can spread fast on the Internet and that it was in their best interest to resolve service and customer related issues.

Peter

Thanks Peter, lets see if we get a responce...