Author Topic: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard  (Read 2862 times)

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Offline Madmax

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No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« on: March 29, 2005, 03:05:55 PM »
Hey Ya'll,

First of all, thank you to all posters on this board.  You've saved me hours of trial and error in making pies.  I'm a long time reader, and first time poster.  I've taken some great ideas from this board and I'm experimenting with my own "twist".  I made a dough last night and will toss it into 2 12" pizza's tonight.  I thought I would post my latest experimental recipe and am looking forward to any replies.

2 7/8 C of KA Bread flour (can't get high gluten)
3 1/8 C warm water 105 degree
1 pkg ADY
3/4 t Mediterranian Sea Salt

I proofed the yeast in 1/4 C of water for 15 minutes, then added it to 1 C of flour, mixed it in Kitchen Aid for a couple of minutes, then added remaining water, flour, and then the salt.  Mixed for 15 minutes, removed it from the bowl, rubbed it with EVOO, and into a large tupperware container to retard in the fridge over night.  After 8 hours it had doubled.  I will take it after 18-20 hours, let it warm for 3 hours, form it into 2 balls, and let it rest for an additional hour.  My preheated stone at 500, is 12".  I hand toss the dough, top it with Polly O Part skim mozzarella, fresh chopped garlic, crappy pepperoni, and then spoon/dollup sauce on top.  I won't have any pics, but I'll let ya'll know how it turns out.

Oh yeah, the sauce:
Splach of EVOO
2 cloves garlic
Anchovy
28 oz of Puree Tomato
dried basil, oregano, red pepper flakes to taste
 


Offline canadianbacon

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2005, 03:09:48 PM »
Hi MadMax  ;D

And welcome to the group !, nice to have you post and join in on the fun !  :)

You are on the right track with the dough, I'm sure it's going to be a winner.  Let us know how it turned
out and how good it was, I always love reading that part of the posts.

Mark
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2005, 03:48:57 PM »
MMM...anchovey's in the sauce..now thats one I never tried.....sounds great!!! They melt and leave a hint of their flavor....I'm sure its great!! I'm going to try it next time

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2005, 04:26:12 PM »
Madmax,

Welcome to the forum.

I was wondering whether you can confirm the amounts of flour and water your recipe calls for. I think there may be a typo somewhere (most likely the amount of water) since roughly 3 cups (by volume) of KA bread flour weighs around 13.5-14 oz. and 3 1/8 c. water (by volume) weighs around 26 oz. That would be a soupy mixture.

Peter

Offline Madmax

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2005, 04:44:04 PM »
Yes, Peter, I'm looking for +100% hydration!  Us Southerners like our pizza crispy  ;)

Just kidding, good catch.  It should have been "1" 1/8 C water.

The anchovy in the sauce is a nod to my Aunt who is from Sardinia, Italy.  Very simple cooking technique, but it adds quite a depth of flavor...not necessarily traditional, but very good.  I sweat the garlic and anchovy in the EVOO, then add remainder of ingredients.  Simmer for  no longer than 30 min.  The chopped garlic on the pie adds another level of flavor.

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2005, 07:22:08 AM »
Some recipes on this site stated they were making dough and adding vanilla malt to their dough recipes....I was wondering if you ever tried this.. I don't think Petezza does this in his recipes. I think all this tinkering with the flavor will result in quite good results. I have never added malt vanilla to my doughs but I might be missing out....

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2005, 07:42:02 AM »
MTPIZZA,

I have not done much with using the Carnation malted milk product but that is only because I haven't had a chance to experiment with it to any great degree. But there are several of our members who have tried the Carnation product and appear to have gotten good results. Pftaylor is our resident expert on the subject, with years of experience using the Carnation product.

Peter

Offline Madmax

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2005, 08:02:53 AM »
The dough was great to work with, however when I formed into 2 balls and let it rest  for an hour I forgot to wet the towel I covered them with.  They formed a slight skin.  The resulting crust was excellent, crisp texture, with light and airy pockets.  A nice crunch, great foldability, and leathery.  It didn't darken all that much though.  It was mostly the color as the uncooked dough.  What would cause this?  Is it because I added no sugar or honey or perhaps no oil?

Any advice will be appreciated.

Madmax

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2005, 08:58:13 AM »
Madmax,

With the KA bread flour, you should have gotten pretty good browning. So, I think your problem may be that you used too much yeast. One package of ADY is 2 1/4 t. In your recipe, that's around 2.2% of the weight of flour. Retarded NY style doughs, like the Lehmann dough, can use as little as 1/4-1/2 t. ADY, or around 0.25-0.375% of the weight of flour. I suspect the high amount of yeast you used, along with the warm water, caused the dough to ferment too quickly and to use up a good part of the natural sugars extracted from the starch in the flour. Consequently, after 18-20 hours plus the 3 hour warmup and 1 hour final rest, there most likely was too little sugar left in the dough at that point to provide decent browning.

You could add sugar or honey or some other sweetener to the dough to the outset, but unless you really loved the results you achieved I think the better solution is to use less yeast and rely on the enzymatic activity in the flour and yeast to extract the natural sugars from the starch in the flour.  Olive oil may also help with browning, but you may need a lot of it to promote noticeable browning. From my perspective, the value of oil is more in improving the extensibility of the dough. A couple of teaspoons in your recipe wouldn't hurt, however, and is commonly used in NY style doughs (like the Lehmann dough).

You might also want to use cooler water for the portion of the water that is not used for proofing the ADY. The ADY should be proofed in a small amount of warm water, as you did. Using the cooler water for the bulk of the water called for in the recipe will serve to slow down the fermentation process. Using the amount of yeast you did was doing exactly the opposite.

BTW, I have assumed in the above analysis that your oven is working properly and was producing enough heat to properly bake and brown the crust of your pizza.

Peter

Offline Madmax

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2005, 09:11:24 AM »
Thanks for the advice Peter.  I'll adjust the recipe accordingly, and give it another go.  I usually add a T of sugar or a wee bit of honey, and a splash of oil, which results in a nice golden brown crust.  The oven and stone were preheated for about an hour, it's never failed me before.  Again, thanks for the recommendation.


Offline Nathan

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2005, 09:46:52 AM »
Never ever NEVER use sugar .  If you want true New York style pizza do not use sugar or oil...
"Pizza with pineapples?  That's a cake."

Offline DKM

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2005, 10:28:03 AM »
Made the dough last night we will see how it goes.

DKM
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Offline Madmax

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2005, 10:48:51 AM »
Great DKM...let me know how it turns out, and your suggestions for modification or improvement.

Madmax

Offline DKM

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2005, 09:23:31 PM »
It turned out really good, I'll expand on it tomorrow.

DKM
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Offline DKM

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2005, 02:56:34 PM »
My only changes were I used IDY and used 80o water.

Turned out real good.  I didn't get the bubble I was hoping for.  I might try the trick of mixing it a few minutes, letting it rest 5 minutes or so then letting it mix a couple more. I think I will play with it some on my grill as well.

Get good fire going and see how it works.

DKM
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline Madmax

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2005, 03:12:59 PM »
Thanks for info DKM.  How did the color turn out?  How hot was your oven?  Only 500 degree here.  Also, did you try the sauce?

Making more tonight only with 0.75% yeast, cooler water, and in the fridge  until March Madness begins.

Madmax

Offline DKM

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Re: No Sugar, No Oil, 24 hr retard
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2005, 04:47:51 PM »
Not sure on the temp.  I heated the oven on broil with a stone on the rack second from the top,  Color was blochy light/dark brown.  I used my own sauce (6-in-1 blended with sauted onion & garlic, and fresh basil)

Keep us up to date.
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