NY Style and crust thickness...I can't stretch my dough enough

[zole2112]

First I'd like to thank everybody on this site for all the the excellent information and all of the time you spend helping others work toward achieving the ultimate pizza.

I spent about 6 months a couple of years ago studying this site before I finally attempted my first NY style pizza, I'm more of a reader than a poster but I'm to the point where if I'm going to improve my crust further I need to ask some specific questions.

If you've ever eaten at Pietro's in Philadelphia, this is exactly my crust, it's delicious. What I can't do is get my pizza to stretch as thin as I want, it springs back and i start to get holes in the dough. I've been using Essen1's recipe for my dough, reply #78 at pizzamaking forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74171.html#msg74171 (can't post links, sorry)

I've been using KA bread flour for my dough. My wife used to make pizzas at Jays in Carlsbad, CA years ago. Jay made the dough himself and never let her watch so she is a good judge of working with the dough but has no idea how he made the dough.

Thank you your any tips you can provide.

[scott123]

Here's the entire link to the recipe:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74171.html#msg74171

Zole2112,

1. KABF is renowned for creating elastic doughs. If you want to match Pietro's, if possible, use the flour they're using.  I can guarantee you that they aren't using KABF.

2. As you knead dough it gets more elastic.  Cold fermentation is a kneading equivalent.  Working with dough after it's rested or after it's been refrigerated develops gluten at a far faster rate than dough that is just prepared.

This page here explains that, for high gluten flour without cold fermentation or resting, the longest you want to knead is 10 minutes:

http://wheatflourbook.org/Main.aspx?p=33

Once you introduce cold fermentation and slightly less than high gluten flours, that number drops dramatically. If you've got the KABF and don't want to waste it, that's fine, but I wouldn't mix/knead it a second past 3 minutes.  If it's tacky and hard to work with after those 3 minutes (another notorious KABF shortcoming), then you'll need to decrease the water. You'll also want to remove the post refrigeration ball.  Just make the dough, all at once, mix/knead for 3 minutes, ball, then refrigerate.

[zole2112]

Thank you for the information, time to order some different flour. The data they got with the Farinagraph is interesting. Do you have any recommendations for flour for NY style crust? Caputo 00 maybe? I've never worked with it before. I am making crust now, using Pete-zza's recipe using the Poolish. I've used this recipe many times also but I haven't been able to stretch that crust as thin as I want either. I'm trying the shortened kneading time for today and will order some Caputo to try.

Actually my crust comes out almost exactly like Pietro's now, but I want it thinner.

[scott123]

Pietro's is coal oven, making it Neo-NY, which is different than NY style.  It's like a 3-4 minute bake time with a good amount of char, both above and below. Some coal places use Caputo/Caputo bread flour blend, so I wouldn't avoid Caputo, but, for now if you're happy with your crust but are just seeking better extensibility, I wouldn't go the Caputo route quite yet.

Here's a place in Philadelphia where you can get good NY flour:

http://www.chaesfood.com/

Here's the flours they carry:

http://www.chaesfood.com/pizza_others.html

All Trumps is sort of the 'classic' NY style flour, but the others listed are respectable as well.  I don't have the specs in front me for the other flours- just make sure you get 14% protein (All Trumps is 14). If you have an unbromated option (you probably won't), that might be worth getting. Bromate gives you a little more extensibility, but it isn't critical. Any of these flours will perform better than KABF, bromated or not.

[Essen1]

Here's the entire link to the recipe:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74171.html#msg74171

Zole2112,

1. KABF is renowned for creating elastic doughs. If you want to match Pietro's, if possible, use the flour they're using.  I can guarantee you that they aren't using KABF.

2. As you knead dough it gets more elastic.  Cold fermentation is a kneading equivalent.  Working with dough after it's rested or after it's been refrigerated develops gluten at a far faster rate than dough that is just prepared.

This page here explains that, for high gluten flour without cold fermentation or resting, the longest you want to knead is 10 minutes:

http://wheatflourbook.org/Main.aspx?p=33

Once you introduce cold fermentation and slightly less than high gluten flours, that number drops dramatically. If you've got the KABF and don't want to waste it, that's fine, but I wouldn't mix/knead it a second past 3 minutes.  If it's tacky and hard to work with after those 3 minutes (another notorious KABF shortcoming), then you'll need to decrease the water. You'll also want to remove the post refrigeration ball.  Just make the dough, all at once, mix/knead for 3 minutes, ball, then refrigerate.

I agree with Scott123 even though I have never been to Pietro's.

I'm sure they are using different flour, perhaps KASL, Kyrol or some other high-gluten flour. Maybe even Pendelton's Power flour. Or a customary blend.

What I used in Reply #78 was a blend of two flours and you can read I wasn't too happy about it. Caputo needs heat. I knew that all along but still though it might be manageable. The pies still turned out okay but not was I really looking for. Crust-wise/texture-wise it was great albeit the sweetness. Too much sugar.

In regards to the tearing you're experiencing...it's all in the way you handle the dough after mixing. And, of course, the mixing itself has a lot to do with it.

My suggestion for that formula is to just take out the Caputo and go all KABF. And lower the sugar amount down to maybe 1.5%

Hope that helps...