Author Topic: overnight risig dough on room temp vs overnight rising in refrigerator!  (Read 9488 times)

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Offline paris

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Hi everybody,
I am new here, but old pizza home maker. I adore this forum and finally decide to register. In very intro sorry for my broken English.
Well, I want to know what do you think which dough is better, room temperature rising or refrigerator rising? What`s the difference in your experience?

When I make overnight rising (24 hours) dough at room temperature I follow next steps (I won`t talk about measures):

start at 9 pm
mix water and salt
mix yeast and flour
mix with mixer 10 % of flour in salted water, wait for 20 minutes
mix slowly the rest of flour, add oil
coated dough with oil
rising for about 18 hours
punch down dough day after and slowly re-knead
rising for about 4 hours
turn dough off the bowl
spread, shape
prepare for baking

Do I miss something?

Rising the dough at refrigerator:
start at 7 pm
mix water and salt
mix yeast and flour
mix with mixer 10 % of flour in salted water, wait for 20 minutes
mix slowly the rest of flour
coated dough with oil
rising for the first time (I think people call it here bulk fermentation) for about 1, 1/2 hour
re-knead dough(I don`t know is this necessary, but I do that)
put in refrigerator for about 18 hours
get it out of the fridge and let it rest for 1 hour at room temperature
ball dough and let it rise for about 2-3 hours
prepare for baking

Is it correct? I am wandering is there any mistake about re-knead in process?

Thanks a lot,

regards,

Paris




scott123

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Paris, welcome to the forum.

You never want to re-knead dough after it's been proofed. At best you'll have a tough crust, at worst, you'll have damaged/torn gluten which will give you a stringy gloppy mess.

And, although I started off doing punch downs with pizza, I eventually came to the conclusion that they aren't necessary. Punch downs help redistribute nutrients for yeast in bread, but in pizza dough, they mostly just give you a less tender crust with very little gain in oven spring.  Oven spring for pizza is less about yeast activity during the bake and more about intense heat, small pockets of air, water and the steam that's created.

If you can modify your yeast quantity so that a 24 hour room temperature dough ends up  with exactly the same volume as a 24 hour refrigerated dough, then I would think they'd be fairly comparable. Colder temps may favor enzyme activity (I'm not sure), but for that time frame, I'd think they'd be pretty similar.  Should you decide to extend the clock and go for 48 or even 72 hours, that removes room temperature fermentation completely from the equation.

Offline paris

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tnx Scott123, so you think re-knead as the way I describe is not necessery? Should I avoid it at all?

scott123

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Re-kneading is not necessary. Avoid it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Well, I want to know what do you think which dough is better, room temperature rising or refrigerator rising? What`s the difference in your experience?

Those are good questions but I don't think that there are right or wrong answers. There are some people who prefer room temperature fermented doughs and there are those who prefer using cold fermentation. There are also some who use a combination of room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation. Success is largely a matter of selecting a dough formulation that is adaptable to either or both forms of fermentation. In all cases, yeast quantity and temperatures are critical.

From a purely technical standpoint, yeast and enzymes, and possibly bacteria, perform more optimally at room temperatures than at refrigerator temperatures. According to member pizzanapoletana (Marco), who specializes in Neapolitan style doughs and pizzas, the "ideal" temperature for fermentation purposes (for ambient temperature fermentation) is 18-20 degrees C (see Reply 87 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg10972.html#msg10972). In most places, it is unlikely that one would have that narrow range of room temperatures available throughout the entire year. Consequently, for best performance on a consistent basis, one would need some way of controlling the fermentation temperature, such as an MR-138 or equivalent unit. I have had fairly extensive experience making long, room temperature fermented doughs at both high and low room temperatures, and I can tell you that it is a very challenging exercise to be able to successfully make pizza dough when room temperatures are very high or very low. You can read about my efforts along these lines at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. If you made a 24-hour room temperature dough, I suspect that you experienced many of the phenomena I experienced with my long, room-temperature fermented doughs. You may also have experienced the conditions that might have made it necessary for you to re-knead the dough because of the damage done to the gluten structure by enzymes during the long, room-temperature fermentation. With long, room-temperature fermented doughs, it isn't always possible to avoid punch-downs and re-kneading the dough.

If you are interested, you can read more about the effects of temperature on yeast fermentation at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/dough_fermentation_and_temperature.htm.

I have also made doughs that were cold fermented for up to 23 days. My preferred duration was around 6-15 days. A good part of the following thread is devoted to how to make long, cold-fermented doughs: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. I never found a need to punch down or re-knead the long, cold fermented doughs.

As between the long, room-temperature fermented doughs and the long cold fermented doughs, I would say that I preferred the results I got with the long, cold-fermented doughs. I especially liked the crust flavors, color, sweetness, blistering and texture of the long, cold fermented doughs.

Had I chosen to control the fermentation temperatures of my doughs to optimize my results, which is something I could have done since I have an MR-138 unit, I might have been able to achieve comparable results to what I achieved with the cold fermented doughs, and in a much shorter time period. In my experiments, my long, room temperature doughs fermented at temperatures that were just too high or too low for optimum performance.

Peter


Offline paris

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tnx guys. In my experience with room temp ferm I have softier pizza and with cold pizza is much crispier.
I thought pizza dough has to be twice kneaded. Some pizzaiol told me that. He said it is very important for the dough quality to re-knead the dough.Peter I am surprised cause you`ve talked in one your thread about benefit in room temperature fermentation and punching down and re-kneading after 18 hours, so I wanted to leave cold fermentation. Maybe making the balls at the end of rising is some kind of re-kneading.
But, if you say it`s not necessary, I think this is forum for artificer pizza makers, I wont do it again. It is pretty easier.

scott123

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Paris, the gluten in dough is formed two ways- chemically (the passing of time) or mechanically (movement).  The moment water and flour are combined, the chemical formation process is initiated. It's like a train leaving the station- there's nothing you can do to slow it down or stop it. For instance, you can just dump flour into water and let it sit for a while without any mixing and gluten will have been created. Flour, being a dry particle, takes time to fully absorb water (hydrate), so this chemical process can take quite a few hours, even as long as overnight.

This chemical gluten formation is the reason why some bread recipes put rests between combining the ingredients and kneading.  It's basically a way of letting time do the kneading for you, so you don't have to put as much labor into physically kneading the dough.

Mechanical gluten formation is quite simple.  When dough is agitated, protein molecules will brush up against each other and form gluten. Kneading is the most obvious and most aggressive means of mechanical formation, but there are other mechanical methods through which gluten is formed.  Balling, folding, punching down, opening- any time you work with dough, gluten will form.  Even if you're not working with the dough, there's still mechanical formation occurring. As the yeast generates CO2 and the dough rises, the act of rising itself causes protein molecule brushing.

Every dough, based upon it's protein content and characteristics, has the potential to create a set amount of gluten.  Once that gluten is generated, either mechanically or chemically, that's all you've got.  Further manipulation only damages it. Damage can reveal itself in a lack of extensibility/toughness or, if pushed far enough, complete failure/tearing.

Bottom line- post-rising (or even mid-rise) kneading (or balling or folding) is gluten abuse.  At least for pizza doughs with traditional levels of hydration.  As you go wetter, gluten seems to form more slowly so very wet doughs can handle more agitation than their drier counterparts. For up to 70% doughs, though, kneading dough after it's risen is a travesty.  It would be akin to taking a perfectly roasted, succulent, moist cut of beef and putting it back in the oven for 5 more hours.   You're taking something at it's absolute peak of readiness and pushing it completely past what it's able to do.

Overnight fermentation, be it cold or room temp, involves a tremendous amount of chemical and mechanical gluten formation. This is why you want to do minimal kneading, no rests and immediate balling on overnight fermented doughs. It's also a valid reason to re-think punch downs.

High gluten flour is pretty tolerant to abuse, so when you see recipes that perform lots of unnecessary and complex dough manipulations, it's not like they produce complete failures, but they will produce inferior results.

Respect your gluten  ;D
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 12:35:31 PM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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paris,

I saw that scott123 was posting just as I finished my post, but I decided to post mine anyway even at the risk of some overlap.

You didn't indicate what type and amount of flour you used and what type and amount of yeast you used and what room temperature you used to ferment your room-temperature dough, but if the dough overfermented there are certain enzymes in the flour that attack the gluten structure of the dough and cause the water to be released from its chemical bond into the dough. As a result, the dough can be on the wet and slack side. Usually, if the dough at this point has overfermented, you may have no choice but to reknead and reball the dough, or do a few stretch and folds, and let the dough rest for a few more hours to allow the gluten structure to relax again so that you can form a skin. If there is still a lot of moisture in the dough you can get a finished crust that is on the soft side rather than crispy, especially if you bake the pizza in a standard home oven at normal oven temperatures.

Doughs like this remind me of doughs such as the Jim Lahey no-knead dough or Jeffrey Steingarten's "Perfect Dough" (there are also others) that have very high hydration. If you follow the instructions for making these doughs, you are likely to end up with thin skins that are wet and prone to stick to your peel. That also means that you won't be able to use a lot of sauce, cheese or toppings, or you may have to dress the pizzas on parchment paper, and you will have to bake in a very hot oven. In my experience in my standard, unmodified home oven, I usually end up with soft crusted pizzas. Moreover, the leftover slices do not reheat well. They are usually soft and limp. That is why you should monitor the fermentation of your dough so that you don't let the dough go to far. You might look for something less than a doubling. Or else, you may want to invest in a temperature controlled unit to control the fermentation temperature once you determine what temperature will work best for your particular dough formulation.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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paris,

I forgot to mention earlier that it is not a fair comparison to compare two doughs that are fermented for roughly the same time, one at room temperature and the other in the refrigerator. Actually, in your case, the room temperature fermented dough had 22 hours of fermentation, and, if my math is correct, the cold fermented dough had 22.5-23.5 hours of fermentation. In this vein, I thought that you might be interested in the comparison that pizzanapoletana (Marco) gave at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1261.msg11336/topicseen.html#msg11336.

Peter

Offline paris

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Thanks a lot beaus. Wordless!
I think Peter it would be maybe reasonable to write here names of my flour and yeast because I am a stranger and those names won`t mean nothing to you.
I took measures from your thread "How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough". A propos your last post where you instructed me to take a look on loooong rising dough I don`t like it`s taste. It has dry and rough surface with a small flecks, so I ll be fun of max one day rising dough (it sounds like hit  ;D).
Can you me refer on some thread here where I can find mixing and preparing process from A-Z?
Shiny salute,
p.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Paris, I just read your post and question and the responses.  Just wanted to say that both Peter and Scot are experts with seemingly endless pizza knowledge and experience. Neither have lead me astray so I would stick with their advice. 

When I first read your method, I figured you probably meant to say that you ball or reball the dough rather than reknead but either way both have the same result - tougher gluten structure.  Too much (re)balling /rekneading/stretch and folds can lead to a dough that is impossible to open without tearing the dough. 

I have seen the effects of this first hand. However I disagree that it produces an inferior product. It generally does but not always.  As Peter stated, the damaging effects of gluten molestation can be mitigated by using a higher hydration dough but a wet dough can create many challenges in it's own right. 

My best pies so far have been made with high hydration doughs (70%+) and also require a few stretch and folds/reballing (what you called rekneading) mid fermentation. BUT I also use a minimal kneading technique which affords me the extra reballing step. Even then it is very minimal stretch and folds or reballing. With my unique approach I can make a better pizza than when I make a lower hydration dough. This has been through the result of much experimentation and failures.  So you have to experiment and find that balance between hydration levels, kneading (which can include (re)balling and stretch & folds), fermentation, and baking to get your ideal pizza. It's not that one method is wrong or right but what you do does have consequences on the end result.  You have to manipulate those variables to make the pizza you like.  Bottom line though (as Peter and Scott already stated) too much kneading during anytime of the dough making process can lead to too much gluten developement. This leads to a dry and leathery crust at best and at worse a dough that won't open.  Overkneading vs. Underkneading is a very delicate balance but it is better to underknead than overknead.  

It's a tough scenario to fairly compare a cold fermented dough vs a room temp rise. There are members that prefer one method over the other but in general, I think most agree that a cold fermented dough gives a more complex flavor and texture.  Paris I too have found that a cold fermented dough seems to give a drier crumb and/or surface texture.  I need to do more trials in this area before completely abandoning cold fermentation.

Peter your post has given me yet more insight into my own pizza perfecting quest.  To avoid a soft exterior skin on the rim, I'll experiment with lowering my hydration ratio and increasing the oil % a bit.  Thanks for that. 

JT
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 08:30:55 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline paris

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Thank you Jackie. I am aware that I am talking with masters here, otherwise I wouldn`t have registration on foreign forum. My hidratation % in the dough is moreover higher because our flour is very dry. You are right about re-kneading. I don`t re-knead like a maniac. I can say that it is gently balling the dough.
As far as I talk about making the dough and thinking about my experiences in making pizza I vote for room temperature fermentation.

Offline Jackie Tran

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I do as well but I need much more practice to learn about different styles and aspects of pizza making.  I did not see a hydration ratio that you are using posted. 

Also do you have some pictures of your pizzas to share with the forum?  Thanks

JT

Offline StrayBullet

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As far as I talk about making the dough and thinking about my experiences in making pizza I vote for room temperature fermentation.

What kind of room temps are we talking?  When I was in Paris last September (7th Ar.) the apartment we rented did have a portable heating/cooling unit but I know many apartments do not, just curious!  Fantastic city by the way, can't wait to get back!!!  Je parle un petit puh France :)  (-2sp)

Offline paris

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24 degree.

Offline paris

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I am not in Paris, just like that name (like Greek`s lover boy).

Offline FriZer

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Re: overnight risig dough on room temp vs overnight rising in refrigerator!
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2010, 08:24:57 AM »
              I really do not get what is  overnight rising in refrigerator means? I will be glad if you will post the what this thing really means. I really want to know about it and my curiosity is getting high.

Offline steel_baker

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Re: overnight risig dough on room temp vs overnight rising in refrigerator!
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2010, 09:03:09 PM »
I do an overnight rise on my Sicilian dough every time I make it now. The overall flavor & texture of the finished product is simply better. I mix up my dough in a Bosch Universal Plus mixer 67% hydration, pulse it until it forms a ball, let it rest for 5 minutes, then knead for 8 minutes. I then the put the dough in an oiled zip loc bag and place it in the refrigerator overnight.

I initially started doing this because it seemed to be a way to make pizza baking day easier by prep'ing the dough ahead of time. Turned out for me that it resulted in a superior tasting crust so I do it that way all the time now.

steel_baker
steel_baker  :chef:

Offline gabaghool

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Re: overnight risig dough on room temp vs overnight rising in refrigerator!
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2010, 09:39:40 AM »
A sloooooooooow rise in a retarder of some type is ALWAYS better.  You want to use the wettest, oldest, most risen dough you can get your hands on for the best pizza. It may not be the best looking pizza, but the dough will be magnificent.

Make your dough with cold water.  Portion it and roll it.  Pop it in the frig for a few or three days.  Take it out and let it rise.  I mean RIIIIIIIIIIISE, till its almost "blown".  Then take it , pound it and stretch it.  Now, because the dough has risen, almost over risen, it will be a bit difficult to work with, but the results are really incredible.

You see, slow rising brings out a great flavor in the dough.  It also gives the nice bubbles in the crust.

I have read a thousand ways of making dough light, airy and tasty, many involving complicated tempatures, ingredients, processes.  For a home guy, I'm sure this works fine.  But in restaurants, complicated is a no no.

Cold dough.  Long retarted rest for 48 hours and rising this old dough in a warm place till you almost have THE BLOB.  Again, its MORE difficult to work with (make a round pie), but the results are all worth it.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: overnight risig dough on room temp vs overnight rising in refrigerator!
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2010, 09:55:32 AM »
Those are good questions but I don't think that there are right or wrong answers. There are some people who prefer room temperature fermented doughs and there are those who prefer using cold fermentation. There are also some who use a combination of room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation. Success is largely a matter of selecting a dough formulation that is adaptable to either or both forms of fermentation. In all cases, yeast quantity and temperatures are critical.

From a purely technical standpoint, yeast and enzymes, and possibly bacteria, perform more optimally at room temperatures than at refrigerator temperatures. According to member pizzanapoletana (Marco), who specializes in Neapolitan style doughs and pizzas, the "ideal" temperature for fermentation purposes (for ambient temperature fermentation) is 18-20 degrees C (see Reply 87 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg10972.html#msg10972). In most places, it is unlikely that one would have that narrow range of room temperatures available throughout the entire year. Consequently, for best performance on a consistent basis, one would need some way of controlling the fermentation temperature, such as an MR-138 or equivalent unit. I have had fairly extensive experience making long, room temperature fermented doughs at both high and low room temperatures, and I can tell you that it is a very challenging exercise to be able to successfully make pizza dough when room temperatures are very high or very low. You can read about my efforts along these lines at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. If you made a 24-hour room temperature dough, I suspect that you experienced many of the phenomena I experienced with my long, room-temperature fermented doughs. You may also have experienced the conditions that might have made it necessary for you to re-knead the dough because of the damage done to the gluten structure by enzymes during the long, room-temperature fermentation. With long, room-temperature fermented doughs, it isn't always possible to avoid punch-downs and re-kneading the dough.

If you are interested, you can read more about the effects of temperature on yeast fermentation at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/dough_fermentation_and_temperature.htm.

I have also made doughs that were cold fermented for up to 23 days. My preferred duration was around 6-15 days. A good part of the following thread is devoted to how to make long, cold-fermented doughs: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. I never found a need to punch down or re-knead the long, cold fermented doughs.

As between the long, room-temperature fermented doughs and the long cold fermented doughs, I would say that I preferred the results I got with the long, cold-fermented doughs. I especially liked the crust flavors, color, sweetness, blistering and texture of the long, cold fermented doughs.

Had I chosen to control the fermentation temperatures of my doughs to optimize my results, which is something I could have done since I have an MR-138 unit, I might have been able to achieve comparable results to what I achieved with the cold fermented doughs, and in a much shorter time period. In my experiments, my long, room temperature doughs fermented at temperatures that were just too high or too low for optimum performance.

Peter


Peter
That was amazing.  Really.  I love it when someone smarter than me explains things like this.  I TRY to understand why things happen why I make pies, but there is always so much to learn as far as the chemistry of it.
I do this for a living, so I HAVE to get results in the simplest ways.  I can't believe you had a dough in refer for 23 days!!  Even 6 days is incredible.  Was the temp JUST above freezing??  I mean even at a cold temp the yeast is eating, slowly, but eating none the less.  Also, how is the aroma???  It must have a strong beer smell, no???  After 72 hours at 38 degrees or so I'm looking to use the dough cause I know it will be fantastic.  Because its so difficult to use, however, my employees are constently trying to use it just out of the fridge.  The dough is stiffer and easier to pound and make round.  And I of course want it to sit out for an hour or so, depending on whether its summer or winter.

Again, I will read more of your posts, they are great.