Author Topic: Modified Ultra-Thin par-baked skin trying milk, vinegar and baking soda  (Read 7741 times)

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Offline norma427

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last of pictures

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Norma or your alter ego Flo,

Can you elaborate further on the taste and texture aspects of the modified Ultra-Thin crust? It looks like the milk may have contributed to the crust coloration but did not lead to a softened crust as I thought might happen.

I am not sure what phenomena are at play that led to the darkening of the defrosed skin and crust. I thought that perhaps the ice particles that were formed when you froze the skin melted during defrosting and the water was reabsorbed into the skin. Or maybe it has something to do with the interplay between the milk, vinegar and baking soda.

Do you have any idea as to where you want to take the dough formulation, if anywhere?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Peter or your alter ego Pete-zza,

This crust was more crunchy than crispy.  The taste of the crust was different from the real clone Ultra-Thin crusts I was attempting.  I can say this crust did have more taste to it, but still not enough for my taste.  There was no taste of baking soda that I could detect in the modified crust.  I would like to have a more crispy crust.

I also wondered why this par-baked skin did change colors after freezing, when my last par-baked skin didn’t, when I used the same defrosting process as the last time. Even using the milk, vinegar and baking soda could have contributed to this phenomena, but I surely don’t know.  Another mystery, that probably never will be solved. 

I would like to take this dough formulation to a higher hydration level, to see if that will work out when trying to make a modified par-baked skin. The par-baked skin was just too hard to roll out.  Maybe this will also give a different texture to the crust.  Before I do that, I would like to take this formula with milk, vinegar and baking soda and see if it would work with a basic Lehmann dough.  Do you have any suggestions on how I would proceed with a basic Lehmann dough with adding vinegar, milk and sugar?  I would like to see how using these ingredients would affect the taste of a Lehmann dough.  I could then judge more if these tastes do contribute to a different taste in a crust or even if these ingredients would work out in a Lehmann dough.  I wouldn’t want to par-bake a Lehmann dough skin, at this time.
   
Norma aka Flo
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 09:06:58 PM by norma427 »

Offline Pete-zza

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I would like to take this dough formulation to a higher hydration level, to see if that will work out when trying to make a modified par-baked skin. The par-baked skin was just too hard to roll out.  Maybe this will also give a different texture to the crust.  Before I do that, I would like to take this formula with milk, vinegar and baking soda and see if it would work with a basic Lehmann dough.  Do you have any suggestions on how I would proceed with a basic Lehmann dough with adding vinegar, milk and sugar?  I would like to see how using these ingredients would affect the taste of a Lehmann dough.  I could then judge more if these tastes do contribute to a different taste in a crust or even if these ingredients would work out in a Lehmann dough.  I wouldn’t want to par-bake a Lehmann dough skin, at this time.

Norma,

When you are ready and want to use a modified Ultra-Thin dough formulation with a higher hydration, let me know. However, it may well be that the crunchy crust was due to the milk speeding up the crust coloration before the crust could bake longer to become more crispy. If you haven't already done so, you might want to read this PMQTT thread on milk used in dough: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=2027#p2027. Just don't ask me to convert wadave's recipe to baker's percent format  :).

With respect to modifying the basic Lehmann dough to incorporate milk, vinegar and baking soda, you might start a new thread on that subject. You also mentioned using sugar as part of the dough. Did you mean baking soda?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Peter,

I haven’t read that thread at PMQ think tank.  Thank you for referencing it. 

I see Tom Lehmann does not advocate using milk in pizza dough,  but does say that buttermilk is okay. That could be something like using vinegar mixed with milk and soda. He also states that liquid milk should be all of the hydration. I wonder how that would work out.  He also states that scalding the milk would be okay.  Tom also says that lactose and protein of milk will contribute to the crust color when baked and the butter fat content might contribute a little bit of flavor. Tom says that using a super high heat milk can act as a reducing agent. I did scald milk different times for recipes here are home, but I forget why I had to do that.

wa dave ideas are interesting, but I wouldn’t ask you to convert this to a Lehmann dough.  I have already asked enough about conversions and could understand what major reconstructive surgery that would be. 

I also see that Otis Gunn did also try milk in his pizza dough, without any good results.  He was always trying to reinvent the wheel. 

I did bake this modified par-baked skin for 6 minutes, so I would have thought that would have been enough time to get the crust crispy.  I had taken my tongs and checked on the crust while it was baking and wanted to wait until the crust got crispy, but it never did.

I did mean baking soda, instead of sugar I posted.  I edited the sugar.

I will start a new thread to see what results could be achieved in a Lehmann dough with using the milk, vinegar and baking soda.  I will come back to this thread when I am finished with the experiments on the Lehmann dough.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

I personally don't think that I would use milk in a dough that is to be used to make a crackery crust. I think the lactose in the milk can cause the bottom of the crust to brown too quickly before it can bake long enough to achieve a cracker-like characteristic. And the more milk you use, the less crispy the crust is likely to become. There are very few commercial pizza operators who use milk, in part because of health department issues but also for the other reasons mentioned by Tom Lehmann in the thread I referenced. Donatos, the Midwest pizza chain, used to use milk (and eggs also) in its doughs and made a big deal of it in their advertising. They no longer talk about milk (or eggs) in their doughs. You can get some idea as to a Donatos dough and pizza and crust characteristics at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2711.msg23368.html#msg23368 and also at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5977.msg51211.html#msg51211.

Also, at one time, when Pizza Hut made fresh dough for its pan pizzas, it used to use a dry milk blend of whey, skim milk and buttermilk. As you know, the PH pan pizza doughs bake up to form a rather soft crust. If you'd like, you can purchase a convenient 50-lb. bag of a dry blend like PH used at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/129fb46d-3f5f-43a0-8aef-39f33e4d8a70. That should carry you through your round of milk experiments  :-D.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Peter,

I will read though the threads you have referenced.  I never tried to make a dough with milk and eggs, but could see how health related issues could be involved when using those ingredients.  I know how fussy the health inspectors can be.  They are doing it for all the customers own good, but some of the rules can be ridiculous.  The one that gets me the most is to wash your hands each time before you put on gloves.  That alone could get you to the hand wash sink many times a day.   :-D

Dutch Valley is very near to me and if I decide to do many experiments, which I don’t think I will, I will look into purchasing a 50 lb. bag.  The owner of my former stand does deal with Dutch Valley, and I will have to ask him if any of his relatives or friends use the mixture of whey, skim milk and buttermilk. The Amish do a lot of baking, so maybe getting a small amount from one of them could be a possibility.  :-D The Amish man that bought my former stands is very generous.

Norma aka Flo

Offline Pete-zza

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wa dave ideas are interesting, but I wouldn’t ask you to convert this to a Lehmann dough.  I have already asked enough about conversions and could understand what major reconstructive surgery that would be. 

Norma,

I was just kidding. If you can get the full dough recipe from wadave, I can take a look at it although it would perhaps have to be treated like the Lehmann preferment case, which would rule out using the expanded dough calculating tool in a direct way. Also, since wadave is from Australia, some of the measurements would have to be converted to U.S. standards. For example, an Australian cup is not the same as a U.S. cup. My recollection is that wadave uses pizza screens.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Peter,

I can’t believe you would want to do this major reconstructive surgery again, with all those numbers, but I will see if I can get the dough formula from wadave.  I will try to contact him tomorrow.  Maybe if I can get the formula, it would be a new way for any members that want to try to make a pizza in a different way.  Since his posts at PMQ think tank were awhile ago, I will wait and see what happens and if he responds. 

I can understand some of the measurements would have to be converted to U.S. standards. Since I am not good at converting anything, if I can get this formula, it will have to be up to you to do the conversions. 

I hate to have to ask you to do all the work with the numbers.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Peter,

After you said you would try to figure out the formula for a sour dough Lehmann dough or another kind of dough, I did PM wadave last night on PMQ think tank.  This was his response.  If you need any other information, let me know.  I did tell him I like to experiment and would like to see how his formula works out, in my experiments. I also did tell Dave that I am using the preferment for the Lehmann dough in my one day a week market stand and am satisfied with that formula for my market stand.

Dave's response:

Norma. I make up 25kg batches of dough at a time and use 2 jars of sour dough ( roughly 1 and 1/2 litres) to a batch.
My wife did see a TV show where a guy was making sour dough bread adding a similar formula as ours. He made it up in a big jar and kept it in the fridge using what he needed at the time. Apparently it kept in good condition.
If you were making up say a 5lb batch I would probably use about 4 table spoons to the dough formula you use.
Just make sure that the formula has fermented fully and that it has turned from a pancake like mixture to one where it has expanded up to a fluffy areated consitentcy. Normallt takes about 24 hrs in hot weather and 36 hrs in colder weather to reach this point.
Hope this works out for you

Dave

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

After I posted, I recalled that another member of this forum had an exchange with wadave on his recipe. Unfortunately, what I saw of the recipe was on an old computer that is now in computer heaven. But if I recall correctly, wadave also used some egg in his recipe, but not in the sourdough mix itself. However, my recollection is that there was so little egg that it was unlikely have much effect on the final product. You might want to ask wadave for the full recipe and, while you are at it, ask him what amount of dough he uses to make a given size pizza. I don't think that information is anywhere on the PMQTT. I also did not see at the PMQTT the type and amount of yeast wadave uses, as well as other ingredients like salt, oil, etc. Those should all be in the complete recipe. You might also confirm whether he is using Australian cup measurements in his recipe.

wadave also uses a different approach to his dough making and management. For example, I believe that he cold ferments his dough in bulk and does the division the next day. I think that he uses that approach rather than doing the division right after the dough is made because he does not have the right space or adequate space to store the dough balls. If I have my facts right (you might be able to find his post on this subject), his approach is not the normal one for cold fermented dough.

If you can get all of the information we need to proceed, you can start yet another thread on the recipe since it has nothing to do with thin, cracker-style pizzas.

Peter

Offline norma427

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I had posted on PMQTT about my recent attempt at the modified Ultra-Thin par-baked skin.  Tom Lehmann explained what he thought happened with the crust getting darker.  If anyone is interested in seeing what Tom Lehmann had to say, this is the link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63364#p63363

Norma

Offline norma427

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Another response posted by Tom Lehmann on what makes a good dough, if anyone is interested in reading about it.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&start=30#p63366

Norma

Offline ryank

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Re: Modified Ultra-Thin par-baked skin trying milk, vinegar and baking soda
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2010, 09:43:34 AM »
Norma,

I personally don't think that I would use milk in a dough that is to be used to make a crackery crust. I think the lactose in the milk can cause the bottom of the crust to brown too quickly before it can bake long enough to achieve a cracker-like characteristic. And the more milk you use, the less crispy the crust is likely to become. There are very few commercial pizza operators who use milk, in part because of health department issues but also for the other reasons mentioned by Tom Lehmann in the thread I referenced. Donatos, the Midwest pizza chain, used to use milk (and eggs also) in its doughs and made a big deal of it in their advertising. They no longer talk about milk (or eggs) in their doughs. You can get some idea as to a Donatos dough and pizza and crust characteristics at ...

Also, at one time, when Pizza Hut made fresh dough for its pan pizzas, it used to use a dry milk blend of whey, skim milk and buttermilk. As you know, the PH pan pizza doughs bake up to form a rather soft crust. If you'd like, you can purchase a convenient 50-lb. bag of a dry blend like PH used at ****. That should carry you through your round of milk experiments  :-D.

Peter

Peter,

What would be the big health department concerns using milk and eggs in the dough?  Is it in managing the dough temperatures, or would the health department have a problem with fermenting the dough for more than a few hours outside the fridge?

In your opinion for the Donatos style crust, would the recipe work with powdered egg and powdered milk all the same as Wazatron's recipe?  Would that reduce health department concerns?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Modified Ultra-Thin par-baked skin trying milk, vinegar and baking soda
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2010, 11:20:37 AM »
What would be the big health department concerns using milk and eggs in the dough?  Is it in managing the dough temperatures, or would the health department have a problem with fermenting the dough for more than a few hours outside the fridge?

In your opinion for the Donatos style crust, would the recipe work with powdered egg and powdered milk all the same as Wazatron's recipe?  Would that reduce health department concerns?

ryank,

The main concern with the use of fresh milk and fresh eggs is with respect to health departments and cross-contamination issues. Apparently Donatos was able to use milk and eggs, presumably fresh at least in the early days, but we don't know how they managed their use, or the actual forms of the milk and eggs, to avoid cross-contamination issues. Remember, also, that advice on these matters from Tom Lehmann is likely to be on the conservative side since he is unlikely to recommend that professionals use fresh milk and eggs only to see a cross-contamination or similar health concern arise that comes back to haunt him. From the end user's side, a cross-contamination or other health department problem arising out of the use of fresh milk and eggs could result in bad publicity, say if someone got sick, and have other adverse consequences on the business.

You can read more on this topic in the series of PMQTT posts starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=21492#p21492 (with respect to milk), and also, with respect to eggs, the PMQTT threads at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5615&p=34413&hilit=#p34388 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3423&p=17983&hilit=#p17980 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=822&p=3764&hilit=#p3736.

I'm not sure how the Donatos style dough would perform using dry milk and dry eggs. The dry milk part might be easier to execute simply by adding the proper amount of water to be equivalent to the fresh product (most fresh milks contain around 88% water). I have never worked with dry eggs but using dry eggs might be more difficult to try to equate with fresh eggs from a quantitative standpoint as well as from the standpoint of composition. I would perhaps study the nutrition data for whole fresh eggs (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2) and dry eggs (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/121/2) and try to see how I might establish the proper equivalency, especially the amount of water to add to dry eggs to equate raw, fresh eggs. It is also possible, and perhaps likely, that the producers of dry eggs tell users how to make substitutions.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Modified Ultra-Thin par-baked skin trying milk, vinegar and baking soda
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2010, 12:09:51 PM »
Restaurants and food manufacturers have pasteurized liquid egg products (refrigerated and frozen) available to them from straight yolk to whole egg, to straight whites and many specialty blends in between. The eggs are separated, and the yolks and whites are pasteurized separately. They are then blended in a wide variety of ratios for specific cooking and baking purposes. Great products.

Most grocery stores carry all white liquid egg products (most have color added to make them look like whole eggs when scrambled), and many carry liquid whole egg equivelents (Better'n Eggs) 1/4 cup = 1 shell egg.

http://www.michaelfoods.com/foodservice/products-eggs.cfm
http://www.michaelfoods.com/food-ingredients/pdf/Food-Ingredients-Product-List-082709.pdf
 
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