Questions about deep dish crust

[DTJunkie]

Hey guys, I recently started making deep dish pizzas. My pictures are below along with the formulation I used. I am trying to compare the crust with some of the ones made on this forum. My crust is more crackery, while the ideal crust i hear alot is the flaky, biscuit like crust. I've seen the semolina thread pictures and notice the dough at the time of preparation looks different from mine. I left my dough in the refrigerator over 24 hours and it was doughy when it went it. but when i took it out to let the dough get to room temperature, which took like two hours for me, I noticed the dough was watery, had holes, and was soft and limp.

[norma427]

DTJunkie,

I made some deep-dish stuffed pizzas and I found that I really like this formula for the crust.  If you are interested in seeing the pizza I made, this is the link. If you go down in that link you can see where the formula is posted.  This formula could be used for a single crust if it is revised.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10018.msg87298.html#msg87298

Your pizza looks great. 

Norma

[DTJunkie]

Thanks for the comment. But an issue I was wondering with is the dough itself, as mentioned previously, my dough is not dough like when i take it out of the refrigerator. Instead, it is wet, leaking water, has a lot of porous holes, and is very limp and spongy. Is it because the dough has over risen?

[norma427]

Thanks for the comment. But an issue I was wondering with is the dough itself, as mentioned previously, my dough is not dough like when i take it out of the refrigerator. Instead, it is wet, leaking water, has a lot of porous holes, and is very limp and spongy. Is it because the dough has over risen?

DTJunkie,

I just used the formula and how I made the deep dish crust, posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10018.msg103752.html#msg103752

I don't know what formula you used, or how long you let the dough ferment, but your dough could have been overfermented.  I don't really know because I didn't see you dough.  I also have some problems with dough overfermenting from time to time.  If you want to give it a try again, you will see what I did.  I am not an expert on deep-dish crusts, so maybe some one that is more knowledgeable might also be able to help you.

Norma

[DTJunkie]

After looking at various posts on the forum, I am sure my dough was overproofed. My thermostat sets my room temperature at 72 degrees and I would think my refrigerator cools in the low 40s. The problem was the time (almost 2 hours) for the dough to get warm enough. But I have heard that the 60s is ok for dough. I also heard that rapid temperature changes in the surrounding area can also cause the dough to overproof. Is there a benefit for deep dish pizza dough to be proofed in the refrigerator overnight?

[norma427]

DTJunkie,

I am not that experienced with deep-dish formulas or doughs.  Warm up times can be around 1hr. to 3 hrs., all depending how the dough looks and how long it might been cold fermented.  There can be leeway in this, in my opinion.  I also don’t have that much experience with longer room fermented doughs.  All I do know, is cold fermented dough usually gives a better flavor to the crust, so to answer your question, in my opinion the crust would taste better if the dough is cold fermented overnight. 

Maybe other members can answer your question better.

Norma

[Mick.Chicago]

Is there a benefit for deep dish pizza dough to be proofed in the refrigerator overnight?

Yes!

No further explanation required, just yes.

Use a zip-lock bag or Tupperware or something with a glass lid so you can see what's going on and learn from your mistakes. Try a few different positions in the refrigerator as well.

Maybe even clear a shelf just for dough 

[vcb]

My crust is more crackery, while the ideal crust i hear alot is the flaky, biscuit like crust.

From the photos you've posted, it looks like you got close to the mark on the crust.

I think there may be confusion about the 'biscuit-like' description that many of us have described of deep dish crust.

To help clarify the description a bit, deep-dish crust is similar to a biscuit or pie crust,
but it's less about tenderness and more about the texture of the outer part of the biscuit.

If you've ever baked a drop-biscuit or buttermilk biscuit at home,
you'll notice how often the outer part of the biscuit is a bit dry, crusty and a little crumbly.
Sometimes the biscuit can be a bit on the flaky side as well, similar to a pie crust.
If you've ever made those 'biscuit-from-a-can' products from your local grocery store refrigerator aisle,
IT'S NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. You should not be expecting soft, springy layers with a thin moderately chewy crust.

Because you are working with a dough that has more oil than a typical pizza dough, and are likely also greasing your pizza pan,
there will be a bit of a fried texture on the outer part of your crust (how much will depend on how much heat/oil you've used),
and you will get a texture somewhere between a crumbly buttermilk biscuit, a flaky pie crust, and a short dough butter cookie.
 If you get something close to any of those, you're on the right track. You might also get something crunchier,
almost like the texture of uncooked pasta (many in this forum are using semolina flour in their dough recipes to achieve this texture).

On another note, I wouldn't recommend using a two-crust 'stuffed crust' dough recipe to make a single-crust deep dish.
The textures are quite different, especially if you are comparing a Giordano's stuffed crust to a Lou Malnati's deep dish crust.

[PizzaHog]

DT
From your description it does sound possible that your dough was over fermented.  While it is generally true that longer (inc cold) ferments are "better" than shorter, great results can be had both ways as i have read from our forum experts on this style and also tested myself.  You might consider trying again with your present formula but skip the fridge this time.  Let it rise to double at room temp  (prob about 2 hours or so), punch it down, let it double again (another 2 hrs or so), then pan and bake it up.  That should prevent any over fermentation and if it works out you can then move on to the fridge and see what happens.
I also learned the hard way how critical bake times are with these texture wise.  No way to be sure from your photo, but too crackery is one common symptom of overbaked.  These photos courtesy of Loowaters shows how a perfect bake has always looked for me.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.msg34826.html#msg34826 
Good Luck!
   

[DTJunkie]

My latest pizza crust came out nicely. But I now wonder how do people work the dough when you put it in the pan? I place the dough ball in the middle of the pan and then pull/push it towards the edge of the pan and then I pull the crust up on the sides. I have noticed that there seems to be uneven distribution of dough at times where an area is too doughy or not enough dough where the dough thins out or tears.

[vcb]

My latest pizza crust came out nicely. But I now wonder how do people work the dough when you put it in the pan? I place the dough ball in the middle of the pan and then pull/push it towards the edge of the pan and then I pull the crust up on the sides. I have noticed that there seems to be uneven distribution of dough at times where an area is too doughy or not enough dough where the dough thins out or tears.

I start with the dough in the middle, like you do, but i press it all out evenly all the way to the edge, patching any holes along the way,
 then i pinch up a very thin lip along the walls of the pan.

Watch how they do it at Lou Malnatis from this video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTlChw3Ib9Q" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTlChw3Ib9Q</a>

[Randy]

For the last couple of years I have been rolling the dough out so it fits in the bottom of the pan then using my finger, pull the dough up to the sides.  Makes a pretty uniform pizza that way.

Randy

[DTJunkie]

Ok, that should settle all my crust issues. A new issue arose on my most recent pie. The crust was made in a way that I liked, but there was an excessive amount of water this time, making the crust soggy. It could have been me not draining the tomatoes, the cheese i used (sliced Sorrento mozzarella from the deli, didn't check if it was whole milk or skim, or from the almost 1 lb of sausage that I used. I suspect it is the sausage.

Besides the sogginess, one thing I cannot seem to replicate properly is the gooey, stringiness of the cheese that I've had at deep dish joints. My pies are 14 inches and I tried from a 1lb to 1.5lbs of cheese, with no luck.

[Mick.Chicago]

Ok, that should settle all my crust issues. A new issue arose on my most recent pie. The crust was made in a way that I liked, but there was an excessive amount of water this time, making the crust soggy. It could have been me not draining the tomatoes, the cheese i used (sliced Sorrento mozzarella from the deli, didn't check if it was whole milk or skim, or from the almost 1 lb of sausage that I used. I suspect it is the sausage.

Besides the sogginess, one thing I cannot seem to replicate properly is the gooey, stringiness of the cheese that I've had at deep dish joints. My pies are 14 inches and I tried from a 1lb to 1.5lbs of cheese, with no luck.

What's your bake time and temp?

How are you layering the cheese?

[vcb]

Ok, that should settle all my crust issues. A new issue arose on my most recent pie. The crust was made in a way that I liked, but there was an excessive amount of water this time, making the crust soggy. It could have been me not draining the tomatoes, the cheese i used (sliced Sorrento mozzarella from the deli, didn't check if it was whole milk or skim, or from the almost 1 lb of sausage that I used. I suspect it is the sausage.

Besides the sogginess, one thing I cannot seem to replicate properly is the gooey, stringiness of the cheese that I've had at deep dish joints. My pies are 14 inches and I tried from a 1lb to 1.5lbs of cheese, with no luck.

Ok, that should settle all my crust issues. A new issue arose on my most recent pie. The crust was made in a way that I liked, but there was an excessive amount of water this time, making the crust soggy. It could have been me not draining the tomatoes, the cheese i used (sliced Sorrento mozzarella from the deli, didn't check if it was whole milk or skim, or from the almost 1 lb of sausage that I used. I suspect it is the sausage.

Besides the sogginess, one thing I cannot seem to replicate properly is the gooey, stringiness of the cheese that I've had at deep dish joints. My pies are 14 inches and I tried from a 1lb to 1.5lbs of cheese, with no luck.

It could be any of those things.

Water can come from the tomatoes and the cheese.
Grease can also puddle up from the sausage, cheese, and pepperoni (if you're using it) and add to the liquid.

For cheese, it will be very helpful to make sure you are using low-moisture part skim (or low moisture whole milk) mozzarella .
That should cut down on some of the water.

When I have the opportunity to stop by Sam's Club,
I usually pick up a 5 lb brick of Stella (sometimes labeled as 'Bakers and Chef's'), which I like a lot for deep dish.
I have a local grocery store (Jewel) variety of low moisture part skim mozzarella that also works well for me,
but you might want to search the forum to see what others use.


A great reference for mozzarella cheese: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/09_Cheese/09_cheese.htm#_Toc533730609

Four Types of Mozzarella

                                 Moisture %      Milkfat-in-solids %

Whole milk mozzarella            52-60%          45% or more

Part-skim mozzarella             52-60%          30-45%

Low-moist. whole milk mozz.      45-52%          45%or more

Low-moist. part-skim mozz.       45-52%          30-45%

Low-moisture mozzarella was created from a need to lengthen the product’s shelf life and also to make it easier to process for the pizzeria. Most mozzarella produced today is of the low-moisture type (45 to 52 percent mois­ture). However some suppliers offer part-skim moz­zarella as a low-priced “economy” option. (Buyers should be aware that there’s a difference between regu­lar part-skim and low-moisture part-skim.) Regular whole milk mozzarella is seldom seen in a pizzeria because it neither processes easily nor bakes up well. However, with shred­ded and diced frozen cheese, shelf life and processability have become of lesser concern. So higher moisture mozzarella is becoming more common.

one more quote about cheese stretch:

STRETCH. Stretch is a function of milk protein and how it was developed (i.e., kneaded) during cheese manufacture. Since protein content is similar there’s little difference in stretch between whole milk and part-skim. However, if pressed to find a difference, part-skim probably has a little more stretch.

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040606230957/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/09_Cheese/09_cheese.htm

[DTJunkie]

What's your bake time and temp?

How are you layering the cheese?

Most of the time I bake at 45 minutes at 425. I bake it on the lower rack in my oven for like 15 minutes, then rotate 180 degrees and place it on the top rack.

I usually put the cheese slices on top of the crust, and then the sausage on the cheese, and the tomatoes. However, with the 1.5 lbs of cheese that I recently used, I layered it, crust, cheese, sausage, and more cheese, then the sauce.

[FLAVORMAN]

I bake at 450 and the amount of cheese sounds like to much. I use smoked provolone 1lb for a 14 in. and drain 28oz can whole tomato then chop.
I agree the 24 hour frig is the only way to go as mentioned in some posts a month or so ago...I have tried 4-5 hour bench rise but we like 2-3 bench rise, fridge overnight, and 2-3 bench rest and we do not punch down again as suggested in the past. Put the dough in the 14 inch pan, pat down and go to town...hope this gives some info that might help your soggy dough......try the semolina recipes posted, we like it the best....(we use 15% semolina and the rest KA flour)