Author Topic: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?  (Read 6880 times)

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scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2010, 07:11:46 PM »
Alright Bob, I'm going to have to keep an eye out for that.


Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2010, 07:21:52 PM »
That's a pretty nice looking crumb Bob. Do you remember how it tasted? If good then that really is pizza in a box! 

JT

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2010, 07:58:24 PM »
Hey guys,
Thanks for the two thumbs up.  I checked back to the old post.  It was actually a 48 hour ferment.  I let it sit 24 hours to form gluten, because Chef Boyardee is so hard to work with.  After 24 hours I then balled it to align the gluten by using the fold into itself method, and let it sit for another 24 hours in the fridge.  It seems I was lucky in catching the sweet spot.  It was better than the usual C B R D dough but still not as tasty as KABF or KASL with a two day ferment.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2106.80.html

Bob

Offline fazzari

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2010, 11:44:54 PM »
Here's another take on oven spring.  I've baked thousands and thousands of laminated cracker crusts in my life (usually about 34% hydration).  If for any reason at all the bottom crust forms to quickly, the transfer of heat from hearth up will almost stop, and the heat will stay concentrated on the bottom crust...meaning very little spring.    When this happens, there are two things you can do...lower the temperature of the oven, and consider using pizza screens.  This will increase the oven spring of a pizza in this particular situation.

Having said that, I noticed something fascinating last November while baking baguettes.  I had 4 loaves to bake, but my baguette pan only held 3 loaves.  So, I baked the 4th loaf right on my pizza stone, right along side the baguette pan.  After the loaves cooled, I split them long ways to check out the difference, and the result is exactly what Scott predicted above in one of his answers.  The faster you get heat to the crust, the better rise you will get.  Notice the difference in the loaves below....the one with all the holes was baked directly on the stone.
John

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2010, 02:10:38 AM »
Fazarri, nice post along with pics.  Correct me if I'm wrong here or have misunderstood you but you seem to be saying contradictory things here.  In the first 1/2 of your post you state that if heat is transferred too quickly (I'm reading this as a high heat bake or baking on a material that is very conductive), the bottom crust can form too quickly thus locking up most of the heat there resulting in less oven spring.  You remedy this by lowering the baking temps.  So by your results lower temps will achieve a higher spring in this specific situation.

In the 2nd half of your post, you noted that baking on the pizza stone vs a pan resulted in a more aerated crumb ie more oven spring.  You concluded that the faster you get heat to the crust, the better the oven spring.  This is opposite of what you stated above. 

I agree that the 2nd picture shows a more aerated crumb, but do you remember (or have photos) if the overall loaf baked on the stone was bigger?  This is also assuming all other factors that contribute to oven spring remains the same and that the starting dough weights were equal.  I'm not sure that a more aerated crumb equals a higher oven spring.  It may be that all the loaves were of the same size but the one baked on the stone had a more aerated or lighter crumb.  If so, does this mean that it had more oven spring?  Also in this specific situation, it's possible that the limiting effect of the low hydration ratio on oven spring is greater than the limiting effect of temperature differences.   ???

It sounds like what you experienced has more to do with the conductivity of materials as they affect oven spring rather than the effects of different baking temps as they relate to oven spring.  Maybe it's all the same as heat IS heat.  This reminds me of the website selling fibrament stones.  There they show 2 different loaves of bread baked on a fibrament stone vs a regular baking stone.  In there photo of the cross section of the loaves, you can see that the loaf baked on the fibrament has a more aerated crumb and larger overall size.

It's late and I'm going off of my shady memory, but if memory serves me correctly, fibrament is poorly conductive compare to other stone materials and better suited for bread.   Poor conductivity and still able to provide great oven spring?  Am I just confusing myself here?  Can someone explain this to me? 

I'm repeating this test tomorrow and will attempt to compare temp and hydration differences to see how they affect oven spring.  You've given me an idea to form small loaves with the dough so we can compare the crumb structure vs the overall oven spring or the overall size of loaf.

Thanks for the input,
JT
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 02:30:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2010, 07:34:01 AM »

Jackie Tran,

One of the reasons if still wonders me if baking at higher temperatures really do contribute to oven spring is because I have experimented with my same dough, in different ways.  Like I mentioned before, I sure donít know and will keep on experimenting.  :-\  If you are interested in looking at these pictures, you can see different ways I used this same dough and got good oven spring by using different methods.  Just something to think about.  There werenít any variables in the dough, just different methods to fry or bake the dough.

Panouzzo made from same dough and baked in my home oven on the baking stone at 500 degrees F.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg96100.html#msg96100

Zeppoles deep-fried with same dough at 365 degrees F.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg99183.html#msg99183

Hamburger buns fried in butter in cast iron skillet on the stove from same dough

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg98641.html#msg98641

Pizzette pizza men deep-fried at 350 degrees F from the same dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg99682.html#msg99682

Norma
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2010, 07:45:37 AM »
Tran,
Just a side note.  My C B R D was cooked on a 1/2" 17x 17 fibrament laid on top of a 1/2 " stone that came with the bakers pride P18 oven.    http://www.bakerspride.com/products-hearthbake-e.asp.  I have two stones for the Bakers Pride and a third special cut for my conventional oven.  " I love Fibrament" Maybe the heat transfer on the stone in combination with hydration, flour strength, tightness of the gluten, height above sea level, specific gravity of the sauce, and weight of the toppings all come into play.  Notice the C B R D only has a light sauce with light Parmesan, and the results may be amplified.  I am also at 300 feet above sea level.  My water boils close to 212 F.  I have read that you should add 2 minutes cook time for every 1000' of elevation, or lose close to 1 degree for every 550 feet ASL.  I would think there is a lot more energy in 212 degree steam as opposed to 200 degree steam.

Bob

Norma,
Oops, I see you posted while I was writing.  I agree with the elevation being a great factor.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:48:11 AM by Bob1 »

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2010, 08:57:17 AM »
Thanks for the links and photos Norma.  I'll go through them today.  Do you use the exact same formulation week after week.  Everything is the same?  Same % of yeast (preferment), same fermentation times, etc.  The only thing you vary is what you make with the dough correct?  Thank you for all the work you have put in and thanks for sharing the info.  It is really informative!

Bob thanks for posting your experience using Fibrament.  I have not use it and have no opinion of it. I have heard that many folks are happy with theirs.  I agree that elevation may have a huge role in oven spring.  I unfortunately do not have the experience or knowledge to delve into that subject.  I only know the very general affects of it from googling it.  I have posted inquiries about the effects of high altitude on crust rise many times before without much response.  I live at 5000+ feet elevation and a very arid climate.  No doubt that has a big effect on my pizza making.  If you are right about a 212F steam being stronger than a 202F steam, then oven temps should have a bigger effect at sea level than at high altitudes.  Great!  makes the water even muddier!  :-D

Again, temperature is only one of so many factors in producing ovenspring.  I think if we were to try to experiment with all the factors individually we could be at it for years and this thread would get so long, it would turn most folks away.   After my initial result from 1 experiment, it honestly wouldn't bother me to let the subject rest.  I'm doing todays experiment b/c I have free time and it's peaked my curiosity, knowing full well that temp only is one player in the game. 

I suspect that I may not get results too different from my initial findings but want to satisfy my own and other's curiosity.   Again, no matter the results, it's only 1 factor of many that affects oven spring.  From my own experience i feel that amount of yeast, especially commercial yeast and overall % of fermentation of the dough have bigger effects on oven spring than temperature does.  I don't mean to rub anyone the wrong way with that comment, but in the few pies I've made, that's what I've noticed. 

(While typing this, I'm keeping in mind that Norma and others have produced "some" oven spring without using yeast at all).

Chau
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 04:14:00 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2010, 09:12:26 AM »
Jackie Tran,

You donít have to go though the links.  They are just pictures of different things I did with the same dough, but using it different ways in baking or frying.  I use the exact same formula for all these pictures in the same thread. Yeast, flour, salt, IDY, and hydration are all the same. I donít vary how I make this dough. The final dough temperature is the same in a amount of a couple of degrees.  I ferment the poolish in a heated proofing box for about an hour or less until it bubbles, then cold ferment the poolish for 3 days.  Add to final mix after three days, then weigh, ball and let the dough cold ferment for one more day.  Sometimes if I have leftover dough, then I use it for experiments, after I have frozen it.

I also agree that many factors could come into play with oven spring.  Will be interesting to see your results from today.

Norma
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Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2010, 09:34:02 AM »
I hope for a good showing as well however I'm a little nervous about the bake.   I decided last night that I would revisit nearlypolitan pies since I feel I have worked out most of the kinks in the MBE now.

Being that it would be a neapolitan pie today I mixed up a batch of dough last night using starter instead of ADY like I have been lately with my New-politan pies.  Since I had the scale and the working bench out and floured I decided that I would also mix up the doughs for today's experiment. 

So right off the bat, I'm dealing with a slightly different dough.  Same formulation as the above pies but with the following changes.  Con Agra HG flour was used this time instead of All Trumps.  The biggest change is using ~2.5% starter instead of 1%ADY.   I'm also room temp (76F)fermenting this dough for 10 hours now.  I had estimated it to be ready within 8-10 hours.  It is 10 hours now and the dough doesn't look really poofy.  It doesn't looked doubled either. 

If I poke it with my finger, the indent does spring back about 60% or so and leaves a small indent.  Does anyone else poke their dough as a sign of readiness?  I'm not quite sure if using this test, I'm suppose to not get any spring back or just a tiny amount. 

I think I will let the dough rise a few more hours and hopefully it's still usuable. 

« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 04:15:57 PM by Jackie Tran »


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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2010, 10:05:23 AM »
So here are a few challenges I faced with this experiment so far.  So in this experiment I will be testing 2 variables side by side.  Hydration ratios and oven temps and their effects on oven spring.

I first had a goal of making a 65% vs a 75% dough.  Using my usual hand kneading technique, my normal HR is around 73-76%.  I knew ahead of time that making a 65% hydrated dough by hand would be a challenge for me.  So I premeasure the flour for the low hydration dough and attempted to work it all in.
I couldn't get all the flour in.  At some point it was feeling really dry to me and I felt that if I forced more flour in, I would definitely have to overwork the dough.  I was really wanting to avoid overkneading as I felt it could potentially throw off the experiment.  Once I got as much flour as I reasonably could in, I calculated the HR to be 69%.   :(  not really low for a low hydration dough but that's what I got.

I then made the high hydration dough and this time purposely made a much wetter dough than I normally work with to try and create an appreciable gap b/t the 2 hydration ratios.   I wasn't worried about opening this wet dough later as I would be making small round boules and not pizzas.  The higher hydrated ball ended up being 78%.   So I'm satisfied with a 9% difference.  If it makes a big difference in ovenspring, I suspect we will see it at the higher temp bake.  All doughballs were at 97gms each.  I'm planning to bake these at around 300 vs 700 hearth temps (taken in the center of the MBE through the lid vent). 

So after checking on the balls this morning, the higher hydrated balls had flattened out quite a bit while the LH balls only flattened a bit.  I ended up reballing the HH balls just so they would be the same size as the LH balls.  Yes I know that reballing = kneading = strengthens gluten BUT the LH balls had gotten more knead time to begin with so this should even things out a bit more in the knead time department. 

Here's what the doughballs look like.  Red = lower hydration (69%)  Green = HH (78%)
Pic 1 after kneading and balling.
Pic 2 after about 8 hours rest at room temps
Pic 3 after reballing the green ones and redusting. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 04:21:07 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2010, 12:37:04 PM »
Ok results are in.  First bake was the low hydration (LH) dough.  I initially wanted to bake this at 350F, but the lowest I could get the MBE was 400F.  Even with the lid off for a bit and stone temps below 300, once the lid went back on temps rose fairly quickly back to 400F. 

I decided to make these as round bread boules rather than stretch and topp as I feel this shape would give a better visual representation of the spring and crumb.  The dough balls were 97gm each and flattened to about 3.5".

Low temp bake
Pic 1 Prebake (red = LH of 69%) Green (HH of 78%)
Pic 2 after 2 min (HH is slightly higher)
Pic 3 after 3.5min (HH dough is visually higher and has just domed against the top)
Pic 4 after 5min bake (LH has also domed in the 4:_ time frame)
Pic 5 post bake

This LH bread was baked for another 2 min with no further change in oven spring b/c both had domed already.

Dome height is 2".

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2010, 12:44:47 PM »
B/c the low temp doughs domed, I decided to flatten out the high temp doughballs a bit more but that didn't seem to make a difference.  I baked these at 750+ 3mins.

Pic 1 prebake.  I had to hand stretch the LH (red) ball a bit while I didn't have to mess with the HH ball much.  I also put a marker on them so I wouldn't accidentally mix them up with the others.
Pic 2 after 1 min (HH dough visually higher here)
Pic 3 after 2 min (both had domed around the 1.5m mark)
Pic 4 Post bake.  Bread pulled after 3min 30 seconds. 

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2010, 12:58:22 PM »
First let's take a look at how temps affect crumb structure and overall spring.

Pic 1 LH dough baked at low temps (left) vs high temps (right)
Pic 2 HH dough baked at low temps (Left) vs HTs (right)

Visually the crumb of both the low vs high temps don't look that different.  The higher temps do have bigger voids.   The higher temp doughs did dome sooner.   I wasn't able to forsee that both doughballs at both temps would dome so with this test we can't see overall spring.  All we can see is that both balls at low and high temps demostrate great oven spring.  Had there not been a ceiling, I believe that the higher temp bakes would have produce a greater oven spring.  Would it have been a signifcantly greater spring?  I can't say with any surety.  I don't think so, but bigger yes. 

Texture wise, the higher temp bake did produce a lighter crumb.  Was it signficantly lighter - No.  Maybe 10-20% max if I'm guessing (which I am).
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:05:07 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2010, 01:11:12 PM »
Now for a look at how hydration levels affect crumb structure and overall oven spring.  Again we are comparing a 69% HR dough to a 78% HR dough.

Pic 1 LH vs HH with the Low temp bake (400F)
Pic 2 another crumb shot of LH vs HH with low temp bake.
Pic 3 LH vs HH at high temp bakes (750)
Pic 4 another shot of LH vs HH at High temp

Again b/c of the low ceiling and doming effect we can't fairly judge over all oven spring.  I can only guess that there would have been a slight difference when baking at higher temps.  I'm not so sure about lower temps though b/c it took around 4+ mins for both pies to dome.  By then I think the dough would have set already. 

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2010, 01:22:15 PM »
Tentative conclusions  ;D .  I'm gonna say that I was wrong again on 2 counts.  Hydration ratios and temps do affect oven spring.  But do they affect it significantly within the boundaries of pizza making?  Ummm - I'm not so sure.  I would have to say (IMO) they don't have a big impact on pizza making.  Meaning that at temps of 500-700F and at hydration ratios of 65-75%, the difference is not much.   

Visually the crumbs b/t the low hydration low temp bake was different from the high hydration high temp bake, but was it significant?  Hard to say here without being subjective.  Maybe a 20% difference? 
I was fairly surprise to see that the difference in crumb structure b/t the LH and HH doughs were not as different as I had thought it would be. 

Texture wise, the LH dough both low and high temps were definitely denser. Was it a lot denser? No, but it was noticeable.  The best tasting was the High hydration and high temp bake.  It had the lightest texture of the bunch but it wasn't significantly lighter.  Objectively - NO,  subjectlively - Yes.  Yes, b/c in my world of perfect pizza crust, this small difference does amount to a significant difference in the end experience.

Moistness - again I was surprise here to see that the HH dough was not really any more moist than the 69% dough.   It was lighter, but was it moister?  Not by much if any. 

Ok comments and reactions?



« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:42:50 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2010, 01:53:43 PM »
Jackie Tran,

Your experimenting were interesting to me.  At a difference in the baking of about 200 degrees F and also different hydration levels, it was interesting to see what happened. 

I also will continue to watch and see what happens with my dough. 

Thanks for the experiments,

Norma
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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2010, 04:34:24 PM »
Thanks Norma.  The difference in temp was more like 350 degrees.

As a side note: I have mentioned this before and will do again.  I have never thought that the temps in my MBE is even across the hearth.  It's definitely hotter around the perimeter where the hot air rises.

The interesting thing about these 2 experiments is that I could get relatively the same oven spring (over time) baking at 400F vs 750 in the MBE.  Which goes to show how important that top heat is.  I can guarantee you I haven't gotten oven spring like this in the home oven, even with hearth temps of 700F.  My home oven just doesn't give me good even top and bottom heat.

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2010, 06:33:17 PM »
Fibrament's Experiment

Fibrament is a pretty poor conductor, but it's not as bad as quarry tiles. Well, as Jeff V proved by his quarry tile experiment, Fibrament is better than some quarry tiles, but not others.  I have a theory that some brands of quarry tiles are more porous, and where you have air you have poor conductivity. Bottom line, unless Fibrament is lying about the experiment (and I don't think they are) the tile they used WAS a poorer conductor than the Fibrament.  Heat IS heat.  A poorer conductor at a higher temperature will transfer the same amount of energy to dough as a higher conductor at a lower temperature.  Fibrament's experiment reveals what's been known in the breadmaking community for hundreds of years.  The faster you can transfer energy to dough, be it by using a higher temperature or a more conductive stone, the better the oven spring. You may notice that Fibrament doesn't show any tests comparing it to other materials.  That's because it would lose.

I'll try to thin the rim out next time I do this test.

What happened, Chau? ;D

Water takes a tremendous amount of energy to change phases (liquid to gas). Dough contains a lot of water.  As you increase the thickness of the dough, that's that much water that has to boil before it can become steam and do it's oven spring magic. As you go thinner with the dough, the impact of energy transfer (oven temp and conductivity) increases dramatically.

If you look at the high temp crumbs, the voids are noticeably larger. You'll also notice that the high temp (and high hydration) crumbs have greater stress fractures on the skin (revealing greater internal steam pressure). This is why bread is scored pre-baking- scoring  cuts the faster setting, constricting top layer of dough, which allows for greater expansion.  As you go thinner, scoring isn't necessary because there's much less disparity between the inner and outer dough temps so the rim expands much more evenly (and far faster). I think the most telling aspect of this experiment is that the only ball that didn't split was the low hydration, low temp one.

You have to go thinner, Chau. As you go thinner, the results will become much more dramatic.  'At temps of 500-700F and at hydration ratios of 65-75%' the differences will be very discernible with relatively thin (Neapolitan/Street/Elite) dough.


Regarding the difficulty you're having mixing low hydration dough, speed is important.  I haven't paid attention to what your dough method is as of late, but if it's not straight (all ingredients mixed at once), it should be for lower hydration.  Staggering will let some of the flour hydrate- once that happens, forget getting all the flour assimilated.  Even going with a straight dough method involves some fancy footwork.  Adding dry to wet helps. I've also found that quickly slicing the combined ingredients (in a star pattern) helps to let the water get into the flour without too much gluten forming.  After slicing, I then mix it quickly.   After it's come together a bit, I'll then knead it by hand in the bowl, then transfer it to the bench and knead it some more.  I find kneading it in a bowl first creates for a much cleaner bowl and a much cleaner bench. The most important aspect of the whole process, though, is speed, once water meets flour, you have a few seconds of wetness, but after that, the flour sucks it right up.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 06:35:46 PM by scott123 »

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2010, 07:18:33 PM »
You want me to repeat the experiment? Really Scott??  :-X I may do that down the road but right now I seriously need a break from pizza making. But then again I know I've said that before.

2 reasons why I didn't go thinner. 1) I forgot I even said that and 2) I stated that I decided at the last minute to make bread as I felt it would give a more fair and better visual result. I was hoping that we could see overall spring differences but didn't foresee the doming effect happening.  Also I didn't trust my stretching technique to produce comparable thickness in rims.  I wanted a flat rim so that we could really see a difference but everytime I stretch pizza dough, I seem to not be able to avoid leaving some small rim in place.  I had briefly considered rolling the skins out but that would limit crust rise so instead I opted to make the bread. 

« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 09:01:28 PM by Jackie Tran »


 

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