Author Topic: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?  (Read 6909 times)

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scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2010, 07:46:23 PM »
No, Chau, I'm not saying you have to repeat the experiment.  I'm just saying that in order to produce results that are easier to discern, the thickness factor is critical. Even though the thickness mitigated discernability, I still think there's enough evidence there to prove both hydration's and heat's considerable impact on oven spring.

Look at the split crust one more time.  What force could be acting upon the dough to make it split in such a manner?  I'm telling you, it's not yeast.  It's steam.  As you look at the tops of the rolls (and to an extent, the crumb), the impact of heat and water are clearly evident.

LH Low Temp (LT) - no splitting
HH LT - a little splitting
LH HT - more splitting
HH HT - the most splitting
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:50:51 PM by scott123 »


Offline Chet

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2010, 08:00:52 PM »


  I am following this topic a little, now I am not an expert at this pizza making with only 4 yrs under my belt, I will say that yesterdays pizza was the same recipe I have been using with one exception I lowered the hydration from 67% to 65% it probably does not mean alot, but the oven spring was better at 67% than 65% and ever since we got this new oven I am able to bake at higher temps, and someone ask if higher temps help oven spring, I say yes and I agree with what Scott is saying about the steam.


   Chet

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2010, 08:31:47 PM »
Scott, I'm not disagreeing that these 2 factors do have an impact, I'm just not convinced yet that the impact is that appreciable or significant (alongside all the other unnamed factors that affect crust rise).  But as you have been right so many times before I will take your word on it. Like I said before, my goal in doing this was just to learn about the effects and I believe that I have. Im not trying to disprove physics or the laws of nature here.  Regardless of what I think though, I'm not changing my regimen for perfect pizza either: that's high hydration and relatively high heat. This little test is actually giving me confidence to lower the heat by 50deg from 700 to 650 to increase rim crunchiness without the fear of losing much crust rise.

Thank you for the straight mix regimen for a low hydration dough. I will definitely give it a try, so I may be repeating this test sooner than I expect. :)  Scott, should I sauce and cheese the test pies as well or is just stretching it ultra thin sufficient.  Another reason I was hesitant to make pizzas is b/c when I stretch by hand I almost can not help but leave a little rim.  I know some members are able to stretch the skin thin without leaving a rim but that is something that is hard for me to do.

Chet - do you have any pictures to show us what you talking about here?  Does anyone else have any pictures we can look at to show a significant difference in pizza crust rise with a temperature and/or hydration difference assuming all other factors are the same?  ???

Chau
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 08:58:12 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Chet

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2010, 09:18:17 PM »
  Jackie

  If you look at my pizza's from last week and this week, you can see the spring difference quite noticeably.


    Chet

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2010, 09:33:44 PM »
Chet are you referring to these pies here?
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11358.msg103321.html#msg103321
Reply #3
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11388.msg103831.html#msg103831

If so I can see what you mean.  A few questions?  Are both pies about the same weight in Gms?  Do you remember weighing them out or is there a size that you always make, like say 300gm? So the difference in hydration ratio is a mere 2%?  I posted about the inaccuracies of calculating hydration ratios here.  Reply #4
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11346.0.html
I can easily use up 1-2gm of bench flour and if that isn't calculated in it can easily throw off your HR by 1%.  I assume you treat all your doughs the same, meaning you tend to use the same amount of bench flour but still, I'm a bit skeptical that a 2% difference would show such a big difference in the end result.  I'm skeptical b/c i couldn't show the same result today with a 9% HR difference.  But again, I made bread and you made pizza so I'm comparing apples and oranges here. 

In the first link, you show us some of your dough balls in the proofing box.  I see different size doughballs.  Can you be sure you didn't use different size doughballs for the above pies?  If those aren't the ones you are referring to, can you post the links for me so I can see what you are talking about?

2ndly, do you always stretch the dough out leaving approximately the same size rim?  I think that I usually stretch leaving approximately the same size rim, but how can I be sure?  That's why I opted to make the round bread disk.  You can measure diameter and thickness. 

I know you said in one of those threads that you didn't take a crumb shot, but a crumb shot here would help drive the point home.

Also test pies should have the same sauce and toppings just to keep things fair.  I know you didn't make those pies with this test in mind and I also know that my first test pies were sauce differently.  Yet another reason why I went with the straight dough bake.  Sorry to be picky but to get to the bottom of this we have to be.  I'm sure you understand.   ;)

We need more submissions folks...

Chau
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 09:44:18 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Chet

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2010, 09:03:50 AM »
  Jackie

   the dough balls I make are only 2 weights, a 300gram for the Neo pies and a 22oz ball for Sicilian type and as for the pic it would be this week vs last week.

this week http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11388.msg103831.html#msg103831


  and last weeks http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11359.0.html


   Chet

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2010, 10:53:50 AM »
Chet those pies look good.  I wouldn't call it a significant difference but I DO see the difference though and I also know that pictures can look very different from seeing in person so I will take your word on that.  The first definitely looks to have more of the bigger voids or at least I think that's what I'm seeing.  So everything is the same just a 2% hydration difference? 

Thanks for posting the link.  I'm really interested in trying Scott's quick knead method for a lower hydration dough.  It would be a first for me.  I think if I lower my hydration by 5%, it would actually improve my pizza. 

JT
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 10:55:28 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2010, 10:05:58 AM »
Repeated the experiment last night using Scott's quick straight knead method for the low hydration dough.  Happy to say I was able to easily mix a 65% hydration ratio dough for the test.   So the test was a 65% vs 75% dough baked at low and high temps (400 vs 700F+)

These balls were made with the essentially the same recipe as above.  They were proofed and baked within 3 hours or so.  Both batches were subjected to the same quick knead method.  The higher HR dough ended up needing an extra round of folding/balling to achieve a similar ball shape prior to proofing.

First pics.  Doughballs after kneading and after proofing.  Doughballs were 90gm each and stretched out as thin as I could get them ~9" basically windowpaning them.   The lower hydration (LH) doughs were much harder to stretch out than the HH doughs and thus they got a bit more handling/manipulation.  This may translate into "pressing the rim" a bit which could have a small effect on limiting oven spring.  I  tried to avoid the rim but it was difficult.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 11:00:46 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2010, 10:27:19 AM »
Here is the low hydration & high hydration bake at low temp (400) .  Took about 3 mins to puff up and baked an extra min.

First pics LHLT vs HHLT.  LH is red and HH is green.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2010, 10:34:04 AM »
a few more pics of the LHLT vs HHLT bake.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2010, 10:38:11 AM »
Here is the LHHT vs HHHT bake.   Temps were around 700F+.  Both disks puffed up in under 2 min and baked an extra min. 

Again LH is red and HH is green.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2010, 10:49:47 AM »
Pics comparing the LT vs HT bake.  Low temps on the left, high temps on the right.

scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2010, 11:56:49 AM »
Conclusion?  ;D

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2010, 12:22:08 PM »
Conclusion?  ;D

What else do you want me to admit that I havent already Scott.  :-[  :-D JK. I have my own conclusions but thought I would let folks make up there own minds.  I did see a bigger difference like you said by thinning out the skins.  Was it significant?  That's a bit subjective but the difference isn't as much as I thought I would see considering a 10% hydration ratio gap.   Aside from the big @ss airbubble on the HHHT dough, the rims are similar, but I can definitely see the differences.
It appears that temp makes a bigger difference than hydration but that they both do affect crust rise.
Chau
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 06:38:24 PM by Jackie Tran »

scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2010, 06:32:51 PM »
 :-D

One important aspect regarding hydration is that, as I mentioned before, it takes a lot of energy to turn water into steam. Whenever you add water to dough without increasing the heat, theoretically, you're slowing down the reaction (to an extent) and potentially creating less spring. The only way to judge the impact of hydration fairly is to, as you incrementally add water, you should be adding a proportional amount of heat.

In essence, the hydration test wasn't really the LHLT vs. HHLT or HHHT vs HHHT, but, rather, it was the LHLT vs HHHT comparison.

Temperature is somewhat independent.  Generally speaking, you can increase the temp and the oven spring will increase accordingly.   Hydration, though, is completely dependent on heat.  It's not just about adding water to the equation, but about adding steam. Steam is your star player- and to produce more steam, you have to add both water and heat.

For every temperature a pizza can be baked at, there's going to be a max hydration sweet spot, where the dough doesn't burn, but enough heat is transferred to convert all that water into steam in the quickest manner possible. Assuming, of course, oven spring is your goal.

Thickness factor (as I've mentioned before), heat and hydration.  You're just boiling water using the measured combination of these three components to produce the most steam in the shortest amount of time.  This is why all the legendary Neo-NY/Elite pizzas are very thin, relatively high hydration (balanced, of course for, crispiness) and baked in hot, thermally massive ovens.  Street style works the same way, but at a slightly lower temp.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 06:44:42 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2010, 06:55:00 PM »
ahhh that makes a lot of sense Scott.  I do see the huge difference b/t the LHLT vs HHHT.  Glad to know my suspicions for my perfect pies do match this scenario of high hydration plus relatively high heat. 

I am however still experimenting to find that sweet spot as far as hydration goes.  Too high and I get great spring but not enough of that water is baked off leading to a softened rim after it sits a bit.   Lower the heat a bit and bake longer and that should solve the problem.  I can also lower the hydration a bit but risk losing that loftiness in the crumb.  I can offset that by adding oil but then I lose a bit of the speckling in the crust.  Hmmm so what to do?  Back to the drawing board.  All fun stuff though.

One of the things I also learned from our exchange is that  I can let a dough proof to double and beyond without overferementing.   I was gun shy but I think it was more b/c of a few overfermented doughs AND baking HG doughs at too high of temps in a limited MBE oven. 

I have learned a ton from these experiments and our exchanged.   As always many thanks for the info and guidance Scott.
   
Chau

scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2010, 07:31:56 PM »
You're welcome, Chau. My pleasure  :)

As you're noticing, there's no free lunch in the oven spring equation.  If you take away water to increase crispiness, you lose a little of that treasured spring. If you scale back the heat, same thing. You can't have your pizza and eat it too :)

If you're considering amping your pre-bake volume a bit, I think that's a great idea.  It'll depend on the flour, but I think that by taking the dough past double and opening it gently, you'll increase the pre-bake CO2, which, in turn, might help cancel out the oven spring loss from slightly less water.

Btw, a crunchy exterior and a moist crumb are a bit counterproductive. The pizza may come out of the oven crisp, but if the crumb is still moist, that moisture will migrate as the pizza sits and it will soften the rim. Every time I attempt to increase the crunch, I lose some of the moistness to the crumb. You may find a happy medium, but, for me, a moist crumb was more important than a crispy exterior, so I've just settled for a soft crust. Within the last month or so, I've been throwing around the idea of multiple versions of my pizza- not necessarily departures from the style, but versions where different traits are highlighted- such as a crispy pie and moist one. I already have a charred/non charred variation- so with crispy/moist, that might be 4 different versions. Maybe.

As far as oil's impact- definitely, you'll lose the speckling and achieve more even browning.  You'll also achieve a more tender crumb.  As far as oil adding extensibility and/or volume to the finished product- THAT I'd like to see you test, because honestly, I'm not entirely certain as to oil's impact on volume.  Also, depending on the quantity of oil, you might see a crispier exterior with oil- something else that I'd like to see tested. We know some things about oil, but that knowledge base has a lot of room for growth.

Offline norma427

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2010, 08:07:06 PM »

Within the last month or so, I've been throwing around the idea of multiple versions of my pizza- not necessarily departures from the style, but versions where different traits are highlighted- such as a crispy pie and moist one. I already have a charred/non charred variation- so with crispy/moist, that might be 4 different versions. Maybe.


Scott123,

Itís really great you are helping Jackie Tran and others, including myself on their pizza making adventures.  I have learned a great deal from you. 

I just wonder if you ever posted any pictures of your different pizza making adventures, so other members could see what you can achieve?  I would like to be able to see pictures of your pies.  I have often wondered what they look like.  In my opinion I think other members would like to see your charred and non charred versions of your pizzas and how we could improve, by looking at your pictures.

Thanks,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2010, 08:17:34 PM »
Scott testing effects of oil shouldn't be too difficult considering I'm a lot more consistent with my technique and methods these days.   The only tricky part (well not really) is to taste the crust at different time increments after each bake since I can only bake one pie at a time.  I'll probably save this for after I settle on a "perfect" hydration ratio.  Crunchy exterior and soft moist interior is a bit counteractive, but there is a happy medium there.  I've achieve that perfection twice before and I just need to revisit it a few more times.  I've been confident that I'll be able to replicate it so I've just been fooling around with other flours and variables and such.  

As far as loosing speckling with oil, I know that applies to same day doughs but wonder if it will with a 24h+ room ferment.  I know I don't like cold ferments but wonder if I can find a happy medium in a 24 hour room temp ferment.   I also wonder if the crust coloration will show through (on a 24h room ferment) despite having oil in the formulation.

I've got a couple of ideas to try with oil.  I'll see about starting the oil experiments in the next couple of weeks.  

Norma, I think Scott mentioned that he needed to get some new batteries for his camera but would post pics once he did. 

Chau
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 08:04:50 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline sear

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2010, 12:41:35 PM »
Scott123,

Itís really great you are helping Jackie Tran and others, including myself on their pizza making adventures.  I have learned a great deal from you. 

I just wonder if you ever posted any pictures of your different pizza making adventures, so other members could see what you can achieve?  I would like to be able to see pictures of your pies.  I have often wondered what they look like.  In my opinion I think other members would like to see your charred and non charred versions of your pizzas and how we could improve, by looking at your pictures.

Thanks,

Norma

I recently asked the same thing, Something about he needs a new Flux-Capacitor but it is currently in the DeLorean on a mission "Back to the Future" or maybe it was just a battery ... i forget  :-D