Author Topic: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?  (Read 8247 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2010, 10:38:11 AM »
Here is the LHHT vs HHHT bake.   Temps were around 700F+.  Both disks puffed up in under 2 min and baked an extra min. 

Again LH is red and HH is green.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2010, 10:49:47 AM »
Pics comparing the LT vs HT bake.  Low temps on the left, high temps on the right.

scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2010, 11:56:49 AM »
Conclusion?  ;D

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2010, 12:22:08 PM »
Conclusion?  ;D

What else do you want me to admit that I havent already Scott.  :-[  :-D JK. I have my own conclusions but thought I would let folks make up there own minds.  I did see a bigger difference like you said by thinning out the skins.  Was it significant?  That's a bit subjective but the difference isn't as much as I thought I would see considering a 10% hydration ratio gap.   Aside from the big @ss airbubble on the HHHT dough, the rims are similar, but I can definitely see the differences.
It appears that temp makes a bigger difference than hydration but that they both do affect crust rise.
Chau
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 06:38:24 PM by Jackie Tran »

scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2010, 06:32:51 PM »
 :-D

One important aspect regarding hydration is that, as I mentioned before, it takes a lot of energy to turn water into steam. Whenever you add water to dough without increasing the heat, theoretically, you're slowing down the reaction (to an extent) and potentially creating less spring. The only way to judge the impact of hydration fairly is to, as you incrementally add water, you should be adding a proportional amount of heat.

In essence, the hydration test wasn't really the LHLT vs. HHLT or HHHT vs HHHT, but, rather, it was the LHLT vs HHHT comparison.

Temperature is somewhat independent.  Generally speaking, you can increase the temp and the oven spring will increase accordingly.   Hydration, though, is completely dependent on heat.  It's not just about adding water to the equation, but about adding steam. Steam is your star player- and to produce more steam, you have to add both water and heat.

For every temperature a pizza can be baked at, there's going to be a max hydration sweet spot, where the dough doesn't burn, but enough heat is transferred to convert all that water into steam in the quickest manner possible. Assuming, of course, oven spring is your goal.

Thickness factor (as I've mentioned before), heat and hydration.  You're just boiling water using the measured combination of these three components to produce the most steam in the shortest amount of time.  This is why all the legendary Neo-NY/Elite pizzas are very thin, relatively high hydration (balanced, of course for, crispiness) and baked in hot, thermally massive ovens.  Street style works the same way, but at a slightly lower temp.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 06:44:42 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2010, 06:55:00 PM »
ahhh that makes a lot of sense Scott.  I do see the huge difference b/t the LHLT vs HHHT.  Glad to know my suspicions for my perfect pies do match this scenario of high hydration plus relatively high heat. 

I am however still experimenting to find that sweet spot as far as hydration goes.  Too high and I get great spring but not enough of that water is baked off leading to a softened rim after it sits a bit.   Lower the heat a bit and bake longer and that should solve the problem.  I can also lower the hydration a bit but risk losing that loftiness in the crumb.  I can offset that by adding oil but then I lose a bit of the speckling in the crust.  Hmmm so what to do?  Back to the drawing board.  All fun stuff though.

One of the things I also learned from our exchange is that  I can let a dough proof to double and beyond without overferementing.   I was gun shy but I think it was more b/c of a few overfermented doughs AND baking HG doughs at too high of temps in a limited MBE oven. 

I have learned a ton from these experiments and our exchanged.   As always many thanks for the info and guidance Scott.
   
Chau

scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2010, 07:31:56 PM »
You're welcome, Chau. My pleasure  :)

As you're noticing, there's no free lunch in the oven spring equation.  If you take away water to increase crispiness, you lose a little of that treasured spring. If you scale back the heat, same thing. You can't have your pizza and eat it too :)

If you're considering amping your pre-bake volume a bit, I think that's a great idea.  It'll depend on the flour, but I think that by taking the dough past double and opening it gently, you'll increase the pre-bake CO2, which, in turn, might help cancel out the oven spring loss from slightly less water.

Btw, a crunchy exterior and a moist crumb are a bit counterproductive. The pizza may come out of the oven crisp, but if the crumb is still moist, that moisture will migrate as the pizza sits and it will soften the rim. Every time I attempt to increase the crunch, I lose some of the moistness to the crumb. You may find a happy medium, but, for me, a moist crumb was more important than a crispy exterior, so I've just settled for a soft crust. Within the last month or so, I've been throwing around the idea of multiple versions of my pizza- not necessarily departures from the style, but versions where different traits are highlighted- such as a crispy pie and moist one. I already have a charred/non charred variation- so with crispy/moist, that might be 4 different versions. Maybe.

As far as oil's impact- definitely, you'll lose the speckling and achieve more even browning.  You'll also achieve a more tender crumb.  As far as oil adding extensibility and/or volume to the finished product- THAT I'd like to see you test, because honestly, I'm not entirely certain as to oil's impact on volume.  Also, depending on the quantity of oil, you might see a crispier exterior with oil- something else that I'd like to see tested. We know some things about oil, but that knowledge base has a lot of room for growth.

Offline norma427

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2010, 08:07:06 PM »

Within the last month or so, I've been throwing around the idea of multiple versions of my pizza- not necessarily departures from the style, but versions where different traits are highlighted- such as a crispy pie and moist one. I already have a charred/non charred variation- so with crispy/moist, that might be 4 different versions. Maybe.


Scott123,

Itís really great you are helping Jackie Tran and others, including myself on their pizza making adventures.  I have learned a great deal from you. 

I just wonder if you ever posted any pictures of your different pizza making adventures, so other members could see what you can achieve?  I would like to be able to see pictures of your pies.  I have often wondered what they look like.  In my opinion I think other members would like to see your charred and non charred versions of your pizzas and how we could improve, by looking at your pictures.

Thanks,

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2010, 08:17:34 PM »
Scott testing effects of oil shouldn't be too difficult considering I'm a lot more consistent with my technique and methods these days.   The only tricky part (well not really) is to taste the crust at different time increments after each bake since I can only bake one pie at a time.  I'll probably save this for after I settle on a "perfect" hydration ratio.  Crunchy exterior and soft moist interior is a bit counteractive, but there is a happy medium there.  I've achieve that perfection twice before and I just need to revisit it a few more times.  I've been confident that I'll be able to replicate it so I've just been fooling around with other flours and variables and such.  

As far as loosing speckling with oil, I know that applies to same day doughs but wonder if it will with a 24h+ room ferment.  I know I don't like cold ferments but wonder if I can find a happy medium in a 24 hour room temp ferment.   I also wonder if the crust coloration will show through (on a 24h room ferment) despite having oil in the formulation.

I've got a couple of ideas to try with oil.  I'll see about starting the oil experiments in the next couple of weeks.  

Norma, I think Scott mentioned that he needed to get some new batteries for his camera but would post pics once he did. 

Chau
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 08:04:50 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline sear

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2010, 12:41:35 PM »
Scott123,

Itís really great you are helping Jackie Tran and others, including myself on their pizza making adventures.  I have learned a great deal from you. 

I just wonder if you ever posted any pictures of your different pizza making adventures, so other members could see what you can achieve?  I would like to be able to see pictures of your pies.  I have often wondered what they look like.  In my opinion I think other members would like to see your charred and non charred versions of your pizzas and how we could improve, by looking at your pictures.

Thanks,

Norma

I recently asked the same thing, Something about he needs a new Flux-Capacitor but it is currently in the DeLorean on a mission "Back to the Future" or maybe it was just a battery ... i forget  :-D

Offline norma427

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2010, 12:56:32 PM »
I recently asked the same thing, Something about he needs a new Flux-Capacitor but it is currently in the DeLorean on a mission "Back to the Future" or maybe it was just a battery ... i forget  :-D

sear,

That was too funny.   :-D  I never read the post where Scott123 said he needed new batteries for his camera, but was wondering why he never posted any pictures.  With his knowledge he sure should be able to make some great looking pies.  :)  That is why I asked.  ::)

Norma

scott123

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2010, 01:09:39 PM »
 :-D

Norma, as lame as it sounds, the battery on my camera is toast.  If I turn it on, I get a few seconds and then it shuts right off.  A big part of the procrastination is indecision over whether or not I want to put more money into this camera.  I'm sort of waffling back and forth between buying a battery or investing the money in a Flip video camera. Decisions, decisions  :)

Offline sear

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Re: Does a higher baking temperature result in a bigger oven spring?
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2010, 01:52:59 PM »
:-D

Norma, as lame as it sounds, the battery on my camera is toast.  If I turn it on, I get a few seconds and then it shuts right off.  A big part of the procrastination is indecision over whether or not I want to put more money into this camera.  I'm sort of waffling back and forth between buying a battery or investing the money in a Flip video camera. Decisions, decisions  :)

Just need to spark that fire, i will try to fan the flames occasionally until we see some results  ;D